Horizon physics research thread

[breeminator]

I am curious...who here actually plays Horizon with a wheel? I think it would actually help a lot. The fundamental problem (ie too much front grip, for whatever reason) isn't going to go away, but having precise control over the steering angle would seemingly make it a mute point.

I don't really recognise the problem of excessive front grip. With a wheel, you can turn the front wheels beyond the point of peak grip, and it's difficult to turn them to the exact point of peak grip. Cars vary a bit in how forgiving they are when you go beyond peak grip, but I ended up going back to a controller after using a wheel in FH4 for a long time, due to how difficult it is to turn the wheel the exact right amount, vs the controller just automatically giving you peak front tyre grip.

It's easy to tune a car in FH4 to remove any hint of oversteer, but the meta is for cars to be oversteery, pretty much any tune you download by someone who is setting top times on rivals leaderboards will be oversteery, because if it isn't oversteery at higher speeds, it's leaving turning ability on the table at lower speeds. You pretty much have to just suck it up and git gud at controlling the oversteer if you want to be competitive in the game. You mentioned increasing front arb stiffness, but the meta is the opposite, max front grip min rear grip.

 

[breeminator]

Oh, just had a thought - are you driving with ABS on? ABS makes the back end slide if you try to brake and turn in. I have ABS off and use a controller with trigger lock to hit the right % of braking, it doesn't slide the back end like having ABS on does.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I don't really recognise the problem of excessive front grip. With a wheel, you can turn the front wheels beyond the point of peak grip, and it's difficult to turn them to the exact point of peak grip. Cars vary a bit in how forgiving they are when you go beyond peak grip, but I ended up going back to a controller after using a wheel in FH4 for a long time, due to how difficult it is to turn the wheel the exact right amount, vs the controller just automatically giving you peak front tyre grip.

It's easy to tune a car in FH4 to remove any hint of oversteer, but the meta is for cars to be oversteery, pretty much any tune you download by someone who is setting top times on rivals leaderboards will be oversteery, because if it isn't oversteery at higher speeds, it's leaving turning ability on the table at lower speeds. You pretty much have to just suck it up and git gud at controlling the oversteer if you want to be competitive in the game. You mentioned increasing front arb stiffness, but the meta is the opposite, max front grip min rear grip.

I don't care at all about being meta or whatever. Why anyone would play FH4 to participate in competitive gameplay is way beyond my understanding. I didn't say I wasn't good either...I'm good enough to beat the drivatars by miles. My problem is that, in my opinion, the driving physics are not as good/enjoyable as they could be for a game like this. I don't like how I can't "lean on" basically any car, they're all just jittery to drive - that's not to say they are uncontrollable because as @Wolfe mentioned, the game is unbelievably (I mean that literally) lenient in terms of oversteer recovery. The 996 GT3 and a lot of the buggies I find annoying to drive (with all assists off) but most everything else is pretty easy.

You seem to indicate that with a wheel, you can actually induce turn-in understeer. That's interesting...so it must be mostly the control modifiers making the cars feel the way they do. To me driving with a wheel seems more fun because you're actually more responsible for managing the grip of the car. That sounds more rewarding to me than hammering the joystick to full lock and letting the game engine figure out how much steering angle and grip to assign to be meta.

edit: to your second post - I drive with all assists turned off

 

[breeminator]

it must be mostly the control modifiers making the cars feel the way they do

Yes, the game is completely different between each of keyboard, controller, and wheel. With a wheel you can get into a slide that you simply cannot recover from. You slam the wheel to full opposite lock, and the car never comes back, it just slides sideways till it stops. It's infuriating when you know that controller users just don't have the same problem. And the instability is greatest with a wheel, then controller, then keyboard. Cross country is so easy with a keyboard compared to a controller, which in turn is much easier than with a wheel. It's like you're driving over smoothed terrain with a controller compared to a wheel, and super smoothed terrain with a keyboard. Some PR stunts are miles easier with a keyboard because the car just goes straight on over all but the biggest bumps.

 

[Sage Ages]

Not saying there's nothing weird or wrong with this game but OP is very obviously talking out of their ass and trying to find answers for things they don't understand.


Very unlikely that anything weird is going on with gravity or vehicle weights, but there could very easily be something going on with aero, tire grip, etc.

 

[Johnnn]

Momentum of the cars is different than in Motorsport. I think weight would answer it. What is your answer then?

 

[pez2k]

Very unlikely that anything weird is going on with gravity or vehicle weights, but there could very easily be something going on with aero, tire grip, etc.

The tyre compounds are indeed deliberately very unrealistic - the basic street tyres are generally around the grip levels of the racing tyres in the Motorsport games, which is how the physics are made more accessible and arcadey.

 

[HuskyGT]

Am I the only one who finds the physics in FH4 good? As long as you don't upgrade your tires, weight and suspension, the game is a lot of fun. Anything above Street, feels like Cruisi'n USA; bland, with ridiculous levels of grip and almost like on rails. Driving the cars stock will let you feel the weight transfer a lot better, oversteer and understeer. Heck the game even simulates torque steer.

It is probably why I usually stay away from anything in the S Class. It's with hypercars, or anything with sport/racing tires where this game fails hard. But play anything between higher C Class to mid A Class, and that's where the fun is. Drive a stock muscle car and throw it around a track hard and you can really feel it. During a drift, you can actually feel right about when the weight of the car bites the road and you can transition to another turn with an opposite drift. It's very satisfying.

Sure, there are a few things that bother me, like the self-centering steering wheel when stopped (I guess every car here is a Citroen?), and how the turning ratio decreases to ridiculous levels the faster you go. Old Porsche cars seem way too forgiving as well. And ABS is not very well simulated. having it off feels more like actual ABS. Like when you're driving on a snowy road and you hit the brakes hard.

And I am not saying the game has physics at the level of the most sophisticated titles, but for what it is, they've put a lot of care on simulating car behavior as "realistic" as a game like this is allowed to.

Anyway, this is just my opinion. I'm usually very forgiving with driving games, as long as they have fully-functioning physics; oversteer, understeer, good weight feel, clutch support, clutch slip, h-shifter support, etc.

As a reference, I play with a wheel. A G920 with 900 degrees. I also use no assists, drive manual (with cars that have sequential transmissions), manual with clutch (with fully manual transmissions), I even switch my shifter depending if the cars is RHD or LHD, play in Unbeatable and also have steering set to "Simulation," which to this day I really don't understand what it does, other than sharper steering response.

 

[Johnnn]

@HuskyGT Physics in Horizon was always great because it's the same as Motorsport. I loved Horizon very much for it. Just some stuff is bothering me. Front grip, car momentum, RWD launch and that means something strange is there and I want to know exactly what.

Simulation steering means less assists for steering, I use it too. It's always a good idea.

 

[ShawnPhillips]

As long as you don't upgrade your tires, weight and suspension, the game is a lot of fun. Anything above Street, feels like Cruisi'n USA; bland, with ridiculous levels of grip and almost like on rails. Driving the cars stock will let you feel the weight transfer a lot better, oversteer and understeer. Heck the game even simulates torque steer.

I can understand. For me it seems the higher in the PI range you go the more arcady the game feels. C and B Class feel great, S1 starts to feel off, and I really dislike how S2 feels. I have no problems with LMP cars in Motorsport even though they should be faster then FH4's S2 class. But S2 cars in FH4 almost feel too explosively powerful, especially given the tire physics difference between the games.

Based on my own personal experience, my main issue with FH4's physics is in the tires. I've seen people say they just increased grip, but I think it is more complicated then that. Feels like both an Increase in Grip and Decrease in Traction. More grip in Horizon giving more speed through the corners, but decreased traction making wheelspin under power a lot easier.
I once did some testing of the same car (Ferrari F12) in FM6 and FH3. Stock tune in both games, Same assist settings, Same method to launch the car. In FM6 I could easily launch the car from 1st gear with little to no wheelspin, A good solid launch. In FH3 trying to launch i the same way. Wheelspin for days, even launch from 2nd gear. FH4 is not as bad as FH3 was, There are some S2 cars I can handle with RWD. But still has decreased traction compared to Motorsport 7, and that decreased traction is what makes AWD swapping still so powerful in FH4.

 

[Johnnn]

RWD launch is what I am talking about. If you have lighter cars, you have less momentum and less grip but probably faster cornering. That's exactly how Horizon feels to me. RWD launch is about weight at the rear because of transfer. If you have lighter car transfer is not that big. Maybe it's something different because you can mix other stuff into it too.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I can understand. For me it seems the higher in the PI range you go the more arcady the game feels. C and B Class feel great, S1 starts to feel off, and I really dislike how S2 feels. I have no problems with LMP cars in Motorsport even though they should be faster then FH4's S2 class. But S2 cars in FH4 almost feel too explosively powerful, especially given the tire physics difference between the games.

Based on my own personal experience, my main issue with FH4's physics is in the tires. I've seen people say they just increased grip, but I think it is more complicated then that. Feels like both an Increase in Grip and Decrease in Traction. More grip in Horizon giving more speed through the corners, but decreased traction making wheelspin under power a lot easier.
I once did some testing of the same car (Ferrari F12) in FM6 and FH3. Stock tune in both games, Same assist settings, Same method to launch the car. In FM6 I could easily launch the car from 1st gear with little to no wheelspin, A good solid launch. In FH3 trying to launch i the same way. Wheelspin for days, even launch from 2nd gear. FH4 is not as bad as FH3 was, There are some S2 cars I can handle with RWD. But still has decreased traction compared to Motorsport 7, and that decreased traction is what makes AWD swapping still so powerful in FH4.

I've always felt like tires in Forza games feel too....buttery? I'm not sure the best way to describe it but they feel extremely forgiving and linear. They don't feel like air-filled rubber cylinders spinning around basically. I remember playing AC for the first time years ago (previous experience was limited to Forza and GT titles mostly) and it was the tires that felt the most remarkably different.

I'm not trying to suggest that Forza Horizon needs AC levels of simulation and really...it's probably fine the way it is. I just wish cars were a little more realistic feeling.

 

[Sage Ages]

RWD launch is what I am talking about. If you have lighter cars, you have less momentum and less grip but probably faster cornering. That's exactly how Horizon feels to me. RWD launch is about weight at the rear because of transfer. If you have lighter car transfer is not that big. Maybe it's something different because you can mix other stuff into it too.

Do you actually make any attempt to tune the cars at all or are you leaving the godawful default settings.

 

[ImaRobot]

Do you actually make any attempt to tune the cars at all or are you leaving the godawful default settings.

Yeah, the LSD settings alone are usually pretty damn terrible. Simply adjusting that has always helped me out.

 

[Johnnn]

Today I tested M7 again and there is really something strange with front grip with gamepad. It's not real at all, it's like you have mega front grip all the time. It's strange because when you slide a bit, front grip is still pulling the car out the out of corner which is not possible, you should go straight because front can't have that grip. It's very strange to drive because car doesn't feel right.

When you need countersteering, front grip is there for you like in Horizon. Doesn't make much sense.

Something's not right...