Historic Sports Cars!

[Jim Prower]

Valiant Charger R/T with a 265 Hemi? that's a new one.

wonder what that thing'd do with a 5.7, or an SRT 6.1, or even a 426....

 

[kit_fisto]

I want to mention a few more variants of the Ford GT40. I'm confused as to consider it an American car, or a European car. Remember around 2002? Ford was going to name their lovely car the GT40, but the British had the naming rights to the GT40, so it was considered the Ford GT. I've seen this more as a British car from an American-based company. There were some other variatons of the GT40. My only problem is, should I label the different Le Mans-winning GT40s as American cars, or European?

I think the answer to your question is that it was both (European and American). In 1963 FoMoCo moved to consolidate the sports-car reputation it had been unexpectedly given by Shelby's Cobras in international sports car and endurance racing. The Cobra effort had been successful beyond reasonable expectation in Europe and Ford's backing of Shelby had gained it considerable prestige. With an outright win at Le Mans as its goal, Ford set up Ford Advanced Vehicles (FAV) in England in 1963 to accomplish it. Its principals were designer Roy Lunn, John Wyer and Eric Broadley and the latter's Lola firm was in effect temporarily taken over for the project with his Ford-engined Lola GT as its first model. The first GT40 was completed in April 1964 but the 1964 season proved to be a disappointment with the car showing weaknesses in road-holding, braking, and its transmission. As a result, Ford decided to fall back on its more successful former motorsports model where it supplied backing for individual teams/manufacturers and left it to them to develop the cars. Thus, Shelby-American in Venice, CA and Ford's subsidiary at Dearborn, MI, Kar Kraft (with preparation by their NASCAR specialists, Holman & Moody) were given the task of developing the Ford GTs, while FAV became mainly responsible for basic manufacturing.

I happened to be a car-mad teen at the time and used to regularly visit the Shelby "Snake Works" in Venice, where I witnessed their race shop basically remanufacture the FAV product into the first successful 1965 GT40s. Meanwhile, Kar Kraft was hard at work on the next generation of Ford GT, the 1966 427 Mk 2 versions (which were more successful yet), and these succeeded in finally winning the 1966 24 Hours of Le Mans fielded by Shelby, Holman & Moody, and the Alan Mann Racing organization (which more or less handled the European distribution of the then mostly American product to private teams). In the interim, Shelby American moved to a much larger facility on the grounds of LAX (the Los Angeles international airport) and were engaged in developing the Ford "J Car" into what would eventually become the Le Mans all-conquering Ford Mk. 4 of 1967.

I have only my impression to go on here but it seems that the Europeans were never very comfortable with the big-engined Ford GTs (meaning the Mk. 2 and Mk. 4), whose engines must have seemed gas-guzzling behemoths to them -- as opposed to the familiarity with them given Shelby by his California hot rodding experience or H&M's use of them in NASCAR. So FAV and the Mann organization seemed to concentrate more on developing the small-block, thin-wall GT40 variants for use by private European teams. This stood them in good stead when FoMoCo essentially withdrew from international competition with the big-engined (7-liters) cars immediately after the 1967 Le Mans. The Ford GT baton was picked up by FAV's John Wyer and his Gulf-sponsored JWA team, which racked up an impressive number of wins for the small-block (4.7 and 5-liters) GT40s in international championships in 1968 and 1969 (winning Le Mans both years and the International Championship of Makes in '69). Wyer's streamlined GT40 "Mirage" derivative was probably the most attractive (and effective) of the GT40 models. The GT40s were essentially legislated out of prototype competition when the FIA imposed a 3-liter limit on Group 6 prototypes in 1968 (although, as noted, they continued to win as homologated Group 5 sports cars against much later designs for a few years after the rules change).

Back home (the U.S.), except for Sebring, Daytona and Watkins Glen, there really wasn't a place for the GT40 to race (although there was a special Mk. 2 and Mk. 4 model that each raced in the Can-Am occasionally), so the older Ford GT race models represented in GT4 were mostly raced in Europe and consequently were identified more with that continent than the one where they were developed (except, arguably, the Mirages). Also, the tooling for the GT40s remained in England and when the classic sports car craze of the 1980s hit full stride, I believe the jigs and tooling were resurrected to manufacture new GT40s to the old specification. The licensing arrangement for this may be why the GT40 name was unavailable to FoMoCo for its new Ford GT street car?

 

[JohnBM01]

Thank you for that clarification, Kit. 👍 Carry on the discussion, people.

 

[Schrodes]

At this point it might be worth noting that part of the reason why Ford was so intent on building a successful car for endurance racing was to beat Ferrari. Ford attempted to buy Ferrari in the early 60's and Enzo Ferrari had agreed to the terms. As the deal was almost done, Fiat came to the party with financial backing for Ferrari which would guarantee Ferraris independence. Basically, Ferrari had used Ford to attract increased bids and in 1963 the deal was called off.

 

[kit_fisto]

i am obsessed with 60s and 70s cadillacs. when i first got gt4, i saw the cadillac brand and got very exited, only to find that the only car was a 2002 model.

there should be about 8 classic caddys in gt5

When I saw that Cadillac was included as a manufacturer in GT4 I was also surprised (and a bit disappointed) that PD chose to include only the Cien concept car. Given the other LM cars in the game I fully expected to see the Cadillac ALMS GTP car.

On a more historic note, there was a time in the early 1950's when the Cadillac engine was the engine to have in one's sports racer. The famous Allard J2X, for instance, was a limited production racing/touring car produced between 1951 and 1954 that successfully integrated existing American V-8 power plants into its cars to threaten the dominance of racing circuits by larger producers. Factory Allard J2Xs were usually equipped with a Ford-Mercury flathead (or even exported without an engine), but it was the 331 cu. in. Cadillac and the Chrysler 331 Hemi Firepower that made its exploits legendary.

The Allard's racing notoriety came at the hands of individuals who are now legends in their own rights – Sydney Allard, Zora Arkus Duntov (Corvette pioneer), General Curtis LeMay (first commander of the Strategic Air Command), Carroll Shelby (entire 1953 season), as well as movie star, Steve McQueen. [The following photo is of a replica.]

Allard made a comeback, of sorts, in 1993 with a prototype for the ALMS that would not be out of place IMO in GT5.

 

[kit_fisto]

I think the Corvette illustrates how PD could do a lot in GT5 with resources it already possesses in GT4.

In terms of historic Corvettes GT4 has a 1954 Corvette convertible (C1), a 1963 Corvette "Stingray" coupe (C2) and Z06 (C2) race car, and a 1969 Corvette "Stingray" L46 350 (C3) 1969. As the game's "C" designations indicate, between 1953 and 1983 there were essentially only three Corvette models: 1953-1962 (C1), 1963-1967 (C2), and 1968-1982 (C3). Although GM stylists made sure that each model year had its own distinctive look, the basic mechanical underpinnings of the cars of each generation (e.g. C1, C2, & C3) remained basically unchanged and, most important, the dimensional "box" within which each model fit was unchanged. So, as far as PD is concerned the physical space taken up by a 1968 Corvette is essentially identical to that taken up by a 1982 Corvette. This means IMO that PD could render 15 very different-looking Corvette models between 1969 & 1982 (as opposed, say, to 15 very similar-looking Skyline models) and from a physical point of view they would be virtually interchangeable.

Why would PD want to do this? Well, for one thing, the Corvette has a huge fan following worldwide (but especially in the U.S.). For another the Corvette has a long and distinguished racing record internationally (not just the U.S.). Much more so than, say, the Slyline. Which makes it much more relevant for a game that ostensibly puts an emphasis on racing pedigree.

Practically from the moment that the Corvette received the legendary Chevrolet small-block V8 in 1955, the car started racking up racing victories and national championships. Between 1956, when Dr. Dick "The Flying Dentist" Thompson earned SCCA C Production honors, and 1971 Corvettes won 19 national SCCA championships.

In 1960, millionaire American sportsman Briggs Cunningham entered two new Corvettes (C1) at Le Mans, where they finished 8th and 10th.

For decades afterward the Corvette became a regular fixture at the 24 Hours of Le Mans and other international endurance races because of its ability to deliver Ferrari performance at Chevrolet prices.

As a prime example, this 1968 Corvette,

took 7th in class and 15th overall at the 1972 24-Hours of Le Mans race. Although the Dave Heinz-Bob Johnson team was a private effort, Chevrolet unofficially supported them and provided the team with an L-88 427 ci engine and M-22 "Rock Crusher" transmission. During practice the day before the race, the car ran over a banner and hit a wall. Working overnight, the damage was repaired and the car raced at Le Mans with "racer’s tape" and rivets holding the front end on. The success at Le Mans wasn’t a fluke. The car also finished 3rd overall at the 1973 24-hours of Daytona, 6th overall at both the 1972 and 1973 Daytona races, and started on the pole at the 1973 12-hours of Sebring.

Take a look at any racing footage of the Le Mans race between 1968 and the late 1970's and one is likely to see one or more C2 competition-model Corvettes in the background vying for a class win.

Not only were competition Corvettes thrilling the crowds in Europe with their thundering big-block presence and taking all the championship gold in class at home, but the Corvette "specials" made for racing by GM and others would be right at home at the auto show (then and now).

Like the legendary Corvette Grand Sports, designed to take on the Cobras mano-a-mano:

Or the 1957 Corvette SS raced at Sebring:

Or the original 1959 "Stingray" designed and built by then vice president of General Motors Styling, William L. Mitchell, and campaigned as an independent on the sports car club circuit in 1959 and 1960.

I don't know about you but I'd much rather own and drive one of these cars than another indistinguishable edition of Japanese street car.

 

[kit_fisto]

Another GT4 resource of which PD could make better use is its Jaguar E-type, lightweight competition versions of which (both coup and roadster) formed some of the only real opposition to the Ferrari GTO and Cobras in the GT classes of the 1960's.

Jaguar E-type lightweight:

While they're at it, how about one each of the E-type's famous predecessors, the Le Mans-winning C-type:

And D-type:

And its road-going cousin, the XKSS:

 

[kit_fisto]

If we're going to have Aston Martin in GT5, how about some of the cars that made its competition reputation? Like the

Aston Martin DB4GT Zagato

The 1958 Aston Martin DBR1

Or the car that made Aston Martin the only British manufacturer to win the Sports Car Constructors' Championship, the 1959 DBR2:

Or the last Aston Martin competition cars (before the modern era), Project 212

and 215 Zagato:

Then there's the 1989 Aston Martin AMR1:

And today's ALMS car, the DBR9:

 

[Force-Feedback]

And what about the other DBR9's?

Especially the one that won the FIA GT Tourist Trophy at Silverstone last year...

I know there's not much of a difference, I just prefer the liveries of a DBR9 that's proved itself...

 

[kit_fisto]

And what about the other DBR9's?

Especially the one that won the FIA GT Tourist Trophy at Silverstone last year...

I know there's not much of a difference, I just prefer the liveries of a DBR9 that's proved itself...

Once PD rendered one DBR9, five minutes effort could give us them both.

* * *

Someone mentioned homemade American sports cars of the 50's and 60's? There were enough of them to fill a couple of books -- I know of at least two that were written about them. The usual modus operandi was to "hot rod" a European sports car -- Arnolt to Ferrari to Jaguar to Lister -- with homegrown Detroit iron. When the sports cars evolved from front-engined to mid-engined -- from companies like Lotus, Elva, Merlyn, Genie, Cooper, Lola, etc. -- the trend essentially gave birth to the Can-Am. I'd love to see some of these cars in GT5, especially as the use of multiple powerplants (manufacturers) would allow PD multiple uses for the same basic model.

There was also a lively race scene, here and abroad, for the under-2-liter pure sports racers. Cars like the Lotus 11, 15, 19 and 23, Lola Mk. I, etc. were a staple of both American and British club racing and international events like Le Mans. As such, they'd fit quite well with mixed company -- meaning both historic street and race cars -- as well as provide the basis for their own race series. If GT5 has programming for more that a six-car grid, there might even be the possibility for multiple classes in the endurance races as IRL. One might, for instance, enter one's Lotus XI Le Mans in the 24 Hours of Le Mans in quest of an 1100-cc class win and prize money among the bigger, faster cars. This sort of scheme could double or triple the use of some of the historic cars and give PD lots of options for realistic mixed grids.

Back on the topic of homemade American sports cars, a particular favorite of mine was the Bill Thomas Cheetah of 1963-64. It was intended as a homologated "Cobra killer" until a fire destroyed the factory and tooling after only 23 were made (although Thomas is currently manufacturing replicas). They were mostly powered by Chevrolet engines (although I once saw a Cadillac-powered one). It would be great to see it in GT5.

 

[JohnBM01]

I remembered in "Victory by Design: Aston Martin" that the Aston Martin AMR-1 was a great car, but had the program cancelled or whatever. It's a very nice car.

I think PD needs to look into those open-top European sportscars of the glory days (after 1950 and before 1970). The Jaguar C-Type and D-Type are two wonderful machines. I personally can see myself playing GT5 and listening to these things at full sound with my little 3D driver in motion. I also sense myself in those open-top Aston Martins from Post #38. I still wish I knew more about those classic sports cars. Of course, more than I know now. That Jaguar XKSS and other variations of the XKE Lightweight coupes would also be interesting. I love Jaguar. I also like Aston Martin.

On the American front, a good number of Corvettes and Mustangs (especially the 1960s ones) would make me happy on the American front. My new favorite Corvettes are the 1957 and 1958 models. They are beautiful automobiles. Just look at the Barrett-Jackson auctions. Corvettes are probably the most sought after cars in America, and maybe the world too. You almost CAN'T go wrong with a Corvette. I'm saying this out of respect, not in terms of patriotism.

With the Asia-Pacific, I would be interested in a few racing models for the Nissan 240Z and the Toyota 2000GT. I love both of these cars with their rather European design to them. I wish I could say more with Japanese classics, but I can't think of much else right now. I'll make up for it in a future post. Ja?

 

[kit_fisto]

According to rumors PD is having difficulty and/or is reluctant to license either Ferrari or Lamborghini. Long before either firm existed, though, Maserati was the Italian racecar to have. How about including some classic Maseratis in GT5?

Like their top-of-the-line late 1950's Tipo 450S in roadster,

Bill Krause in a 450S

or coupe form:

450 S Costin-Zagato LM57

Or, maybe, the V12 Tipo 350S:

Or their small-bore siblings, the Tipo 300S,

and Tipo 250S:

For many years, a Maserati Berlinetta was as desirable (or more so) than a Ferrari Berlinetta. Like the A6GS

Then there's the legendary Tipo 60 "Birdcage"

and Tipo 61 "Birdcage" in short,

or long-tailed Le Mans versions:

Tipo 61 "Birdcage" LM

Or the last of the Maserati coupes to challenge Le Mans...

the Tipo 151 Barchetta of the early 1960's

If something a little more contemportary is desired, in the late 1990's Maserati worked up the Tipo Barchetta for its own self-contained racing series:

 

[TheCracker]

I'd welcome any new historic racing cars in GT5 - but for me the main thing would be to have enough cars of a certain era to be able to have a decent race with. What i'm saying is that whilst having something like a Toyota 7 or Chapparel 2J in GT4 was great - but you need cars of a similar period of time to make up a meaningful race. The Toyota 7 has never and will never race against a Jag XJR-9 or Peugeot 905 (in fact it never raced against anything, but thats a different matter) What it needs is some early 70's Can-Ams to run against.

Its the same with most of the historic racers or even road cars in GranTurismo - there needs to be something to define that cars particular place in history ie more cars of a similar ilk. Its great to have the Cobra to use - but slightly pointless if you can only get a decent, fair race in it against much more modern cars.

 

[JohnBM01]

-NOTE-

I thought my original post wasn't made, so I did this post again. The original post can be found in Post #41 { https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2202378&postcount=41 }. I apologize for double-posting.

 

[Dr.AK]

I have to agree, that's a very nice text!


As to the topic of Historic Sports Cars that should be included in GT5, I strongly wish for some old race cars from the seventies. Maybe something from the "Group 2" rules like these:

Ford Escort

BMW 3.0 CSL

Ford Capri

BMW 2002

Toyota Celica

Opel Commodore

And the NSU TT

Even just a handfull of these old cars, so you can race against a field of them would make me very happy... It wouldn't even have to be different cars, just two or three different cars with for example 3 different paintjobs for each car would suffice.

 

[SouthShoreSRT]

And the NSU TT

Man, I've never seen or heard of that thing, but after that pic, I really wish it was in the game!

 

[JohnBM01]

I'm not really a Maserati fan to be honest. I think PD can look to the popular "Victory by Design" DVD series { http://www.victorybydesign.com/ } for automobiles they can pick up on. The existing brands in GT games have a number of old and new classics they can pick up on. The cars have been driven by one of my favorite personalities, Alain de Cadenet. Three of the companies featured in the series are in GT4- Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, and Jaguar. PD can check out some of the sweetest models out there in these DVDs. These alone will help boost European car appeal in the game. The challenge afterwards is in looking for automobiles outside of Europe and Japan.

 

[Dimitrov]

Lucky me I live in Gtplanet.net
All that information makes me proud of being part of this community.

Congratulations!

 

[JohnBM01]

I know we're talking sports cars, but there are a number of people who want to see more classic rally cars from Group B or whatever. I just don't know enough history to consider myself a true veteran of classic sports cars. I'd surely want to see the classic Mini return. It has the classic front-engine/FWD layout which became the stanard for many passenger cars afterwards. The classic Minis have taken on many names in rally and touring car racing, kicking ass in both fields. It's one of the most awesome cars even if it's underpowered and too small. At least it showed that great cars didn't have to be insanely powerful or cost about six figures. For what it was, that's the classic I'd want to see return to GT5. Even include that Works Mini Cooper from GT2, and I'll be straight for GT5.

 

[Schrodes]

It sounds like Group N which is Historic Touring Cars.
http://www.historictouringcars.com.au/cars.html

 

[GilesGuthrie]

The Australian Sports Cars discussion, starting with Schrodes' excellent history, is now here.

 

[TheCracker]

Nice pix Schrodes 👍

 

[Metar]

I'd love to see at least some of the older peugeots - maybe even the Group B versions (Peugeot 504?). They were great cars...
I'd also love those single-car makes, mostly founded by a guy as a hobby. Something like Cizeta, only somewhat cheaper cars. Or even those home-made racers. The amazing Costin-Nathan would be cool, but so would the Clan Crusader, the Lister-Jaguar (another awesome Frank Costin design), or the awsome Kaiser-Darrin. Others include the Intermeccanica Italia, a Duesenberg Meteor, a Duesenberg II Concept, or some of the unique Delahayes (none of the Delahayes was the same as another. Each word is a different car). Talking about uniques, I've got a couple of suggestions in the stupid/undriveable/unraceable car section: The Bond Bug (did Mr. Bond take a break from his Astons?), the Kleinschnittger (You actually had a lawn-mower engine, and you had to turn by literally lifting the back and moving it. Try this around the 'ring!), a Messerschmitt, or a BMW Isetta.
These are some of the many old cars I'd love to see in GT4... They're all '50-'70 cars, some sportier, some more luxurious, and some for the traffic.

EDIT: Ouch. So much typing and searching...

 

[Michael88]

Iam not a old fart, but I would like to see some racecars from the 70's and up.
I would love to race the Porsche 917 against its 70's competitors. (Argh!, Porsche won't be in GT5(6?) )

However, I would also like to race Can-Ams racing cars at their original unmodified 70's race tracks. (Brands hatch etc...)

Less japain cars! More old american and european race cars!
(Check out my post at the ''GT5 wishlist other than cars''. )

Some pics:
Porsche 908/03 70' ( Click to enlarge)
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[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]
Kremer Porsche K3 80'

[URL=http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=grd152shipmanaz4.jpg][/URL][URL=http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mirage66st7.jpg][/URL]

GTPR, Mirage M6

Oh I love that old race cars, especially the Porsches.

 

[morganhead]

do you know what would really get my blood pumping? the DODGE CHARGER DAYTONA!!