Honda Insight + Hybrid Chatter: What the CR-Z should have been all along - Post 288

[homeforsummer]

Well, you've gotta remember that I have an Aisin 2-barrel Carb, bricklike aero, and no overdrive gear, as well as 120,000 miles of wear. I figure the tank's not much less than the 10.5 gallons homeforsummer has.

But, yes, as cars get more efficient, more range will be expected from an alternative. consider this: my car is 21 years old. Yours are probably...much, much younger. In those 21 years, we've seen range nearly double on the same amount of fuel. Electric may need to figure out how to do the same in as little as five years.

11 years old and counting, though using a pushrod 8-valve unit not dissimilar to that of a 1960s Ford Anglia. Though with fuel injection, which undoubtably helps. And I've always liked the torque characteristics of 8v engines compared to 16v engines as they allow you to make progress without revving like a loon - good for economy.

 

[Tornado]

And I've always liked the torque characteristics of 8v engines compared to 16v engines as they allow you to make progress without revving like a loon - good for economy.

Compare Mustang Cobra with Mustang GT, for example.

 

[homeforsummer]

DO WANT

Insight 1G: first-gen Honda Insight with diesel upgrade gets 80 mpg

Ever heard of the Insight 1G? Sounds like the name of a first generation of the high-efficiency hybrid, right? It is, but the twist here is that the 1.0-liter, 70 hp gasoline engine has been swapped out in favor of a oil-burning 1.2L PD TDI from Volkswagen, specifically the Lupo 3L. How does the diesel swap make the car run? Excellent, says the Red Light Racing team's website. In fact, they claim they're getting 80 mpg without the hybrid portion of the powertrain in operation (It appears the team is using a manual Insight, which was rated at 53 mpg combined, by the EPA). They expect a further fuel economy boost of around 15 to 20 percent once the bugs in the engine signal translator are worked out.

Speaking of bugs, the conversion hasn't exactly been easy, and the team has set up a list of technical difficulties (and solutions) here. Jake Staub, the team's lead engineer, told AutoblogGreen that, "The main idea was to take existing hardware, hack it, and make a vehicle that could be produced by major manufacturers or individuals that would deliver tremendous fuel economy without a tremendous leap in technology. I believe we succeeded." Do you agree?

Source: AutoBlogGreen

Awesome. I'm sure I've mentioned something like this before on GTP but this is pretty much the perfect combination of a fuel-efficient engine with very pleasant driving characteristics, and a lightweight, aerodynamic body to make a fun and staggeringly economical car. Bit kudos to Red Light Racing for creating this project.

Now if they just dropped in the essentially identical 1.4 3-cyl TDI from the Audi A2/normal Lupo/Polo/Skoda Fabia etc which makes 75-90bhp and 144-170 lb/ft of torque, then we'd also have a rather sprightly little car which could still probably manage over 70mpg US with ease. I want one badly.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

Prius vs Honda thing vs Volt;

Should be an interesting battle, I hope...

THE VOLT???? that is the dumbest car ive ever seen. im suprised its going to be made!

 

[Omnis]

DO WANT

Insight 1G: first-gen Honda Insight with diesel upgrade gets 80 mpg

Source: AutoBlogGreen

Awesome. I'm sure I've mentioned something like this before on GTP but this is pretty much the perfect combination of a fuel-efficient engine with very pleasant driving characteristics, and a lightweight, aerodynamic body to make a fun and staggeringly economical car. Bit kudos to Red Light Racing for creating this project.

Now if they just dropped in the essentially identical 1.4 3-cyl TDI from the Audi A2/normal Lupo/Polo/Skoda Fabia etc which makes 75-90bhp and 144-170 lb/ft of torque, then we'd also have a rather sprightly little car which could still probably manage over 70mpg US with ease. I want one badly.

Ditto on the 1.4. I'd trade my Accent in an instant.

 

[YSSMAN]

THE VOLT???? that is the dumbest car ive ever seen. im suprised its going to be made!

Care to elaborate? I'd say the car is absolutely brilliant, a bold move by General Motors, and a car that will likely sell in droves. Assuming GM can build enough of them. It addresses some issues with standard EVs, but it creates some new ones as well. Although, I have to admit that I'm more interested in the Volt 2.0, or furthermore, what kind of engines will be bolted up to the Voltec system later on to create the maximum levels of efficiency. Let alone the changes in battery power.

 

[Philly]

As a car, I'm not sure if the Volt will be a huge success. The big thing is the technology inside. If GM can get the thing working well and use the Volt as a bit of a showcase car, they'll probably be able to use the technology much to their advantage. Probably in a similar way that Toyota did what they did with the Prius.

 

[YSSMAN]

I think that's the entire promise with the Volt... To demonstrate the technology, stick it in as many things as possible, and expand from there. GM will probably lose money on every one they build, probably for a long time. Its an "EV for Dummies" car, which is why I can see it selling to a lot of Prius-lovers who are looking for the next green thing.

 

[Omnis]

GM will probably lose money on every one they build, probably for a long time.

But they'll make it up in volume, right?

 

[YSSMAN]

I hope so. We've gotta factor in the Holden Volt and Opel/Vauxhall Ampera as well. I have no idea what they'll be looking to pump out in Detroit, but I doubt it would be anything close to the production numbers of the Cruze, to be built down in Lordstown.

Where they'll make money is shoving the technology in other platforms, or with other models. Buick's Voltec crossover, Cadillac's Voltec coupe, etc. Better yet, if they can sell it off to another company, like they did with their Two-Mode system.

 

[Omnis]

I hope so.

You didn't get it.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

The volt is not comparable. the prius and the honda are gas/ electric while the volt is fully electric!!!!!

 

[YSSMAN]

The Volt is not entirely electric. It still uses as gasoline (or diesel) engine to power generators that will recharge the Lithium-Ion batteries. Certainly, only electric power drives the vehicle at any given time (unlike the Prius and Insight, which uses both), but it still uses petrol power to keep things operational. That's why they normally call it a Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

RE: Omnis

No, I got it. Toyota had (still has?) the same problem with the Prius and HSD. Its going to be a long, long while until Voltec becomes profitable.

 

[Omnis]

When you sell something at a loss, making it up in volume (something that applies to narrow profits, as opposed to losses) only worsens your losses. You didn't get it.

 

[YSSMAN]

Lulz. I think you forget that I used to work for the poster child company for that problem.

$14 dollar tennis shoes and $10 jeans can only last so long

 

[Omnis]

Next time a "lol" will suffice.

 

[homeforsummer]

Like every other recent Honda, it looks like we'll be getting a Mugen CR-Z...

In addition to yesterday's leaked brochure shots containing official photos and details of the production version of the 2011 Honda CR-Z, a new scan featuring the JDM MUGEN variant escaped today onto Japanese automotive forums.

The new photo shows Honda's hybrid-coupe in full MUGEN body ware with a new grille treatment, chunkier side skirts, front apron, large rear wing, a new rear bumper incorporating a diffuser and newly designed alloy wheels.

We assume that, like most MUGEN proposals, the complete package for the 2011 CR-Z will also include numerous other upgrades such as suspension and brake kits, a sport exhaust system and interior options.

The new Honda CR-Z will be launched in its home market in February 2010

Source

Nice. The bodykit is perhaps a bit heavy-handed but the wheels look good. I think if I get a decent job in the next couple of years and happen to be in the new car market, I'm going to find it very difficult choosing between some of the stuff that's coming out in a year or two... CR-Z, Up! Lite, FT-86 etc...

 

[Jim Prower]

Dear Mugen,

Please, also install the Civic Type R engine in this car.

 

[homeforsummer]

Not gonna happen. Though I'm sure some enterprising individual might, just like the guy with the "K-sight" did.

 

[Leonidae]

Dear Mugen,

Please, also install the Civic Type R engine in this car.

^This +1

 

[Jim Prower]

Something else I found out today, regarding tuner Hybrids...

Even Top Secret's jumped on the bandwagon.

http://www.topsecret.ico.bz/base19.html

 

[Tornado]

I saw this the other day, but didn't want to start a new thread to post it in:

Hybrid sales in October outpaced the market, increasing 11.4% over October 2008. The heavy lifter as usual, was Toyota, up 15%; Toyota’s hybrids now represent 77% of the total US hybrid market, which is 2.9% of the total market. The Prius continues to dominate the whole hybrid sector, with a 55% market share, and sales of 13,496 units. Prius outsold the Honda Insight by an 8 to 1 margin.

Linky.

I am wondering, however, whether the Insight sales are low because of how middling it is or if it is just because only the Prius is a Prius.

 

[Omnis]

Like every other recent Honda, it looks like we'll be getting a Mugen CR-Z...

Source

Nice. The bodykit is perhaps a bit heavy-handed but the wheels look good. I think if I get a decent job in the next couple of years and happen to be in the new car market, I'm going to find it very difficult choosing between some of the stuff that's coming out in a year or two... CR-Z, Up! Lite, FT-86 etc...

Awesome! Now that's "different" design done right.

 

[homeforsummer]

I am wondering, however, whether the Insight sales are low because of how middling it is or if it is just because only the Prius is a Prius.

I reckon the latter. From most of the serious reviews I've seen (i.e... not Clarkson) the press seem to talk favourably of the Insight, and some have been getting very good economy figures from them in long-term tests. So I think the Prius name is enough to sway most people away from the Honda.

Incidentally: Further news on the new CR-Z. Brochure specs leaked.

 

[YSSMAN]

...I'm going to find it very difficult choosing between some of the stuff that's coming out in a year or two... CR-Z, Up! Lite, FT-86 etc...

It probably doesn't help that Mazda is rumored to be sticking the SKY-G engine in the newer (and lighter!) MX-5 next year, reportedly good for 50 MPG. Pretty awesome too.

The CR-Z is pretty cool, but until I actually see it in person, I'm not entirely sold on it. I'd be more worried about the price than anything, as there are quite a few fun-to-drive runabouts made available today. Keep it well under $20K and I'd be interested, but it would have to be leaps and bounds more efficient than a comparable Fiesta or Golf for me to buy-in.

 

[Philly]

What exactly is the CR-Z? The name is pretty clearly from the CR-X, which was a sporty Civic type thing. And I get the impression that this thing isn't sporty at all, and aimed much more toward efficiency. But with that name it just seems like it should be a sporty, lightweight hatchback than a Prius thing.

Prius vs. Insight - I think the Insight just kinda came and went. I saw them popping up everywhere when they first came out and haven't really seen their numbers growing since. Meanwhile the Prius is steadily working at conquering our streets. I think Honda's going to have to rework the Insight if they want it to do really well because they simply can't compete with the Toyota or Prius badge on the hood, which seems to make the Prius 'cool.' Sell the Prius as a Nissan and I bet they'd have trouble selling half as many.

 

[Tornado]

I reckon the latter. From most of the serious reviews I've seen (i.e... not Clarkson) the press seem to talk favourably of the Insight, and some have been getting very good economy figures from them in long-term tests.

I've seen most of the American press review it decently, until they get to the price. The only-two-car-payments-more Prius makes the Insight a complete joke, quite frankly. That's why I'm wondering about what caused the sales.

 

[homeforsummer]

It probably doesn't help that Mazda is rumored to be sticking the SKY-G engine in the newer (and lighter!) MX-5 next year, reportedly good for 50 MPG. Pretty awesome too.

That would be pretty good. Hopefully it's starting to return to the MX5's roots.

What exactly is the CR-Z? The name is pretty clearly from the CR-X, which was a sporty Civic type thing. And I get the impression that this thing isn't sporty at all, and aimed much more toward efficiency. But with that name it just seems like it should be a sporty, lightweight hatchback than a Prius thing.

It is possible to be both sporty/fun and efficient...

That they're selling it exclusively with a six-speed manual transmission is a statement of intent, in my eyes, given that all current hybrids are automatic/CVT only. Honda have come on the record to say that the CR-Z will be fun to drive, and I expect it'll also be fairly lightweight.

It also happens to be efficient. What I like about it is that Honda haven't seen fit to over-endow it with more engine than it needs. It'll have around 130bhp with the electric assistance according to the last article I linked to, and the same article reckoned the brochure mentions a 9.7s to 60 time. Fast? No. Quick enough to have fun with on a twisty road, or in town? Easily.

 

[homeforsummer]

More CR-Z news - Honda release a video.​

Honda is going right ahead and pushing the joy of driving meme for the new CR-Z, which is scheduled to arrive this summer. In a new promotional video by the automaker, some of the engineers who worked on the car talk about the CR-Z's development and how they expect the hybrid will be received. The video is entirely in Japanese, but there are helpful English text sections to let us know, for example, that CR-Z project leader Norio Tomobe, said:

"We carried out extensive research on our potential customers and we believe that these customers feel proud of possessing a car with values you can talk about with others. We believe that these values come from the design, from the [Integrated Motor Assist] hybrid technology and from the performance itself."

The video tells us that the CR-Z was tested extensively in Europe, and that it uses the base frame from the Insight, a decision that gave the engineers a good idea of how the new hybrid hatchback would handle. We're excited to feel it perform in real life, and think the video would be more impressive if the CR-Z were, um, driving more, you know?

Source: Autobloggreen (Watch the vid here too... no youtube unfortunately)

I know a bunch of people are jumping on the "it's slow/not economical enough/ugly/pointless/not as good as my 20 year old Civic" bandwagon but every time Honda release more info about it the car appeals to me even more.

In summary of the video:

They bought a MINI, Scirocco and Elise to benchmark the handling and driving fun, and they've taken it to Europe at numerous points in the development process to get a feel for it on different road surfaces. And they use the word "fun" a lot.

Incidentally, for anyone who hasn't seen from earlier news, here are some specs+pics of the production car.

Engine: 1.5 i-VTEC with IMA
Power: 122bhp
Torque: 128 lb/ft @ 1000-1500rpm
Economy: 36 city/38 highway (CVT); 31 city/37 highway (6-speed manual)
Estimated 0-60: Approx 9.7 seconds

 

[FoolKiller]

I am still not seeing what makes it so special, other than the fact that it doesn't look like a Prius or Insight from the front. How they price it will determine how it sells I think.