Guns

[Rallywagon]

Seems like someone is under the false pretense that the 2nd is about home protection.... it's not. It is absolutely about self and civil defense, but not against robbers.

 

[ryzno]

However your country is still not taking any action to adress these school mass shootings and that what makes me somewhat stubborn on this topic.

We have somewhat, but you don't like the idea of arming teachers or armed officers or our schools security like a jail.
I actually like the fact someone can't randomly walk into my sons school.
I like the fact 2 sets of security doors need to be opened by the receptionist for someone to get in or out.
We have larger issues in our schools than shootings.
We had a lady down here a few years ago trying to act as a family friend, trying to pick up kids.

Do I like how times have changed since I went to school? No. But I'm glad I moved to an area that has what I consider a safer school district.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

No it doesnt. The anology would be more accurate if the threat of a of a fire is the same as a robbery or assasination.

40-50% of homefires are cooking related. So do you cook with guns?

Edit: added comment

Why would I cook with guns, you're taking an analogy of one taking preemptive measure to protect themselves, or be safe far too literally. Or better yet trying to apply it all back to guns as if it is so black and white. So if you want to ask do I do other things in life with safety in mind yes, if you want to be asinine well that's on you.

Point is I own a gun to defend myself, end of story.

 

[Danoff]

I understand completely. In your case I also agree, but I am speaking in the context of the higher risk in the USA of Mass shootings at schools. We already discussed that you shouldnt need to sell or give up your guns. You should not have any problem of getting a permit in the context of stricter gun laws. You also agreed that gun availability should be adressed. However your country is still not taking any action to adress these school mass shootings and that what makes me somewhat stubborn on this topic.

We keep doing this. You make a statement that suggests that Americans are crazy for wanting to take personal responsibility for their safety - that they're misguided in their notions of even being able to do so, that they're clinging to an antiquated sense of individuality that no longer exists, and that those people are the very problem. And then I push back on that because I think all of that is completely off base. Eventually you agree with me, and we start talking about other issues.

If you want to discuss how to address mass shooting (and again, you should be thinking of mass killing, not shooting), the way to foster that conversation is NOT to tell gun owners that they're part of the problem and delusional.

If we're brainstorming ideas on how to make schools safer. I think maybe eliminating backpacks is actually feasible. Metal detectors, bag (purse) screening, and go all electronic/paperless inside. Eliminate lockers too. Gym clothes issued at and washed by the school. Maybe start the intense entrance security at the middle school level. I doubt there are many 8 year olds that are ready to shoot up their classmates.

 

[PocketZeven]

We have somewhat, but you don't like the idea of arming teachers or armed officers or our schools security like a jail.
I actually like the fact someone can't randomly walk into my sons school.
I like the fact 2 sets of security doors need to be opened by the receptionist for someone to get in or out.
We have larger issues in our schools than shootings.
We had a lady down here a few years ago trying to act as a family friend, trying to pick up kids.

Do I like how times have changed since I went to school? No. But I'm glad I moved to an area that has what I consider a safer school district.

We keep doing this. You make a statement that suggests that Americans are crazy for wanting to take personal responsibility for their safety - that they're misguided in their notions of even being able to do so, that they're clinging to an antiquated sense of individuality that no longer exists, and that those people are the very problem. And then I push back on that because I think all of that is completely off base. Eventually you agree with me, and we start talking about other issues.

If you want to discuss how to address mass shooting (and again, you should be thinking of mass killing, not shooting), the way to foster that conversation is NOT to tell gun owners that they're part of the problem and delusional.

If we're brainstorming ideas on how to make schools safer. I think maybe eliminating backpacks is actually feasible. Metal detectors, bag (purse) screening, and go all electronic/paperless inside. Eliminate lockers too. Gym clothes issued at and washed by the school. Maybe start the intense entrance security at the middle school level. I doubt there are many 8 year olds that are ready to shoot up their classmates.

That is the point. Schools shouldnt need any of those safety measures you suggested. You just need to take a look at the rest of the developed world. But I tried to explain my view on guns in the USA in relation to mass shootings and a lot of people dont seem to share the same point of view. I guess me not being american perhaps doesnt give me insight in the complexity of the issue among the pro-gun people, because of the lack of pro-gun people here in europe.

I never mentioned gunowners of being delusional. The whole point was built on the premise of the easy availability and great number of guns in circulation.

edit: added comment

 

[Rallywagon]

That is the point. Schools shouldnt need any of those safety measures you suggested. You just need to take a look at the rest of the developed world. But I tried to explain my view on guns in the USA in relation to mass shootings and a lot of people dont seem to share the same point of view. I guess me not being american perhaps doesnt give me insight in the complexity of the issue among the pro-gun people, because of the lack of pro-gun people here in europe.

I never mentioned gunowners of being delusional. The whole point was built on the premise of the easy availability and great number of guns in circulation.

edit: added comment

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_primary_schools
Except it can happen in those other countries? Should they be looking to ban knives? Actually, didn't that happen in England?
You can wish for a peaceful society until you're blue in the face. Restricting what amounts to a tool won't accomplish that, it will just restrict the rights of law abiding citizens. Something like removing the stigma of and providing better mental healthcare on the other hand, would likely to a lot more good.

 

[ryzno]

Schools shouldnt need any of those safety measures you suggested.

Why not? The lady I mentioned trying to pick up kids acting as a family friend didn't have a gun.
We have weirdos here that have a thing for children and we have weirdos who have no problem snatching up a kid to bring up as their own cause they couldn't have a child for whatever reason.
While the latter is very rare, sadly the former isn't as rare.

 

[PocketZeven]

Why not? The lady I mentioned trying to pick up kids acting as a family friend didn't have a gun.
We have weirdos here that have a thing for children and we have weirdos who have no problem snatching up a kid to bring up as their own cause they couldn't have a child for whatever reason.
While the latter is very rare, sadly the former isn't as rare.

Unlike mass shooters we do have weirdos trying to snatch children here too. I presume the USA use prevention methods like educating the children about not trusting strangers, Teachers (preschool, elementaryschool) going outside with the children, written protocols on who picks up the children etc. However schools still dont need metal detectors, intense entrance security, bag inspections, armed security etc. here in the Netherlands. And I am certain you didnt have these in your youth either.

 

[ryzno]

I presume the USA use prevention methods like educating the children about not trusting strangers, Teachers (preschool, elementaryschool) going outside with the children, written protocols on who picks up the children etc.

We do, it still doesn't stop people from trying and some kids still being gullible enough to get in the car.

However schools still dont need metal detectors, intense entrance security, bag inspections, armed security etc. here in the Netherlands

Ok, y'all don't think you need them, but we do.

And I am certain you didnt have these in your youth either.

At the beginning no but as I grew up, I grew up with these being implemented.
I am class of '04 even though I dropped out in '02, anywho...

My sons school(elementary) doesn't have metal detectors and they don't search their bags. They only have security doors.
When I went to elementary they left the front door open all day.

When I went to middle school they started implementing metal detectors, security doors and an armed officer.

When I started high school in 2000 they had bag searching and the clear bag rule(oddly enough; weed, cigarettes, phones and CD players(I feel old referring to a CD player )were the most common thing confiscated.
We had security doors. We had multiple armed police officers and they randomly did quarterly locker searches with dogs.(again cigarettes, weed and other drugs were the most common thing confiscated(and the student was usually arrested)

I don't know if growing up with it made me numb to it, if that's what you might think. But it feels normal to me, I see no problem with it.

 

[PocketZeven]

We do, it still doesn't stop people from trying and some kids still being gullible enough to get in the car.

Ok, y'all don't think you need them, but we do.

At the beginning no but as I grew up, I grew up with these being implemented.
I am class of '04 even though I dropped out in '02, anywho...

My sons school(elementary) doesn't have metal detectors and they don't search their bags. They only have security doors.
When I went to elementary they left the front door open all day.

When I went to middle school they started implementing metal detectors, security doors and an armed officer.

When I started high school in 2000 they had bag searching and the clear bag rule(oddly enough; weed, cigarettes, phones and CD players(I feel old referring to a CD player )were the most common thing confiscated.
We had security doors. We had multiple armed police officers and they randomly did quarterly locker searches with dogs.(again cigarettes, weed and other drugs were the most common thing confiscated(and the student was usually arrested)

I don't know if growing up with it made me numb to it, if that's what you might think. But it feels normal to me, I see no problem with it.

In your specific example an armed officer, security door, metal detector or gun also wouldnt have prevented a gullible child going with a stranger.

I guess that going to school in the USA is a whole different world. The only place I can think of here where you have security doors, metal detectors, bag checks and armed officers is jail.

 

[Johnnypenso]

In your specific example an armed officer, security door, metal detector or gun also wouldnt have prevented a gullible child going with a stranger.

I guess that going to school in the USA is a whole different world. The only place I can think of here where you have security doors, metal detectors, bag checks and armed officers is jail.

You've never been to an airport?

 

[PocketZeven]

You've never been to an airport?

That is the other example. But I cant imagine going to school in those circumstances.

 

[Rallywagon]

I was class of 2000. Every school, from affluent Novi too meager Waterford had security doors. Thats from the mid 80s on. Every school in Waterford has at least one police officer as well.
Just like Ryzno, I have no issues with any of it. I know of three attempts to kidnap that were repelled because of these security features at my daughter's school.

 

[PocketZeven]

I was class of 2000. Every school, from affluent Novi too meager Waterford had security doors. Thats from the mid 80s on. Every school in Waterford has at least one police officer as well.
Just like Ryzno, I have no issues with any of it. I know of the attempts to kidnap that were repelled because of these security features at my daughter's school.

Wow That is really hard for me to imagine. I guess it is an even bigger culture difference then I thought. You can walk in and out of most schools here without any problem. And to be clear I still think my children are in safe care.

 

[Danoff]

That is the point. Schools shouldnt need any of those safety measures you suggested. You just need to take a look at the rest of the developed world. But I tried to explain my view on guns in the USA in relation to mass shootings and a lot of people dont seem to share the same point of view. I guess me not being american perhaps doesnt give me insight in the complexity of the issue among the pro-gun people, because of the lack of pro-gun people here in europe.

I never mentioned gunowners of being delusional. The whole point was built on the premise of the easy availability and great number of guns in circulation.

edit: added comment

Not interested in any possible measure except the one you want to push? I'm pretty sure my suggestions would work better (here, in reality in the US).

The delusional bit was the part where you tried to say that people who believe their guns make them safer are wrong.

 

[PocketZeven]

Not interested in any possible measure except the one you want to push? I'm pretty sure my suggestions would work better (here, in reality in the US).

The delusional bit was the part where you tried to say that people who believe their guns make them safer are wrong.

The point is that in my country there is no need for extreme measures like metal detectors and armed officers. What makes the USA that much unsafer to schoolchildren. Nr.1 on that list is the US gunculture.

My whole debate about guns was based on the fact (not opinion) that there is little evidence that owning guns make you safer. There is nothing delusional about that. Delusional is when you believe that your organisation is running like a well-oiled machine with a running criminal investigation in collusion with foreign entities, 3 books and an anonymous op-ed that corroborate each other that your organisation is in chaos, 20-30 employees in key postitions being fired or resigning in your first 2 years in office (while gloating you were only going to hire the best people).

 

[ryzno]

I believe @Danoff would be the first person to agree we aren't a well oiled machine.

20-30 employees in key postitions being fired or resigning in your first 2 years in office (while gloating you were only going to hire the best people

He did say he'd drain the swamp Also Presidents inherit a lot of the previous Presidents cabinet.
Sounds like you are just angry at America period...

 

[Danoff]

The point is that in my country there is no need for extreme measures like metal detectors and armed officers. What makes the USA that much unsafer to schoolchildren. Nr.1 on that list is the US gunculture.

Crime. Crime is what makes people unsafe. In the US we have a lot of it, both with guns and without.

My whole debate about guns was based on the fact (not opinion) that there is little evidence that owning guns make you safer. There is nothing delusional about that. Delusional is when you believe that your organisation is running like a well-oiled machine with a running criminal investigation in collusion with foreign entities, 3 books and an anonymous op-ed that corroborate each other that your organisation is in chaos, 20-30 employees in key postitions being fired or resigning in your first 2 years in office (while gloating you were only going to hire the best people).

I'm not going to defend Trump if that's what you're after.

 

[PocketZeven]

I believe @Danoff would be the first person to agree we aren't a well oiled machine.

He did say he'd drain the swamp Also Presidents inherit a lot of the previous Presidents cabinet.
Sounds like you are just angry at America period...

Not angry just amazed. Just dont understand how supporters of him cant see through the obvious lies.

Crime. Crime is what makes people unsafe. In the US we have a lot of it, both with guns and without.



I'm not going to defend Trump if that's what you're after.

I am curious how high crime relates to the mass school shootings. I understand it is a crime in itself, but most of the shooters were not careercriminals. They were mostly white american males. According to the article below half did not even show evidence of mental illness.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/us/mass-murderers.html

 

[Johnnypenso]

I am curious how high crime relates to the mass school shootings. I understand it is a crime in itself, but most of the shooters were not careercriminals. They were mostly white american males. According to the article below half did not even show evidence of mental illness.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/us/mass-murderers.html

According to Newsweek, if you account for the vast majority of shooters being male, white versions of that male are actually under represented in terms of percentage of population. They come in at 54% of all shooters but given that 98% are men and white people are 63% of the population, that's less than you'd expect by random chance.

 

[Danoff]

I am curious how high crime relates to the mass school shootings. I understand it is a crime in itself, but most of the shooters were not careercriminals. They were mostly white american males. According to the article below half did not even show evidence of mental illness.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/us/mass-murderers.html

Somehow I keep forgetting how seriously focused you are on this one segment of crime. I was talking about what makes people less safe in general, not school mass shootings in particular. A few years back the body of a missing child who was abducted around her school was recovered in my "area" (two towns over). I'll spare you the details. But suffice it to say that she was not a victim of a mass shooting or gun violence.

You'll have to bear with me as, when I talk about safety, I struggle keep these kinds of things out of my mind so that I can focus entirely on one specific type of one specific crime.

Edit:

Also here in CO we just (allegedly) had a man kill his entire family (pregnant wife and 2 kids). That's a tough one for me to erase from my mind when we talk about safety too. Of course it was not a mass shooting, it was strangulation. So I guess it's not something that needs to be addressed.

 

[PocketZeven]

According to Newsweek, if you account for the vast majority of shooters being male, white versions of that male are actually under represented in terms of percentage of population. They come in at 54% of all shooters but given that 98% are men and white people are 63% of the population, that's less than you'd expect by random chance.

I was specifically about Mass shootings. They are almost all white and male.

Like in our country crimes like robbery, homicide in the criminal circuit tends to be represented by ethnic groups living in poverty. I do want to point out this is not because of ethnicity, but primeraly because of poverty.

Somehow I keep forgetting how seriously focused you are on this one segment of crime. I was talking about what makes people less safe in general, not school mass shootings in particular. A few years back the body of a missing child who was abducted around her school was recovered in my "area" (two towns over). I'll spare you the details. But suffice it to say that she was not a victim of a mass shooting or gun violence.

You'll have to bear with me as, when I talk about safety, I struggle keep these kinds of things out of my mind so that I can focus entirely on one specific type of one specific crime.

Edit:

Also here in CO we just (allegedly) had a man kill his entire family (pregnant wife and 2 kids). That's a tough one for me to erase from my mind when we talk about safety too. Of course it was not a mass shooting, it was strangulation. So I guess it's not something that needs to be addressed.

I am focused on this segment of crime, because it is hardly found elsewhere.

A simple google search could not find relevant comparative stats for child abductions, deaths and abuse between USA and europe. We have horrible crimes like these too, but cant say with any certainty if the situation is any worse in the USA or europe. But what makes Mass (school) shootings rather unique is the random killing of innocent victims. In child homicide/abductions/rape cases it is most often then not, a relative.

 

[Danoff]

But what makes Mass (school) shootings rather unique is the random killing of innocent victims. In child homicide/abductions/rape cases it is most often then not, a relative.

It is the same phenomenon. Unhealthy people acting against those around them. Mass shootings deserve some attention because we can take security measures to limit them - especially at schools. But I'm not interested in dogmatically going after that one facet of the problem. We should take some additional security measures where we can (especially at schools) and move on, because that is exactly what those who want to kill will do, move on to the next thing they can think of. We need to address this culturally.

 

[PocketZeven]

It is the same phenomenon. Unhealthy people acting against those around them. Mass shootings deserve some attention because we can take security measures to limit them - especially at schools. But I'm not interested in dogmatically going after that one facet of the problem. We should take some additional security measures where we can (especially at schools) and move on, because that is exactly what those who want to kill will do, move on to the next thing they can think of. We need to address this culturally.

I still think it is in a category of its own. If you research it, you will notice how rarely it happens outside the USA.

 

[ryzno]

If you research it, you will notice how rarely it happens outside the USA.

We don't need to research it. You've already proven that and said that countless times.
Maybe we should ban NASCAR since they race so rarely race outside the US?
Maybe we should ban driving period since a drivers ed class isn't required for a license unlike other parts of the world and we have more accidents?
We are America, we are a large country with a lot of people, we are always going to have more problems than a country almost twice the size of New Jersey. We are also almost 237 times larger than your Netherlands.

 

[Michael88]

The US is at 11th place in the statics for most deaths by shootings sprees per million people, there is countries in Europe far ahead of the US. Serbia, France, Albania, Macedonia, Belgium Finland - just to name a few. And most of them have a far more restrictive gun law and much more restricted availability of guns compared to the US.

If guns were a problem why is the place with the most liberal gun laws and statistically most gun owners in the world one of the safest places on earth? If guns were a problem Switzerland would be smoldering crater by now, but the exact opposite is true. Its almost like living conditions, health care, schooling systems, immigration and wealth played a far bigger role in those shootings than the actual availability of guns. People have such a good life in Switzerland they simply don't feel like flipping and commit violent crimes.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I was specifically about Mass shootings. They are almost all white and male.
.

As was I. Probably a good idea to click the link and read the actual information that I gave you before responding. Once you control for the fact that almost all of them are male, whites as a sub-group are under represented.

 

[PocketZeven]

We don't need to research it. You've already proven that and said that countless times.
Maybe we should ban NASCAR since they race so rarely race outside the US?
Maybe we should ban driving period since a drivers ed class isn't required for a license unlike other parts of the world and we have more accidents?
We are America, we are a large country with a lot of people, we are always going to have more problems than a country almost twice the size of New Jersey. We are also almost 237 times larger than your Netherlands.

Dont be a troll. I am still speaking of mass school shootings. I already explained my motivation. Being a large country does not justify the high amount of mass school shootings. China has about the same landmass and 4 times as many people, but do not have this high number of mass shootings. Europe has 1.5 times more people yet there are far less mass shootings. To put it in better perspective to counter your argument the US has 5% of the worlds population and 31% of global mass shootings. And when you factor in school shootings (not neccesarily mass) the US had 288 incidents since 2009 with the next major developed countries (including China and europe) only having 27 combined!

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/21/us/school-shooting-us-versus-world-trnd/index.html

As was I. Probably a good idea to click the link and read the actual information that I gave you before responding. Once you control for the fact that almost all of them are male, whites as a sub-group are under represented.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476445/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-gender/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/

You are correct in your observation. I could not find the stats for school shootings, but I think it is disproportionally male and white.

 

[Danoff]

Dont be a troll. I am still speaking of mass school shootings. I already explained my motivation. Being a large country does not justify the high amount of mass school shootings. China has about the same landmass and 4 times as many people, but do not have this high number of mass shootings. Europe has 1.5 times more people yet there are far less mass shootings. To put it in better perspective to counter your argument the US has 5% of the worlds population and 31% of global mass shootings. And when you factor in school shootings (not neccesarily mass) the US had 288 incidents since 2009 with the next major developed countries (including China and europe) only having 27 combined!

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/21/us/school-shooting-us-versus-world-trnd/index.html



https://www.statista.com/statistics/476445/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-gender/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/

Still sticking with shootings? Check out the terrorist attack statistics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_terrorist_incidents_by_country

Here's a breakdown of what this article refers to as "rampage killers":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

Yea, I'd expect the US to have more mass shootings that a country in which all guns are illegal. That doesn't mean you're safer there.

Edit:

Woah, vehicular homicide rampage killing in Canada this year? I thought you guys were all nice, eh?


Edit 2:

Man, that rampage killers wikipedia entry is really amazing. They didn't leave out the Germanwings and Malaysian flights either (listed under "other"). Paddock gets more credit that those pilots for being a mass murderer. But they a LOT killed more.

Edit 3:

Looks like just over 250 total death toll for mass shootings in the US in 2017. Roughly equivalent to the one malaysian airlines event. The entire "epidemic" of mass shootings in the US (for 2017) is roughly the same body count as that one event (and similar for Egypt Air).

 

[PocketZeven]

Still sticking with shootings? Check out the terrorist attack statistics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_terrorist_incidents_by_country

Here's a breakdown of what this article refers to as "rampage killers":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

Yea, I'd expect the US to have more mass shootings that a country in which all guns are illegal. That doesn't mean you're safer there.

Edit:

Woah, vehicular homicide rampage killing in Canada this year? I thought you guys were all nice, eh?

Although horrible, terrorist attacks have a total different motivation and cause as mass school shootings. But back to the topic I am concentrating is that the US has massive disappropiate number of school shootings then anywhere in the world or combined. What is the cause in your opinion?