Hostage Drama in Sydney

[niky]

There can be lone wolf terrorists, as well. Witness the Oklahoma bombing and the Unabomber... okay, so McVeigh had an accomplice, but neither of these situations had a large radical organization behind them.

In this case, since the man was a nutjob, wanted for murder and an outcast from Muslim society, there's no reason to believe he had any connection at all to ISIS, not unless further investigation turns up something.

Thus, any reports suggesting the same are not only premature, they're recklessly alarmist, and the increased media exposure might just encourage some radical groups to try to take credit for the incident.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Our prime minister loves using the term "Death Cult"... It's nearly his favourite saying after" Labors debt and deficit disaster".

Honestly, I'm surprised he hasn't tried to blame Labor for IS yet.

PS, there are only a few people in this country that like him and that's his family and ministers... Everyone else is so embarrassed by him. I've still not met anyone that voted for him.

I would not be surprised if his government bear some degree of responsibility for Monis' state of mind yesterday. Monis accused ASIO and Tehran of conspiring to arrest him, and Abbott's anti-terror laws in September made the wider Muslim community feel as if they were being targeted for being Muslim. I wouldn't be surprised if that reaffirmed Monis' beliefs that ASIO was conspiring against him.

Abbott's problem is that he is only governing for the people who voted for him - rich, white, older, affluent people, not trained apes - and not the entire population. I'm surprised at how moderate he was yesterday, but I suspect someone told him that threatening to shirt-front the suspect would have been remarkably stupid.

 

[Mike Rotch]

Abbott's problem is that he is only governing for the people who voted for him - rich, white, older, affluent people, not trained apes - and not the entire population.

Abbott's problem? Is this thread about your one sided political views or a 'terrorist' siege?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Abbott's problem? Is this thread about your one sided political views or a 'terrorist' siege?

It's about a siege. A siege that I think could have been averted with a little more legislative tact. The entire episode - a lone wolf, disaffected and feeling marginalised, carrying out an act in the name of making a political statement and with a documented history of trying to prove a conspiracy against him - fits the bill of what the community was afraid of when that legislation was introduced. Legislation which did nothing but polarise the community. Without it, there is a chance that this could have been averted.

 

[TDZdave]

Meh, I gave up on politics when the country actually got someone voted in that they wanted, whos party screwed him out of it, speaking of politicians, I can't help but think Pauline Hanson is sitting there screaming at her television "I 🤬 TOLD YOU SO!"

I'm not racist by no means, but it seems far to easy for people to penetrate our borders, unstable people like this have history, this guy clearly had history here and should not have been there to begin with, At a former work place we had a Sudanese contract laborer, He was told by the person who arranged his travel that when he got to Australia to reply to any questions as "I don't know" or "I don't understand" or ask "what that is" in his native tongue, the sad part was he most of the things he was asked he genuinely didn't know, he didn't know basic things about himself, such as, last name, date of birth, age etc, rest assured though I did introduce him to Bacon though that puts me in a hard part, had I been the person processing him I'd have turned him around and sent him home, but after getting to know him he really was a genuine good person, who wanted to live away from a life of war,

 

[prisonermonkeys]

He had been here 18 years. You don't think a person can change in that time? Just because he was unstable now, it doesn't mean he was unstable then. If you refuse entry to anyone based on what they might do in twenty years' time, you'd have to refuse entry to everyone.

 

[TDZdave]

He had been here 18 years. You don't think a person can change in that time? Just because he was unstable now, it doesn't mean he was unstable then. If you refuse entry to anyone based on what they might do in twenty years' time, you'd have to refuse entry to everyone.

with Ebola and potential terrorist threats I'd totally be ok with that,

but who's to say he wasn't running from a questionable past? I can't be as patriotically Australian as I'd like to be as I'm the descendant of a refugee,

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I can't be as patriotically Australian as I'd like to be as I'm the descendant of a refugee,

It's funny you should say that, because denying entry to people based on what they may or may not do at some indeterminate point in the future sounds a lot like the White Australia Policy.

 

[TDZdave]

It's funny you should say that, because denying entry to people based on what they may or may not do at some indeterminate point in the future sounds a lot like the White Australia Policy.

seems correct but actually isn't the correct view, you're interpreting that as a racist remark which isn't the case, My partner and her family are all heavily involved in Indigenous affairs, and it sickens me to see how much sympathy and help refugee's and immigrants legal or otherwise get when there are Indigenous people who go without basic foods and proper basic education or even adequate housing in remote area's, I've seen things in remote Indigenous communities that have really rattled me and given me an entirely different perspective on life,

 

[mister dog]

From the sounds of things, he had more in common with people who get pushed over the edge than with terrorists. He was granted asylum in 1996 after his liberal interpretation of Islam got him in some kind of trouble with the Iranian authorities. Most terrorists subscribe to a radical, rather than progressive ideology.

While he was in court on murder charges, he apparently tried to represent himself and wanted the judge to allow him to see files that he was convinced ASIO had on him. The judge refused.

I'd say what has happened is that he fled Iran for a country that was seen as more progressive, but he still felt targeted once he got here. He probably didn't see any difference between the tactics used by the Iranians and those used by ASIO, and accused them of conspiring to send him to prison. That was a year ago, so something recent probably set him off. I'm guessing it was Abbott's anti-terror legislation; it probably would have further convinced him that he was being targeted.

To be honest every single one of them radicalized at some point, be it because of their surroundings or because they feel disgust for modern day society. In no way that's a reason to feel pity for the horrible stuff they are committing. If they would feel the need to defend Muslims against a dictator like Assad , by all means go over there and do it because that's understandable and noble in some way, but killing everyone that isn't kneeling down for your version of Islam is plain crazy, and deserves no excuse.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Did I say that he was excused for his crimes?

No.

I simply said that I saw a correlation between the events leading up to his crime and other, similar sieges, like the one in Adelaide. Being affiliated with a terror group doesn't make his crime any worse, just as being unaffiliated doesn't make it any better.

Treating terrorists as criminals is the best way to head them off. Organisations like IS depict themselves as holy warriors, fighting for a state where they have the freedom to practice the purest and most righteous form of their culture and their faith - even if they are branded as terrorists by the rest of the world. As a result, I think that the word "terrorist" has developed a certain romanticised connotation to it within those circles; that to be branded as a terrorist is to be an affirmation that they stayed true to their convictions.

But the word "criminal" has connotations that are much harder to escape. So by drawing parallels between Monis' actions and his criminal history rather than between his actions and his ideology, his position is weakened.

It's not enough to counter the threat of domestic individual terrorism on its own. But look at the epidemic of drunken violence that swept through the city. It was once known as a "king hit", but it was rebranded as a "coward's punch" to take the power out of the term. That was run in conjunction with media campaigns and legislative changes, but it seems to have worked. New Years' Eve will likely be the bit test of this, but it shows the power of how you position something.

Monis isn't a terrorist. His actions inspired terror, but at the end of the day, he should be remembered as a criminal if he is to be remembered at all.

 

[mister dog]

Did I say that he was excused for his crimes?

No.

Nope but you're coming up with excuses for what might have radicalized him. Every one of these fruitcakes has a reason one way or another, heck if we perceive the tides are against us who knows some of us GTP members might turn to the dark side one day and start flipping.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Again, did I say he was excused?

No.

Radicalisation doesn't happen overnight. And nor does it happen without reason. Those reasons don't excuse the act, but they do give us some idea of why a person turned down that path. If we understand those reasons, we can use that information to fight radicalisation.

IS work like a street gang. They identify people - usually young people, but not always - who have become disaffected and are feeling marginalised by society at large. And they tell those people that they are right, that they cannot practice their culture and their faith, and so that person is expected to give up a part of their identity to fit in. Then IS start offering an alternative; a sense of community and a cause, which they present as a noble fight. They offer the recruit everything that they thought was missing from their life, and everything IS told them was missing.

Once IS get their hooks in, it's difficult to get through to a person as they become rasicalised. But if we can identify people at risk of becoming radicalised before they actually do so, and work towards addressing their concerns, we can prevent them from becoming radicalised at all.

So please, tell me where I said radicalisation was excusable. Because I didn't. I said it was preventable.

 

[mister dog]

So please, tell me where I said radicalisation was excusable. Because I didn't. I said it was preventable.

Alright you summed up the reasons, not the excuses.

 

[terminator363]

http://uniladmag.com/articles/peopl...e-the-terror-siege-thats-happening-in-sydney/

Too soon?

 

[Grayfox]

American pro-gun are taking advantage of this by saying if australia didn't ban guns this wouldn't have happened so guns save lives.

Last time I checked guns weren't banned, we just have strict gun control

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-all-of-the-time/story-fnn8dlfs-1227158382584

 

[TDZdave]

American pro-gun are taking advantage of this by saying if australia didn't ban guns this wouldn't have happened so guns save lives.

Last time I checked guns weren't banned, we just have strict gun control

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-all-of-the-time/story-fnn8dlfs-1227158382584

Its not so difficult to attain, I know someone who should be allowed to sharps let alone operate a firearm, but he has the licence and several arms,

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm watching a press conference with Abbott right now, and he's clearly laying the groundwork to blame Labor - he keeps mentioning the dates when Monis got bail and acquired a gun licence, which all took place during Rudd-Gillard-Rudd, and highlighting the way new bail restrictions would have prevented Monis' release, legislation that was put forward by the Liberals.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Yes, this is a tragic event but there was far too much news coverage. Channel 2, 7, 9, 10 and 3 had massive bulletins during the siege!

 

[Imari]

I have to say that I also had the thought during the endless coverage across all channels that it was if anything making a good case to any potential terrorists of just how large a platform for their statements they will receive if they take hostages.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's the twenty-four hour news cycle in action - they won't cut away for fear that something major will happen and the other networks will get coverage of it.

 

[Tesla]

Did I say that he was excused for his crimes?

No.

I simply said that I saw a correlation between the events leading up to his crime and other, similar sieges, like the one in Adelaide. Being affiliated with a terror group doesn't make his crime any worse, just as being unaffiliated doesn't make it any better.

Treating terrorists as criminals is the best way to head them off. Organisations like IS depict themselves as holy warriors, fighting for a state where they have the freedom to practice the purest and most righteous form of their culture and their faith - even if they are branded as terrorists by the rest of the world. As a result, I think that the word "terrorist" has developed a certain romanticised connotation to it within those circles; that to be branded as a terrorist is to be an affirmation that they stayed true to their convictions.

But the word "criminal" has connotations that are much harder to escape. So by drawing parallels between Monis' actions and his criminal history rather than between his actions and his ideology, his position is weakened.

It's not enough to counter the threat of domestic individual terrorism on its own. But look at the epidemic of drunken violence that swept through the city. It was once known as a "king hit", but it was rebranded as a "coward's punch" to take the power out of the term. That was run in conjunction with media campaigns and legislative changes, but it seems to have worked. New Years' Eve will likely be the bit test of this, but it shows the power of how you position something.

Monis isn't a terrorist. His actions inspired terror, but at the end of the day, he should be remembered as a criminal if he is to be remembered at all.

By officially designating this as a criminal act, rather than an act of terrorism, meant that TAG East - who are specially trained in dealing with counter-terrorism and hostage situations - were not allowed to get involved. Could they have handled the situation better than the police forces that day? I would definitely say so.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Questions are being raised over the ability to conduct a full and impartial review of the incident following the "current affairs" television programmes getting out their chequebooks to secure prime-time interviews with hostages:

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-australia-30996796

 

[Mike Rotch]

The first bits of info from the siege are being released via the media.

The Lindt cafe owner was executed by Honi, rather than via a scuffle as was initially reported and the deceased barrister was hit by multiple bullet fragments from police fire, not his weapon.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

They have also questioned the decision to send TAG-East in, as they're a part of 4RAR and are a military unit. The coroner has suggested that the weapons used were too powerful for the situation.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

A full report is being passed down today. So far, our leaders have chosen to ignore the actual events of the siege in favour of making a political statement. Abbott has characterised Monis as a radical whose extremism was allowed to flourish because of the failure of the courts, but it's pretty clear that he wasn't a radical and was instead driven over the edge by the High Court refusing to overturn his previous convictions. The flag he displayed seems to have been designed to make sure that the eyes of the media were on the cafe. Abbott, however, has ignored this, instead choosing to use it as a platform to justify his upcoming national security crackdown and denying suspects "the benefit of the doubt" - or, to put it bluntly, denying them the presumption of innocence that everyone else would be entitled to.