How do you stop suicide bombers...?

[ledhed]

Viper conceded this point a few posts about yours my friend.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2026443&postcount=71

must have missed it .

At any rate you either identify and track down the organizations and bombers and kill them or otherwise make them irrelevant .While at the same time you must be removing the conditions that make them want to take the extreme step of exploding themselves and others for a cause.

Niether step is easy or some might even say possible at least to a one hundred percent effectivness .
Iraq is a step in the right direction ..although the shortsighted amongst us do not see it...success in Iraq not only removes some of the conditions for creating suicide bombers ..but it is also helping to track and kill or detain potential subjects and in a morbid way using up the available stock in a losing cause ( for them ) .
Democracy in Iraq and throughout the Mid East along with stable thriving governments with a lessening divide amongst the rich and poor and theose with power and the powerless will do more to remove terrorist than the hydrogen bomb .

look at the recent poll done in Afghanistan..is it so hard to see after another year or so a similar poll with similar results in Iraq ? we have already seen a resurgence of deocratic desires and aspirations amongst the other countries in the region ..it needs to be nurtured . having a strong and extremely military able proponent of freedom in the area will keep the despots from cracking down too hard on dissent...and the example of Iraq effectively elimated any state sponsored terrorism and has removed any safe havens and left only holes to hide in ...or hiding in plain sight amongst civilians . its those civilians who must decide to end support . That leaves only the holes in the ground .


You may never be able to remove the religion from the motivation ..you can only hope to kill the motivated and destroy the organ that teaches them . for that you need local intelligence to help root out the cancer . You need some people on your side or at least AGAINST the idiots.

Success in Iraq removes the excuse of soldiers on Saudi soil ...not like they need it , they seem to be able to come with reasons any time they want to .
Wars take years and seeing the fruit of your efforts may take longer , its a shame we are so damm stupid and shortsighted to see this . Instant gratification is our curse .
Ask the Asian what a war is . Wars are not measured by time ..they are measured by results ..as in "We win you lose " if it takes a hundred years you will not defeat us ..you may kill millions of us and we may lose many battles but at the end we will still be on this land you will be buried in it to act as fertilizer to feed our future generations ...

The only way we can lose is if we lose our will to win .






I paraphrased Ho Chi Mhin . he seems to have done a pretty good job along with his people of defeating the Chinese...the Japenese..the French..the Americans..the Chinese ..again !...


You need to look at the long term big picture and get this short attention span crap out of the way..its like all western countries have an advanced case of ADD .

 

[FoolKiller]

Support the Palestinians' right to statehood in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, including a shared Jerusalem that would serve as the capital of both Israel and Palestine and recognize the city's importance to all three monotheistic religions.

I thought that we had clarified that this wasn't about religion.

That aside, how will this stop anything when they have convinced their followers/future bombers into believing that we have waged a crusade against them and that we are infidels who must be killed just because we are not Muslim? They were saying this even when we didn't have troops over there. How will this appease the groups that have openly said they will not cease until there is NO Israel? Do you think these people will be happy sharing Jerusalem with Jews and having it be a Christian tourist spot?

Arafat used to say that his goal was to push Israel into the sea. Even though he is dead there are people who still hold his ideas. Do you expect them to suddenly be happy with your proposal?

While what you propose may be their goal the twisted version of Islam that is full of hatred and death goes beyond that goal and will not let them be happy until either all Jews or all Westerners are completely out of the Middle East. Just saying, "OK guys, let's share now," may work with kids but that is not their final goal. Someone who hasn't even attempted diplomacy won't be made happy with diplomacy on the scale you are talking about. We would have to make a complete 180 on Israel to make them even consider that we might be on their side. I fear that idea would only give us a new enemy that will be even more ferocious and better organized.

 

[Zardoz]

...The only way we can lose is if we lose our will to win...

...or they never lose their will to continue the "struggle".

It isn't about us. Its about them, and a given percentage of their population will always feel that sacrificing their lives to the "cause" is the noblest, most-worthwhile thing they could ever do.

Therefore, they will do it.

 

[ledhed]

You couldnt be more wrong.

 

[luftrofl]

...or they never lose their will to continue the "struggle".

It isn't about us. Its about them, and a given percentage of their population will always feel that sacrificing their lives to the "cause" is the noblest, most-worthwhile thing they could ever do.

Therefore, they will do it.

It isn't about us?
Not at all?
So the fact that "we" are the ones being targeted has nothing to do with the whole thing?

 

[Zardoz]

It isn't about us?
Not at all?
So the fact that "we" are the ones being targeted has nothing to do with the whole thing?

Let me refer you back to Swift's original thread-starting post:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast...main/index.html

This is Iraqi's killing Iraqi's here. How can you possibly defend yourself against something like this? You can't, you must take the offensive.

This particular event is just sick.

What do you think?

This thread isn't about Americans being victimized by suicide bombers, but it's been hopelessly hijacked and turned that way.

Believe it or not, there are things that occur on this planet that are not all about Americans, hard as that may be for some of us to come to grips with. On this particular subject, for instance, there are the dozens of suicide bombings in Israel, the Bali catastrophe that victimized mostly Australians, the Palestinian wedding party in Amman that was suicide-bombed, and the great numbers of suicide bombings in Iraq that have victimized only Iraqis and haven't so much as nicked any Americans at all.

Do you really think that "we" are the only ones being targeted?

The suicide bombers are donating their lives to their cause, and we often don't even know what it is. They are dieing for an idea, and we may have no clue whatsoever what that idea is.

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

You've got to put yourself in a situation where you have lost family member after family member , friend after friend , coworker after coworker , your hometown overrun by people harshly unsympathetic to your culture , wayof life , history and possesions .
You think it's all sorted to pay some teenager from your failed industrial satellite to 'maybe' take a bullet .
People subjected to the conditions above have no room for patriotism they are seeing red and cannot be bought . Pulling a pin in anger is still very much an act of ANGER if the only thing of meaning remaining to you in a raped existence are acts of anger , release ,..it's all emotion .
What ime trying to say if any of you 'patriots' have the Huevos you so easily brag about then you would be a TERRORIST no doubt , you just wud'nt be able to restrain yourself at the up close realities of rape&carnage , not paper lies 3500miles away . You would no longer be termed a patriot because of being born on the wrong side at the wrong time , nah , you'd be a dyed-in-the-wool Terrorist , hunted and villified for your 'cowardly' acts , thats if you had any hanging that is . . .

EDIT; run a poll on this forum here and there are data returns & a gauge of how to proceed from the memberships concensus and shareholding . To my mind that's Democracy , the internet is Democracy .
Saying and then believing that democracy is somehow a scammed-in bunch of old , highly paid, cronies ; mostly unfit, ugly, psychotic-as-a biatc males , but a few cold&slippery dragons for image W/ a hidden agenda , mediocre acting ability and the firm knowledge that the public swallows most plausabiles is a crime . There is no democracy with secrecy and weapons of simple murder (WSM) , Electronic decisions are the true Demokratia (rule of the people , or simply ; the people) , the democracy of a future yet established and fully blocked by frightened vested interests . Anger & Truth are infinitely superior to Fear & Lies . Make sure you know how to sell your 'democracy' puke to the remaining huddled women & children. We , of the future reserve our definitions for the lofty side of the ideal and the superconductive side of safety-proofing .
P.S Is there a snore smiley ?

 

[MrktMkr1986]

The suicide bombers are donating their lives to their cause, and we often don't even know what it is. They are dieing for an idea, and we may have no clue whatsoever what that idea is.

We (as in the administration) know exactly what that idea is. But because it doesn't conform to Washington's standards, they won't allow it to come to fruition.

That aside, how will this stop anything when they have convinced their followers/future bombers into believing that we have waged a crusade against them and that we are infidels who must be killed just because we are not Muslim?

By not acting as though we "own" the place. If it's shared, they have no "cause".

They were saying this even when we didn't have troops over there. How will this appease the groups that have openly said they will not cease until there is NO Israel?

How do we appease the groups that have openly stated that? Cut military funding from Israel.

Do you think these people will be happy sharing Jerusalem with Jews and having it be a Christian tourist spot?

In my opinion, yes. It's a win-win-win.

Arafat used to say that his goal was to push Israel into the sea. Even though he is dead there are people who still hold his ideas. Do you expect them to suddenly be happy with your proposal?

Probably not... but, refer back to the military spending proposal.

While what you propose may be their goal the twisted version of Islam that is full of hatred and death goes beyond that goal and will not let them be happy until either all Jews or all Westerners are completely out of the Middle East.

...because of our past aggression/transgressions. By making amends and accepting responsbility for our actions, they will have no reason to want us completely out of the Middle East.

Just saying, "OK guys, let's share now," may work with kids but that is not their final goal. Someone who hasn't even attempted diplomacy won't be made happy with diplomacy on the scale you are talking about. We would have to make a complete 180 on Israel to make them even consider that we might be on their side.

Only when it comes to military spending. Others relations with Israel can remain the same.

I fear that idea would only give us a new enemy that will be even more ferocious and better organized.

Nope... not at all.

 

[FoolKiller]

You've got to put yourself in a situation where you have lost family member after family member , friend after friend , coworker after coworker , your hometown overrun by people harshly unsympathetic to your culture , wayof life , history and possesions .
You think it's all sorted to pay some teenager from your failed industrial satellite to 'maybe' take a bullet .
People subjected to the conditions above have no room for patriotism they are seeing red and cannot be bought . Pulling a pin in anger is still very much an act of ander if the only thing of meaning remaining to you in a raped existence are acts of anger , release ,..
What ime trying to say if any of you 'patriots' have the Huevos you so easily brag about then you would be a TERRORIST no doubt , you just wud'nt be able to restrain yourself at the up close realities of rape&carnage , not paper lies 3500miles away . You would no longer be termed a patriot because of being born on the wrong side at the wrong time , nah , you'd be a died-in-the-wool Terrorist , hunted and villified for your 'cowardly' acts , thats if you had any hanging that is . . .

Let me get this straight. If I "had any hanging" and lived under the conditions they perceive themselves to be under I would be a suicide bomber and kill innocent people that don't event represent the people I am angry at? I would blow up a bus, train, subway, restaurant, plane, building, whatever full of people who might even be ignorant of my plight or anger or misguided emotions? What would that achieve? All that does is make those that I am angry with angry at me because they still don't understand my reasoning, they just know that I killed their family and friends and cowarkers.

In the end all I have managed to do is kill innocents and myself without getting a single message out about my plight.

A would be terrorist group would achieve much more progress by marching all their members peacefully to protest and demanding an open and honest diplomatic negotiation. By informing those they have problems with that they have issues they are willing to fight and die over then many times they will agree to meet. Some won't but most will. And in instances where violence is the only solution a suicide bombing that kills innocent people achieves and proves nothing.

See, many terrorist organizations may have a reasonable plight, but as long as they refuse to negotiate peacefully and compromise then no one will listen. We will just hate them without knowing why they do what they do.

 

[Zardoz]

We (as in the administration) know exactly what that idea is...

I don't see how you can assume that they understand what's going on. They had not a trace of a clue going in, and there's no evidence that they've learned anything at all in the last 1000 days.

In their defense, though, is there anyone who understands the motivation behind each individual suicide mission? Different people are detonating themselves for different reasons, and we usually don't know what those reasons are. That's why nothing can be done to stop them.

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

@FoolKiller , how do you know if you're hometown were overrun w/ let's say commies , farfteched i know , that you would'nt be in a blind rage searching for anything to lash out at your dominator and make your presence felt . It's their situation that's farfetched to us and yet i feel that in despair eye-for-eye rage killing is not that unusual a reaction . You probably say that you'll never be an underdog but if , even for one day , i could force you to kneel and renounce your self-understanding , don't tell me you'd have the cool to buy a high-powered rifle ( with money you are'nt allowed ) to take out the honcho , when all use see is the infuriating presence of commies everywhere raping what you once held sacred and precious. Some fertilizer , weed killer , watch parts etc could soothe you quicker than methods that are forcfully denied for evening the score . Ime not sure you'd take the high moral ground , FoolKiller , next month , like,when you have your unraided cell organized , like. . .

 

[FoolKiller]

By not acting as though we "own" the place. If it's shared, they have no "cause".

How do we appease the groups that have openly stated that? Cut military funding from Israel.

In my opinion, yes. It's a win-win-win.

Probably not... but, refer back to the military spending proposal.

...because of our past aggression/transgressions. By making amends and accepting responsbility for our actions, they will have no reason to want us completely out of the Middle East.

Only when it comes to military spending. Others relations with Israel can remain the same.

So, when someone like Bin Laden or Arafat convinces thousands of people that it isn't about a shared Jerusalem and the US influence but about pushing Israel into the sea and killing all westerners and sympathizers because they are infidels who should be all be killed how does your proposal work?

Think about it. Thousands of followers are now in a frenzy and have the belief that the Jihad is about removing all Jews and westerners from their lands. They don't want to share and get along any more they want to be rid of all others because they were brainwashed into a different mindset. They have a different point of view than the average Muslim.

A fanatic cannot be negotiated with. They want all or nothing. I don't believe giving them a shared Jerusalem with less support for the Israeling military will satisfy them. A man who believes that he gets virgins and glory for blowing himself up in battle isn't likely to change his story when you give him half of what he wants.

Nope... not at all.

I was referring to Israel if we turned our back on them completely, not anything under your proposal.

@FoolKiller , how do you know if you're hometown were overrun w/ let's say commies , farfteched i know , that you would'nt be in a blind rage searching for anything to lash out at your dominator and make your presence felt . It's their situation that's farfetched to us and yet i feel that in despair eye-for-eye rage killing is not that unusual a reaction . You probably say that you'll never be an underdog but if , even for one day , i could force you to kneel and renounce your self-understanding , don't tell me you'd have the cool to buy a high-powered rifle ( with money you are'nt allowed ) to take out the honcho , when all use see is the infuriating presence of commies everywhere raping what you once held sacred and precious. Some fertilizer , weed killer , watch parts etc could soothe you quicker than methods that are forcfully denied for evening the score . Ime not sure you'd take the high moral ground , FoolKiller , next month , like,when you have your unraided cell organized , like. . .

I would like to think that if I took the time to learn how to make the bomb I would learn how to make a detonator or timer.

I also would envision myself being a calmer and cooler person about trying to stop an invader. A dead Foolkiller can't kill more fools.

But you are right, until I am in that situation I can't guarantee how I would act, but neither could you tell me how I would act. Since I refuse to listen to hate speech of the type that fanatical Muslim extremists believe I might not be willing to blow myself up at all. I personally believe it is the extremism that is the key behind their willingness to do what they do, not blinding hatred and anger. That is more likely to send you running in to attack without a plan or strategy and getting yourself killed. A suicide bombing is thought out and planned ahead of time. It is purposeful, many times with a specific target or location in mind. They have hate and murder in the heart but they are not blinded by it. They have to be able to see in order to be convinced that this extreme measure is the answer.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I commend leaders like Joe Lieberman for standing up and telling the truth.

Then...

In our democracy, a president does not rule, he governs. He remains always answerable to us, the people. And right now, the president's conduct of our foreign policy is giving the country too many reasons to question his leadership.

And now...

It's time for Democrats who distrust President Bush to acknowledge that he will be the commander in chief for three more critical years and that in matters of war we undermine presidential credibility at our nation's peril.

 

[Zardoz]

Oh, don't worry, Joe. We're not going anywhere. We're in this for the very, very long run.

We're stuck in this quagmire, but good. And when we finally do drag our exhausted butts out of there, some time in the distant future, we will leave behind something we never envisioned when we got ourselves into this. God knows what it will be, but it won't be what we had in mind.

 

[Raghavan]

You stop suicide bombers by stopping the organizations who brainwash them into bombing.

 

[Swift]

You stop suicide bombers by stopping the organizations who brainwash them into bombing.

And there in lies the trick.

 

[FoolKiller]

What if we just gave them all PS2s with GT4 for Christmas, I mean the holidays? Maybe they just don't have proper distractions from their daily woes.

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

Yeah , they don't have much in the way of light-hearted furniture . . . From what i understand , though , the first suicide bomber ( not a hijacker ) was a Hamas member in early 80's Lebannon . So it's likely that desperation , for that would surely be the overriding feeling in such a devastated city as Beirut , was the first motivation and then Jihadi took it up in a fundamentalist way so that it became a sanctioned act of war , a religeous rite and not an act of suicidal anger . The anger that puts you there has to be present before 'leaders' can call upon it , usually by long-distance telephone . Yeah , FK , a timer is where it's at with explosives , but even handling explosives can be dangerous .

 

[Zardoz]

We really need to stop kidding ourselves about there being some sort of "solution". This is never going to end:

"There are more important things than living."

"Iran gives Islamic Jihad moral support and aid in all forms because that is the duty for people who hate America and the Jews," says Mifleh Uthman, a dentist and Islamic Jihad activist. Uthman believes there is no political solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. "All the verses in the Quran confirm that Israel will never give in," he says.

And remember, the people of Iran elected this little cretin to be their President:

Iran president: Holocaust is a 'myth'

This is the guy the Shiites in southern Iraq will be closely allied with. It's all going to work out great, isn't it?

 

[Fairlady240zg]

Genocide.