How do you stop suicide bombers...?
- Thread starter Swift
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Viper Zero
From the first link you cited:
"These assessments are incorrect in my personal view and in my professional judgment as a scholar and intelligence analyst on Iraq, the Middle East and the Persian Gulf region for more than 20 years. Simply put, Saddam Husayn supported extremist groups that would respond to his orders and work against his enemy. This, unfortunately, does not make him the primary suspect or emince grise for al-Qaida's attacks on the United States...
In my judgment, Saddam assessed Usama bin Ladin and al-Qaida as a threat rather than a potential partner to be exploited to attack the United States. Bin Ladin wanted to attack Iraq after it occupied Kuwait in 1990 rather than have the Saudi government depend on foreign military forces. Several captured al-Qaida operatives have said Usama refused to consider working for or with Saddam, according to press accounts."
Why did you cite this as a justification for invading Iraq?
The other has GWB's byline on it, and the third is officially "in dispute". Surely you can do better than this.
- 2,208
Very enlightening article:
Newsweek story: "Women of Al Qaea"
This development has made it far tougher to "defend" against them. Now the "profile" includes a huge percentage of the population.
Newsweek story: "Women of Al Qaea"
This development has made it far tougher to "defend" against them. Now the "profile" includes a huge percentage of the population.
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
And how exactly should we do that in such a way that does not weaken our economy or allow invaders an opportunity to attack us?MrktMkr1986
What can we do to keep fanatical Muslims and others from thinking that we are infidels? How do you know that this move will stop them from trying to attack us and our interests? Can this be done without turning our back on any of our current allies?
Finally, can you honestly do this without making it appear that we have given in to the demands of a thug who always chooses violence over diplomacy from the start? I know how much you stress diplomacy, but I have yet to see any of these groups show an ounce of diplomacy. Perhaps if they tried to meet with us, discussed what it is they want, had reasonable demands, and then actually stuck to their side of the agreement all of this could be stopped. The most we ever got was when Arafat pretended to use diplomacy and then laughed about how he lied to us behind our backs.
- 7,889
- SolidFro
- RRoDzaaah!
///M-Spec
Swift
Correct me if I am wrong. What would happen if Osama bin Laden no longer had Islam, if Islam never existed? I posted this question earlier on and no one answered.
Carl.
(and after reading it, I'm betting that you didn't before posting that one... you also need to look up the word "allegedly")
No **** Sherlock.
Maybe you need to learn the finer points of Wikipedia. You can edit articles that you find incorrect. But, if you cannot find any facts to counter what is already in the article, then let it stand.
You can read any conflicts here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Saddam_Hussein_and_al-Qaeda
- 10,116
- Maryland, USA
- swift-bass
Viper, I don't care what Wikipedia says on this particular subject. Saying that Islam is the source for terrorism is like saying Christianity is the source of the crusades. It was the people in England that "thought" they were christians that did the crusades. Not the spirituality of Christianity.
If what you say is true, then how can there be millions of Islamic people in the USA right now, of all races that AREN'T terrorists?
If what you say is true, then how can there be millions of Islamic people in the USA right now, of all races that AREN'T terrorists?
- 10,116
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- swift-bass
Viper Zero
OK, good.
Viper Zero
Yes, it's a justification. Do you think if that there wasn't christianity that America never would've had slave trade? Because that was their justification for getting the slaves. To "Save the savages" from hell. But if Christianity wasn't here, there would've still been a need for workers in the cotton and tobbaco fields in early America.
BTW, you're statement is what I said earlier. Islam is his "justification" not his cause. If it wasn't for Islam, he'd come up with something else to justify his radical extremes.
- 2,767
Viper Zero
So, this is how Wikipedia works? Ooooh.
Maybe you need to start doing what you're preaching, and not posting links like this as a source of factual information, since anyone can post anything on it. Wikipedia is great source of information for everthing but info on a debated political issue, especially something like this.
Hence the
And you don't need any "facts" to debunk an allegation, you need "facts" to prove an allegation.
- 3,425
///M-Spec
wow.....sorry but I aggree whole heartedly...how could you blame Islam ?
common guy I would have hoped you would have actualy looked into the religion and its history before you would say such a thing.
If you do you will find that Islam is one of...it not the most ...tolerant of religions..not only that but history will prove that more people have been killed or haved died because of or in pursuit of Christianity than the plague or any other religion or disaster in the history of life on this planet...look it up and do the math .
- 1,620
Is that why us Aussies and every other westernised country have terrorists wanting to blow us up? (Bali bombings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_terrorist_bombing, and recently they've been planning to do a "London" on our ass (fortunately we've foiled it however): http://www.mezomorf.com/international/news-11044.html)MrktMkr1986
Also recently, they've had another go at killing Aussies (and basically anyone) at Bali: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Bali_bombings
I even think we've caught dudes with connections to extremist groups filming the Australian stock exchange, the American Embassy in Melb, various bridges and highway structures etc etc... a whole swag of stuff, we've grabbed a swag of stuff that had photos, possible locations for bombings... We've just got a new law in Aus where we can put someone in custody (without formally arresting them of anything) for 14 days if we suspect with good reason they are planning a terrorist activity. The DAY after this law was hurried through the upper house of parliament, we caught those dudes with all the "London style" bomb making materials! I think that law was rushed through for a reason!
ASIO has also spoken out that since 9/11 they've foiled several other planned attacks on Australian cities or Australians overseas...
Its not just America, these extremists hate the entire westernised world, and they've said so quite explicitly (if you can believe Osama and the gang, its a real deep hatred - about as deep as it gets - basically we're all apparently EVIL and thats it. No discourse needed from his point of view). This hatred will continue forever amongst people that follow this type of ideaology, regardless of policies implemented in the future by any western government. Like I've said - we've already offended them to such an extent that they won't sheath their swords now - they're a tenacious bunch of religious extremists - you expect something to be worked out over some scones and tea? Perhaps get some gelati?
Changing the US foriegn policy style to be less 'dominatrix' will make most countries think better of the US, thats for sure. But stop random terrorist acts from total crazy extremists? Not likely. Terrorists could even see the supposed "backing down" as an act of weakness and go even harder, thinking they're winning (yes according to many experts this type of thinking is exactly what they're like)!
In an ideal world, this would happen. Many of these extremists have gone on the record to pretty much say that every westerner (of any flavour) should die and is pure evil against their God (of whatever flavour that particular terrorist cell fancies). This isn't the best position to try and start a diplomatic disscussion. We would bring beers and pizzas to the "Lets Stop Killing Each Other International Summit" and they'd bring AK47s and wire the place to blow.MrktMkr1986
I'd love the world to be so reasonable, but you can't really argue with someone who is willing to die for their cause. Religious differences are the absolute all time best cause to go on a killing spree for thousands of years, with some individual wars lasting 500+ years... off and on of course! If only religion didn't exist the world would be a happier place.
I agree that in the vast majority of occurences (nearly everything we've known up to this point), differences of opinion (even religious) can be discussed in a civil manner and an agreement come to (even if compromised). Nearly every issue or conflict in the past has had potential to be worked out in a respectable way, mainly because conflicts have traditionally been between nation states, with known governments etc. With nut-job extremists, the whole point of why they're terrorists is that they're not bound by the normal ties to a nation state and can basically do whatever they like! By their very nature they're basically saying to the world "I'm never going to play by the rules! I don't want a discourse, you know I hate you and everything you stand for and that will never change!"
To think you can negotiate with terrorists, is simply naive in the extreme.
I of course still advocate a less head-kicking US foreign policy, all the normal civilised people will be much happier for it and maybe everyone (euro nations especially) will actually start to HELP America a little more than they do... Just don't expect extremists to change their life's goal of exterminating the west over night. Or even over the next 500 years...
- 3,052
James2097
Sounds like the Reichstag Fire to me...
Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
Ideally, yes.
Ask yourself, then... why?
That's not true either. People of various countries/religions/political affiliations can get along just fine. It's when a group of people become overly patriotic when things start to go wrong.
Emma Goldman
When, where, and how did this anti-West sentiment brew in the Middle East? How did we contribute to this?
These are questions that need to be asked if we're going to at least try to figure out how to stop suicide bombers.
FoolKiller
Support the Palestinians' right to statehood in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, including a shared Jerusalem that would serve as the capital of both Israel and Palestine and recognize the city's importance to all three monotheistic religions.
They'll have no "reason" to.
Absolutely. We can still give money, weapons and whatever else we want to give to Israel. As long as we support sustainable economic development in the region, so that the benefits of foreign investment and globalization are fairly distributed throughout the Middle East, we will not only maintain our allies, we will make new ones as well.
In my opinion: most definitely. We can still maintain economic and political hegemony over the Middle East if it suits or interests; there'll just be a lot less violence.
Agreed. There's always one dip___stick that prevents true diplomacy from ever occurring -- but that need not detract from our efforts to bring about peace in the region.
Mahmoud Abbas is prime minister -- let's hope for the best.
- 7,889
- SolidFro
- RRoDzaaah!
MrktMkr1986
That is what the UN wanted way back in 1947. Tell that to Hamas and they will cut your head off.
- 23,800
- Philippines
I knew that if I left for more than twelve hours, this thing would grow... it's like cancer. 
@ViperZero: *ahem* Both Democrats and Republicans are flip-flopping on the Iraq war issue, and now want to pull out. The Dems just did it earlier.
I have no respect for the Dems because they supported the war (I fully understand why the Republicans did, it's in their political agenda, and it was a given that they would), I have no respect for the Republicans OR the Democrats because they refuse to stay the course.
As regards the Palestine issue. It is in the political interests of both the militant extremists among the Palestinians and in neighboring Arab countries AND the ultra-right "hawks" in the Israeli government to keep the status quo, however frictional, fractioned and violent it is. My mom went to Israel a few years back to visit some fellow academics, and they talked to her quite a bit about the political manipulation of the issue by both sides. Some Israelis see the struggle as a ploy to keep the hawks in power.
There will never be peace in Israel. The Arabs dispossesed the Jews a long time ago... and now the Jews have dispossesed the Arabs... who's to say which claim had precedent? The Jews, due to some centuries old claim? The Arabs, due to some decades old claim?
With the centuries old animosity, politico-social and religious differences, and the various power groups with interests in Israel (the ultra-"hawk" element in the Israeli and US Governments vs. their counterparts in the Arab world) there is little chance of a stable peace between the two sides.
_______________________________________
An old trick of the Communists that the splintered off terrorist groups still use... when there is discord, encourage it. Let no head rest easy, let no silence lie unbroken.
In regards to Osama... yes, he could still operate without Islam. Animosity between the Arabs and the Western world runs that deep. Terrorism and war are not logical. While both may have economic and political agendas, they are sometimes rooted in reasons that are incomprehensibly removed from the present day reality. Converting Islamic radicals to some other religion now will not change a thousand years of warfare and hatred.
Go up to a Korean (not an American Korean, a Korean Korean) and ask him if he's proud to be Japanese. See if he doesn't throttle you to death. Not many Koreans can still remember the depredations of the Japanese Occupation, but the mistrust is still there. And that's from a mere decade of war... Imagine what the Arabs feel for the West? What the Israelis feel for the Arabs? What the Western nations feel for the Arabs? Hate begets hate, and it runs deep.
Like I said in a previous post, suicide bombers are uniquely (at least in current times... remember the Kamikaze?) Islamic, but terrorism isn't. The roots go much deeper than that.
_______________________________________
As an aside:
As far as I see it, the media serves its own interests, self-propagation and profit, just like any corporation. There is no leftist slant to the media, it's just that when they interview intellectuals, academics and political observers about the war, that's what comes out. If you don't like the message, tough.
There are other views besides "America First, Last and Only". I used to believe that. I lay huddled in my bed at night praying for good old Ronnie Reagan to protect me from the evil communist empire (which, unlike for you mainlanders, was right outside my ****ing door). As I grew up and saw how arrogantly BOTH sides treated the world as their political playground, I grew ever more afraid. If you've never lived outside the US for an appreciable amount of time, you can't understand what it's like to live on the political chessboard.
Please remember, politics is not logic, and you should never ever support any political agenda at face value or merely because it is supported by your "party". You should see all sides to the story and make up your mind for yourself.
@ViperZero: *ahem* Both Democrats and Republicans are flip-flopping on the Iraq war issue, and now want to pull out. The Dems just did it earlier.
I have no respect for the Dems because they supported the war (I fully understand why the Republicans did, it's in their political agenda, and it was a given that they would), I have no respect for the Republicans OR the Democrats because they refuse to stay the course.As regards the Palestine issue. It is in the political interests of both the militant extremists among the Palestinians and in neighboring Arab countries AND the ultra-right "hawks" in the Israeli government to keep the status quo, however frictional, fractioned and violent it is. My mom went to Israel a few years back to visit some fellow academics, and they talked to her quite a bit about the political manipulation of the issue by both sides. Some Israelis see the struggle as a ploy to keep the hawks in power.
There will never be peace in Israel. The Arabs dispossesed the Jews a long time ago... and now the Jews have dispossesed the Arabs... who's to say which claim had precedent? The Jews, due to some centuries old claim? The Arabs, due to some decades old claim?
With the centuries old animosity, politico-social and religious differences, and the various power groups with interests in Israel (the ultra-"hawk" element in the Israeli and US Governments vs. their counterparts in the Arab world) there is little chance of a stable peace between the two sides.
_______________________________________
An old trick of the Communists that the splintered off terrorist groups still use... when there is discord, encourage it. Let no head rest easy, let no silence lie unbroken.
In regards to Osama... yes, he could still operate without Islam. Animosity between the Arabs and the Western world runs that deep. Terrorism and war are not logical. While both may have economic and political agendas, they are sometimes rooted in reasons that are incomprehensibly removed from the present day reality. Converting Islamic radicals to some other religion now will not change a thousand years of warfare and hatred.
Go up to a Korean (not an American Korean, a Korean Korean) and ask him if he's proud to be Japanese. See if he doesn't throttle you to death. Not many Koreans can still remember the depredations of the Japanese Occupation, but the mistrust is still there. And that's from a mere decade of war... Imagine what the Arabs feel for the West? What the Israelis feel for the Arabs? What the Western nations feel for the Arabs? Hate begets hate, and it runs deep.
Like I said in a previous post, suicide bombers are uniquely (at least in current times... remember the Kamikaze?) Islamic, but terrorism isn't. The roots go much deeper than that.
_______________________________________
As an aside:
As far as I see it, the media serves its own interests, self-propagation and profit, just like any corporation. There is no leftist slant to the media, it's just that when they interview intellectuals, academics and political observers about the war, that's what comes out. If you don't like the message, tough.
There are other views besides "America First, Last and Only". I used to believe that. I lay huddled in my bed at night praying for good old Ronnie Reagan to protect me from the evil communist empire (which, unlike for you mainlanders, was right outside my ****ing door). As I grew up and saw how arrogantly BOTH sides treated the world as their political playground, I grew ever more afraid. If you've never lived outside the US for an appreciable amount of time, you can't understand what it's like to live on the political chessboard.
Please remember, politics is not logic, and you should never ever support any political agenda at face value or merely because it is supported by your "party". You should see all sides to the story and make up your mind for yourself.
- 3,052
Viper Zero
It said that plan failed. I'm talking about a plan that is beneficial to both parties.
As far as Hamas is concerned, if they weren't funded by our "allies" they probably wouldn't have the kind of power that they do.
- 1,620
Does it matter? The tension EXISTS NOW, and the damage (both ways) is done and will never go away due to the absolute tenaciousness and unforgiving nature of these terrorist's beliefs. The west WERE bastards to many middle-eastern countries. However, I've made it clear that what terrorists want isn't just about a rational demand like wanting America to not screw-up the middle east anymore (like what a civilised nation would want that is aiming for peace). They WOULD NOT STOP WANTING TO KILL US NO MATTER WHAT at this point. Its simply WAY too crazy for diplomacy to work. Who do you even talk to? Can you just get Osama on the phone? There isn't even one dude that organises these terrorists, and many of them operate totally independently anyway! Do you understand the complete impossibility of a reasonable debate with someone who feels COMPLETELY "just" (and doing the best deed they can for Allah or whatever) about blowing themselves up and hundreds of poor innocents? We aren't even fighting a nation state, its just some dudes who feel really marginalised (yeah that part IS rational) but to go out and kill innocent people, to want every westerner dead instead of even SLIGHTLY being open to more constructive way of dealing with their issues is totally insane! They're the ones not being open to a peaceful disscussion, NOT US. Can you see any terrorists coming to the table for talks? NO. They are simply convinced they are right and will never get into a discourse with the enemy (that would be everyone that isn't like them).
Yes, I sympathise in the sense that America has really hurt their countries (ignoring that terrorists don't even represent their countries - they're not politicians and most people in the countries they say they represent would absolutely NOT condone their actions...), but why should I (in Australia) deserve to get bombed if I don't join their religion and want it to take over the world? These guys basically want to totally overthrow western society, that they are better than everyone no matter what and feel no guilt about killing innocents, that they deserve to triumph no matter the human cost. You can't argue with them, its like Hitler saying only the master race should survive, burn everyone else! No talks, I will NEVER GIVE UP THE MASTER PLAN!!!
Rationality simply does NOT work when trying to understand this mindset. Yes, its complicated in that the western world HAS done stuff thats pretty inexcusable, but the sheer dogged insanity and lack of regard for human life is from another century entirely. Their cause is IMPOSSIBLE to satisfy, we would have to all become EXACTLY LIKE THE TERRORISTS in our culture, religion and values for us to sleep easy at night without thinking we might get bombed.
Considering that most people in the entire world (most muslims etc included) think terrorism is insane (by far the majority of people (even those in areas screwed by the yanks) DO NOT condone bombing people etc), its pretty safe to say we shouldn't afford them any sympathy. I can't just put on a black balaclava and say: "I'll bomb the subway and kill hundreds of evil non-noodlers if everyone doesn't become a flying spaghetti monsterist, and worship and abide by him. The great noodled one wants me to bomb everyone that disrespects him, any less and I'll keep going until the flying spaghetti monster takes over the entire population of the world!! MWAHAHAHA!!"
Since when did people like this earn respect and sympathy? I sure haven't done anything to **** with any terrorists or their cause, hangin' out in country Australia most of my life!
To think we can have a nice tea party and sort it out (and have every terror cell in the world NEVER bomb us again and just go "cool, we don't hate you anymore"...) is as naive as it gets.
There is only one policy that works. Do not negotiate with terrorists.
- 2,208
niky
A very concise and accurate summary of this unresolvable situation.
(BTW, I don't think this jerk is going to live to be an old man. He's making mortal enemies, both in and out of Iran, almost daily now:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/08/iran.israel.reut/index.html )
- 3,052
James2097
Yes it does.
1. It can go away if we come to some sort of an agreement.
2. You seem to be forgetting the absolute tenaciousness and unforgiving nature of other people's beliefs.
If that's the case then:
A. I'm moving to Sweden
B. There is no hope for the human race
That's not entirely accurate.
I could say the same about Republicans vs. Democrats -- but that's another story.
NOTE: I'm not implying that Republicans or Democrats are terrorists -- just saying that the ideological divide is so great.
I don't think you understand the root cause of all of this. By making statements like that it sounds as though you're buying into the propaganda.
1. No one deserves to get bombed
2. It has nothing to do with converting people to Islam
3. No one, except the United States, is trying to take over the world
Funny you should say that.
I agree! Regardless of what religion they practice.
That's not true. There can be peace -- and we wouldn't have to become terrorists either. I've outlined a plan that could stop all of this nonsense in an earlier post.
Meh, you're probably right. Let's bomb them back into the caves from which they came. If you're going to tax me for national defense at least put the weapons to good use!
[/joke]
- 10,116
- Maryland, USA
- swift-bass
ledhed
Viper conceded this point a few posts about yours my friend.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2026443&postcount=71
ShobThaBob
Premium
- 2,651
- rosooftw
I can honestly say I dont care if a bunch of people are blowing themselves up. If that's what they want, so be it, but I don't want it happening in my country.
- 1,620
You know damn well you're quoting me out of context. The context was that it doesn't matter in the here and now due to no one looking like they will ever WANT proper talks, and no one is backing down. You only need to understand the cause if you're trying to be diplomatic, which no one will be towards terrorists. Don't think I don't understand the fanaticism and tenacious level of patriotism of certain nations that instigated this whole mess. It takes two to tango.
Idealistically. We're talking about America vs. terrorists here, post 9/11. It'll NEVER happen.
Of course its possible to cooperate with nation states, as I've said before. I mean a dialogue directly with the terrorists responsible for bombing westerners, which will NEVER happen. Besides, whatever came of that letter? So far, it seems like its just a nice gesture.
I concur.
No crap. I only ever said "think like they do" when talking about their ideaology. I know they're USING religion for their own purposes, I've said the vast majority of Islamic people are peaceful and DO NOT condone terrorist bombings! How is that buying into propaganda? Who's propaganda? Its just a fact.
Yeah, lets bomb their people! They deserve it. Any big superpower is gonna have a strong influence in the world. I'm not as sure as you they MEAN badly by it.
New Zealand would be better. Less tax, and you can speak english. WAAY better climate and scenery. Plus the government is super progressive, non-religious and damn lefty, perfect for people that want to avoid being a terrorist target. Plus it's a smallish island country (no way in but air or sea) so its easy to secure what goes in and out...
Quite right. We will be in some form of conflict forever (as we have always been), especially as the population rises and we start running out of resources. And people say I'm too pessimistic!
Why? What do you ASSUME I think?
I see both parties as reasonably similar. Its not like one of them is communist and the other capitalist. Clinton bombed Iraq many times, he also did a lot of bad foriegn policy work too... he would've reacted similarly after 9/11 I think - maybe more patient (Iraq) but just as patriotic (WE WILL PREVAIL! etc)... We don't get the liberal media wackos vs the right wing nut job propaganda in Aus, so I think I have a little more of a realistic view, even if it is filtered through our own media...
I've never said any one religion is worse than any other. One can USE certain religious ideas as a means to an end however.
According to you. Do you want me to clap?
Since when did I condone bombing them? It would only make them madder (and their cause is bigger than individuals anyway - bombing them would just create MORE people that are annoyed with the US...). If you're trying to infer I'm a right wing nut job, well I didn't vote for John Howard last election. I'm just not soft on terrorism (doesn't mean I don't sympathise with people that think the US is behaving like a tyrant internationally). Doesn't mean I think the US is going about it the right way. I just don't sympathise with people that bomb innocent civilians and think people should still listen to what they want... not say I think they don't have a valid cause in ANY way, I just think once you become a terrorist I don't think you deserve a spot at the table IMO.
I do think Bush is trying to do the right thing, he's just too stupid to know exactly what... he's not an innately evil person IMO, just a bit thick and lacking tact. Still, has anyone worked out exactly what we SHOULD be doing that will fix terrorism for sure?
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