Guns

[Tornado]

Why don't you trust your local security forces?

Cops cannot be in every place at once.

That there are so many wrong things in x (say, education, healthcare, economics, job deamnds, etc.) that people have to rob to survive. Maybe that's the problem.

Not everyone who commits crimes commit them out of a need for survival. Even if society was perfect in all those areas, there would be crime.

 

[Solid Lifters]

One of the most repeated quotes in this thread is:


I ask: Why are you so afraid of being robbed, raped, etc. that you need a gun?

Life can be violent in the US. We have a lot of criminals who act very violently and wont hesitate to take your life. A firearm would protect use when or if we get attacked by one of these criminals. A firearm is essential to survival.

Why don't you trust your local security forces?

It's foolish to depend on others to protect you. Especially in the US, where the police have proven time and time again when the crap hits the fan you're on your own.

Why not try to lower the number of criminals? Maybe that's the problem:

And a solution to that problem is shoot the criminals when they attack you. They either go to the hospital and then off to jail, or it's off to the morgue. Either case, we'd lower the number criminals with our firearms.

That there are so many wrong things in x (say, education, healthcare, economics, job deamnds, etc.) that people have to rob to survive. Maybe that's the problem.
Well, one part of it.

No, it has nothing to do with education, health care, economics or jobs. It's about sick, evil, violent assholes who deserve a bullet in the chest or head if they try any violent crime on me or members of my family. Here in the states, life must be different than the life you have in Barcelona.

Recently, a cute, tiny 17 year-old girl was murdered very violently by a violent repeat offender out on parole from jail. He didn't have to murder her, but he did it anyway. Where was the police to protect her?

He was a repeat offender with a LONG history of violent crimes. Now, we have to wait for the death penalty to finish him off. Too bad he couldn't have tried that on somebody who had a permit to carry a concealed weapon. He would have been finished right then and there.

 

[Exorcet]

Life can be violent in the US. We have a lot of criminals who act very violently and wont hesitate to take your life. A firearm would protect use when or if we get attacked by one of these criminals. A firearm is essential to survival.


...

It's foolish to depend on others to protect you. Especially in the US, where the police have proven time and time again when the crap hits the fan you're on your own.

Is this the same US I live in? You make it sound like it's an uncivilized land populated with barbarians.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Is this the same US I live in? You make it sound like it's an uncivilized land populated with barbarians.

The US is a pretty big place.

 

[Jay]

rimfire? I'd rather not google that, what is it?

The primer is built into the rim, the firing pin crushes the rim to set it off. The shell is not reloadable, used mostly in cheap small caliber rounds like the .22.

Is this the same US I live in? You make it sound like it's an uncivilized land populated with barbarians.

I have travelled across the US on multiple occasions into Canada and most everyone you talk to there describes the US the same way... "Did you dodge many bullets".

All up in all my time I have spent in the US (totals about 1 year) I haven't seen any crime.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Is this the same US I live in? You make it sound like it's an uncivilized land populated with barbarians.

I guess you haven't seen the crap I have. I've seen my fair share of murders, killings and shootings.

Plus, I don't have to make the US sound like anything. It does it all by itself.

 

[Omnis]

All up in all my time I have spent in the US (totals about 1 year) I haven't seen any crime.

Because we have guns.

One of the most repeated quotes in this thread is:


I ask: Why are you so afraid of being robbed, raped, etc. that you need a gun?
Why don't you trust your local security forces?
Why not try to lower the number of criminals? Maybe that's the problem:
That there are so many wrong things in x (say, education, healthcare, economics, job deamnds, etc.) that people have to rob to survive. Maybe that's the problem.
Well, one part of it.

In most of America, the police response time is at least 15 minutes. Some places take even longer. But all it takes is a few seconds for you to get killed. This effectively makes the police a clean-up squad.

The problem is that the robber chose to use violence. It's pretty black and white. For example, the USA gave Al Qaeda every reason to hate it, yet the terrorists are still wrong and still the problem for choosing to ameliorate their situations through violence. Same thing applies to violent robbers. You can say, "Oh, they're an unfortunate product of their society," but when it comes down to it, two wrongs never make a right.

 

[orimarc]

I'm not saying that ALL criminals do it for survival. I say that some do it. Rapists and serial killers don't do it for survival, for example.
And talking about Al-Qaeda: I'm sure that, if you asked anonymously, a lot of Islam people would prefer a diplomatic solution instead. It just happened that the guys that liked violence anwsered.

 

[Duke]

I have travelled across the US on multiple occasions into Canada and most everyone you talk to there describes the US the same way... "Did you dodge many bullets".

That's because some holier-than-thou Canadians love to talk crap about the barbaric US.

I've lived in the US for 44 years, some of those years in pretty dodgy urban neighborhoods. I've heard non-recreational gunfire precisely once in that time. I've never been robbed or mugged, though I have been burgled.

 

[Jay]

That's because some holier-than-thou Canadians love to talk crap about the barbaric US.

Indeed, including some of my family I have in Canada, I like to make fun and stir them up about it and I try to knock them off their cloud a little but I think they like that view point too much.

 

[Danoff]

I'm not saying that ALL criminals do it for survival. I say that some do it.

Changes nothing. Their motives do not make their actions acceptable.

I'm sure that, if you asked anonymously, a lot of Islam people would prefer a diplomatic solution instead. It just happened that the guys that liked violence anwsered.

I hope you're not talking about Iraq.

 

[Josh]

Because we have guns.



In most of America, the police response time is at least 15 minutes. Some places take even longer. But all it takes is a few seconds for you to get killed. This effectively makes the police a clean-up squad.

.

A couple of months ago there was a terrible news story spreading across firearm forums like wildfire with the creepiest audio tape along with it. Essentially it was a 911 call recording of a 30 something year old woman who, after being shot in the thigh, was holding off 3 people in her own home with her husbands handgun - just after she witnessed them shoot her husband in the head, and her 9/10 year old daughter in the head as well. She was on the phone with the operator crying her ass off, and shooting at these people still in her home trying to kill her.

Police showed up 18 1/2 minutes later.


Hearing a woman crying and asking the 911 operator why someone would kill her husband and baby is truly a horrible thing.

 

[Jay]

What happened to her?

 

[mafia_boy]

I'm curious to know this one too Josh. I hope it wasn't the inevitable.

I'd echo the feelings of the American's who have seen the violent side of things. Down in Sydney, it is absolutely screwed. The police do become a clean-up squad in some areas because they don't want to mess with the local ghetto populations there (Redfern, Macquarie Fields, etc.) and with some crimes like home invasions the police will take up to and over an hour or even more to turn up which means worst case scenario in some cases (like 2 weeks ago with the whole family at Epping).

 

[TofuStoreDrift]

Our biggest problem in America with criminals is we don't properly punish bad deeds. You can get large sentences for drug crimes, but murder is just a slap on the wrist. A buddy of mine spent 3 years behind bars for statutory rape (she was 17 but that doesn't make it right) and his cell mate had a 3 years sentence as well for killing a infant. Total bs if you ask me. If we brought back public hangings, that would probably scare the crap out of most would be criminals and then most Americans wouldn't need weapons. Although I would still keep mine for sport.

 

[Josh]

Gina Marie Gonzalez - she survived after shooting/wounding one attacker. All fled, but were later caught. Not sure about anyone else, but I would've done everything in my power to see to it that justice was served in my house after witnessing them murder my family like that. Sad stuff. Try and find the 911 audio recording, and see if you can get through it all without a tear or two poppin' up. Sad stuff.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/WireStory?id=7867231&page=1

 

[Joel]

That's because some holier-than-thou Canadians love to talk crap about the barbaric US.

.

Yes, I'm a proud Canadian, but it disgusts me that people from my country can talk about Americans like that. The US is a beautiful country, and virtually every country has a few "bad" neighbourhoods, but the good far outweighs the bad. (In fact, I was on vacation in the US this week, and I had a great time. Mt. Washington was awesome!


Back on topic though, that story about Gina Marie Gonzalez is horrible. She is one brave woman.

 

[frestkd]

hmm I'm not going to say anything ... my opinions usually gets me kick out for months at a time. Gun control is an idea that is pure evil in nature. Just have to look human history to see how much death it has caused.

 

[Joel]

hmm I'm not going to say anything ... my opinions usually gets me kick out for months at a time. Gun control is an idea that is pure evil in nature. Just have to look human history to see how much death it has caused.

*cough* Treaty of Versailles *cough*

 

[FoolKiller]

It appears that at the president's recent town hall meetings the media are getting an education on gun rights and what is actually legal.

Most recently is this:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/17/obama.protest.rifle/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

PHOENIX, Arizona (CNN) -- A man toting an assault rifle was among a dozen protesters carrying weapons while demonstrating outside President Obama's speech to veterans on Monday, but no laws were broken. It was the second instance in recent days in which weapons have been seen near presidential events.

A man is shown legally carrying a rifle at a protest against President Obama on Monday in Phoenix, Arizona.

Video from the protest in Phoenix, Arizona, shows the man standing with other protesters, with the rifle slung over his right shoulder.

Phoenix police said authorities monitored about a dozen people carrying weapons while peacefully demonstrating.

"It was a group interested in exercising the right to bear arms," police spokesman Sgt. Andy Hill said.

Arizona law has nothing in the books regulating assault rifles, and only requires permits for carrying concealed weapons. So despite the man's proximity to the president, there were no charges or arrests to be made. Hill said officers explained the law to some people who were upset about the presence of weapons at the protest. Watch the rifle being legally carried at rally »

"I come from another state where 'open carry' is legal, but no one does it, so the police don't really know about it and they harass people, arrest people falsely," the man, who wasn't identified, said in an interview aired by CNN affiliate KNVX. "I think that people need to get out and do it more so that they get kind of conditioned to it."

Gun-toting protesters have demonstrated around the president before. Last week, a man protesting outside Obama's town hall meeting in New Hampshire had a gun strapped to his thigh. That state also doesn't require a license for open carry.

U.S. Secret Service spokesman Ed Donovan acknowledged the incidents in New Hampshire and Arizona, but said he was not aware of any other recent events where protesters attended with open weapons. He said there was no indication that anyone had organized the incidents.

Asked whether the individuals carrying weapons jeopardized the safety of the president, Donovan said, "Of course not."

The individuals would never have gotten in close proximity to the president, regardless of any state laws on openly carrying weapons, he said. A venue is considered a federal site when the Secret Service is protecting the president and weapons are not allowed on a federal site, he added.

In both instances, the men carrying weapons were outside the venues where Obama was speaking.

"We pay attention to this obviously ... to someone with a firearm when they open carry even when they are within state law," Donovan said. "We work with our law enforcement counterparts to make sure laws and regulations in their states are enforced."

Highlighted the part I found to be important. The Secret Service says there was not a safety issue.

Then in New Hampshire a man carried a gun on a holster to a town hall protest and MSNBC just can't wrap their heads around it.



And the guy was able to take on Chris Matthews without coming off like an idiot, despite how far off topic Matthews went to try and make him out to be a crazy kook.



"Who would be dumb enough to carry an unloaded firearm?" That says it all right there.

So, protesters are giving both the president and the mainstream media an education on actual gun rights. In many places you can walk around with a gun openly visible. We don't, but that doesn't mean anyone that does is looking to cause violence. Law abiding citizens can, and do, own and carry around a gun without people getting killed, including at heated political rallies.

 

[Solid Lifters]

The first video is filled with people so stupid and ignorant that I cannot comment on it any further than I have.

The second, with Chris Matthews, is really showing how he feels it's 'insensitive' for a man to enjoy his civil liberties. Chris Matthews is a selfish baby.

Next.

 

[NISM0_SKYLINE]

Wow, that first video is sad. Some people need to relax, I really doubt someone would be there that early and wait to shoot him. Its a gun, just because someone has one doesn't mean he's going to shoot somebody. People have to chill out.

 

[Joel]

Wow, that first video is sad. Some people need to relax, I really doubt someone would be there that early and wait to shoot him. Its a gun, just because someone has one doesn't mean he's going to shoot somebody. People have to chill out.

Agreed, it was a stupid move, but seriously. OMG A GUN!!!!! what he's doing MUST be illegal now! (sarcasm)

 

[FoolKiller]

The second, with Chris Matthews, is really showing how he feels it's 'insensitive' for a man to enjoy his civil liberties. Chris Matthews is a selfish baby.

I'm not sure if I am more disturbed by the fact that Chris Matthews feels it is a civil liberty that is dangerous to be expressed (and why does it matter if the guy is a birther or not?) and shouldn't be or the fact that most people did not know that was a civil liberty that most people in the United States have.

Reading commentary articles on this, including the usually conservative Powerline Blog, people are calling it stupid, reckless, and many are asking why these guys haven't been arrested because "that can't be legal."

Personally, I initially thought the guy was being a bit foolish, because it is obvious it would stir up trouble, but seeing how this is going down I realize that these people are simply educating the masses on civil liberties. If people don't recognize their rights then they won't even notice when they lose them. To see supposed legal experts acting shocked on MSNBC is very telling of just how many rights people don't realize they have.

 

[Omnis]

That's why they're called demonstrations.

 

[Solid Lifters]

That's why they're called demonstrations.

And the farmer had a dog, and Bingo was his name-o!

 

[otago]

Life can be violent in the US.

Check other countries. US is a quietest place I've ever lived in.

Don't understand why do some people in US carry on regular basis two pounds of useless metal. Though I enjoy target shooting, especially with Magnum 0.44. You definitely can have some fun in US. LOL

 

[Keef]

Don't understand why do some people in US carry on regular basis two pounds of useless metal.

It's not useless. You'd find that out if your life was ever threatened by somebody else crazy enough to actually use their weapon. It happens every now and then. In a place where a one isn't allowed to carry a weapon they would be helpless to defend their own life if confronted by one of these crazies.

Speaking of crazies, one of my friends was telling me about how some retard pulled a gun on him at our usual car meet last Wednesday night. That's the second time it's happened in the last 2 years. This is a peaceful end of town, and I have no idea what these guys are thinking coming in and stirring up a bunch of trouble. Josh doesn't, but I know for a fact that some of our car buddies have a license and do carry a concealed weapon with them. Once the dude realized Josh was calling the cops he threw his gun back in the trunk and sped away. I assume if I was there and carrying that I'd have just hoped he left without any confrontation. It's pretty intimidating to think that you'd be faced with a decision like that.

 

[Sureboss]

Or you do what I do and live in a town where the arthritic crippled population couldn't pull a trigger...

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Check other countries. US is a quietest place I've ever lived in.

Just because there are more violent countries makes it useless to carry a gun in the US? And you draw that conclusion by only experiencing a tiny fraction of the US.