How realistic is Gran Turismo really?
- Thread starter Program Music
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- GTP_BuzzOrHowl
@ otago:
Perhaps you're talking about power oversteer... which was a bit lacking in GT4.
I'm talking about throttle lift oversteer... a very different animal.
If you still think it dosen't exist in gt4, turn off all driving aids, go into a turn hot in the Lotus Elise, and lift the throttle mid turn... trust me, you'll get oversteer!
Just like my car at the track
Just because oversteer is possible, that doesn't mean it's right. If we're going to talk about GT4, that game had a terribly strong predisposition toward understeer, which is what otago is talking about. Yes, powerful and/or rear-heavy cars would gladly oversteer...but they should be gladly sending you to the wall taillights first, and they don't. The only scary thing about a powerful RWD car in GT4 is that the countersteer bites harder than the twitchiest supercar, no matter what you're driving. Massive wheelspin does nothing more than gently push the car forward. Braking and rough weight transfer almost always lead to one result -- understeer. As everyone knows, donuts are impossible, but no one asks what that means for the rest of the physics engine. If something is broken that prevents a car from spinning around in place, what good is wheelspin/oversteer simulation at any speed?
If you don't believe me, watch Clarkson in the Top Gear episode where he plays GT4 and drives an NSX at Laguna Seca. Compare his clean, understeery driving in the game with the spins and oversteer he struggled with in the real car. The man even said himself that the game allows you to play with the throttle and brakes mid-corner with no penalty. Yet most people I saw praised the segment as another testament to GT4's greatness.
Don't get me wrong, if you're the type of person who doesn't care for tail-out RWD shenanigans and simply seeks a quick laptime, I can understand how GT4's flaws would be inconsequential, and how you would enjoy playing the game. But however you want to go about it, the game's physics are fundamentally flawed.
Meanwhile, GT5
remains an expensive demo for a system that isn't mine to use freely. I would like to get my hands on it for some real analysis, but I refuse to pay more than $10 until the actual game is released, especially with the Nürburgring missing. For what it's worth, I was impressed by the brief play opportunity I had with an older update.
If you don't believe me, watch Clarkson in the Top Gear episode where he plays GT4 and drives an NSX at Laguna Seca. Compare his clean, understeery driving in the game with the spins and oversteer he struggled with in the real car. The man even said himself that the game allows you to play with the throttle and brakes mid-corner with no penalty. Yet most people I saw praised the segment as another testament to GT4's greatness.
Don't get me wrong, if you're the type of person who doesn't care for tail-out RWD shenanigans and simply seeks a quick laptime, I can understand how GT4's flaws would be inconsequential, and how you would enjoy playing the game. But however you want to go about it, the game's physics are fundamentally flawed.
Meanwhile, GT5
remains an expensive demo for a system that isn't mine to use freely. I would like to get my hands on it for some real analysis, but I refuse to pay more than $10 until the actual game is released, especially with the Nürburgring missing. For what it's worth, I was impressed by the brief play opportunity I had with an older update.What the hell you are talking about? I passed every turn with almost every car in GT4 just simply pressing gas/brakes to the ground and turning wheel to maximal amplitude. It was just impossible to lose control and spin unless you won't try hard to do this on purpose
If there is any more unrealistic racing game with physics than GT4, I don't know any. Even old NFS 5 owns this "physics" very hard.
GT4 was a huge disappointment for me cause driving was plain boring and all cars drive same.
Prologue is completely different, it has far more physics than GT4 even on "standart", and "Pro" kick ass
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- 67
- GTP_BuzzOrHowl
Ok, I can agree that there should be more oversteer in GT4... and maybe if I went back to it now, I'd notice it more.
But remember that adding power can increase rear grip...
Most track cars, especially underpowered ones (like what a poor guy like me can afford to drive in real life) will understeer on power and only oversteer with reduced power such as throttle lift.
GT4 may have exaggerated this, as power oversteer was rare but throttle lift oversteer was very easy to induce in cars like the miata, elise, or karman ghia.
But remember that adding power can increase rear grip...
Most track cars, especially underpowered ones (like what a poor guy like me can afford to drive in real life
) will understeer on power and only oversteer with reduced power such as throttle lift. GT4 may have exaggerated this, as power oversteer was rare but throttle lift oversteer was very easy to induce in cars like the miata, elise, or karman ghia.
- 23,800
- Philippines
With TCS and ASM on full and R5 racing tires, I presume, going 60 km/h?
I don't know what you're smoking, but a lot of us here wasted months of our lives driving the Nurb on GT4. I've done 6 minute laps in the Escudo fer crying out loud... and I've driven 90% of the cars in-game on that track, on everything from N1s to R5s. Even with a racing car on R5s, there's never any real assurance that you're not going to break the rear end loose on the sweeping right after the Flugplatz... not unless you're driving at a mere 8/10ths.
If you get nothing but oversteer and understeer, you're driving too fast. If you've never experienced either, you're not driving fast enough.
The Vanishing Boy
Premium
- 9,000
- Quezon City, Philippines & Las Vegas, NV
- GTP_VanishingBoy
- Vanishing Boy
-> On my point on GT4, according to my drive in a 2004 S2000 (in which I also do drive it everyday in real life as my DD; although the GT4 version is powered by the F20, mine is the F22 engine with the same suspention specs). 
-> On GT4, tire choices are real difference between one another. GT4 replicated my S by 90-95% with N1 tires, while the S2 tires handled more like a Pontiac Solstice (base model) than an S2000. The GT4 car has that predictable understeer-to-oversteer nature as my DD, without the g-force sensation. Skipping the low-speed physics, the medium to high speed physics were definitely almost spot on. My S tend to be a tad nervous over 120 mph (200 km/h) in transitional lane changes on the interstate (due to lack of downforce and with the top down), on the GT4 (@ the Sarthe) it has that similar feeling although the steering feedback was numb. In transitional cornering, the weight transfer is almost coincedental, but the GT4 seems slower to respond compared to my DD. As with the real car, these cars need to driven in a clean-sheet manner, smooth and clean, it equates to a faster laptime.
-> And both my DD and the GT4 version are very hard cars to keep the drift. But on every sharp corner exit (like Tsukuba), these two have very much in common with a very gradual tail-sliding action.
-> Too bad both GTHD and GT5P (just the Amuse S2K GT-1) didn't feature a stock AP2 S2000, for me to verify that verdict. But my DFP broke while doing some very obnoxious D1-style drifts on GTHD that evidently ended its purpose. So I didn't get a chance of playing GT5P with any steering wheel.
-> On GT4, tire choices are real difference between one another. GT4 replicated my S by 90-95% with N1 tires, while the S2 tires handled more like a Pontiac Solstice (base model) than an S2000. The GT4 car has that predictable understeer-to-oversteer nature as my DD, without the g-force sensation. Skipping the low-speed physics, the medium to high speed physics were definitely almost spot on. My S tend to be a tad nervous over 120 mph (200 km/h) in transitional lane changes on the interstate (due to lack of downforce and with the top down), on the GT4 (@ the Sarthe) it has that similar feeling although the steering feedback was numb. In transitional cornering, the weight transfer is almost coincedental, but the GT4 seems slower to respond compared to my DD. As with the real car, these cars need to driven in a clean-sheet manner, smooth and clean, it equates to a faster laptime.
-> And both my DD and the GT4 version are very hard cars to keep the drift. But on every sharp corner exit (like Tsukuba), these two have very much in common with a very gradual tail-sliding action.
-> Too bad both GTHD and GT5P (just the Amuse S2K GT-1) didn't feature a stock AP2 S2000, for me to verify that verdict. But my DFP broke while doing some very obnoxious D1-style drifts on GTHD that evidently ended its purpose. So I didn't get a chance of playing GT5P with any steering wheel.
- 3,074
- Sydney
- mad94d
Yep, same here. I'm addicted.
I think GT5P is about 75% realistic. Steering is too light and it's a bit too hard to hold powerslides, and of course there isn't that same g-force and fear(of being able to throw it into a corner), but video games will never have that.
Overall, great game and by far the most realistic.👍
- 23,800
- Philippines
Then you're an exception to the general rule. All cars handle like crap with the assists turned on compared to assists off. As those of us who test with N and S tires can tell you, cars can get awfully squirrely in tight corners. If you've never experienced oversteer, you really aren't driving fast enough...
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=69127
(yes, that is an inside wheel lifting at the apex... but it took some curb-banging to get it up).
And, not coincidentally, there's an entire subforum devoted to GT4 drifting. You can go on all day about how there's too much understeer in GT4, and I won't completely disagree with you, but if you continue to claim that there is no oversteer, then you're barking up the wrong tree.
- 20,145
- Australia
- VIPERGTS01
Are you kidding? seriously?
You mustn't be pushing very hard if assist did basically nothing, when I forget to turn off assist and enter the first corner the car basically dies, the assist cuts engine power just from turning the wheel, the difference is phenomenal.
GT4 does lack a lot of power over mostly at low speeds but oversteer is easy with weight shifting.
The Vanishing Boy
Premium
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- Quezon City, Philippines & Las Vegas, NV
- GTP_VanishingBoy
- Vanishing Boy
Niky-> Right where the R390 is at, that is sooo Autumn Ring! Nice shot! 👍
-> I agree with VIPERGTS01, especially in the Nurbie Ring. Some cars can really bite you in the groin if you go too aggresive. But if you go too easy as what most people think here, then you're in plow town.
-> Back to the no oversteering issue, I attached one of my favorite cars in GT4. A bone stock 2004 Impreza WRX STi Sport Wagon doing the feint thingy:
-> I agree with VIPERGTS01, especially in the Nurbie Ring. Some cars can really bite you in the groin if you go too aggresive. But if you go too easy as what most people think here, then you're in plow town.
-> Back to the no oversteering issue, I attached one of my favorite cars in GT4. A bone stock 2004 Impreza WRX STi Sport Wagon doing the feint thingy:
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- AERO_HDT
- AERO_HDT
I got oversteer all the time on RWD cars. It was easy to get the power on too early, break rear traction and have to feed on opposite lock coming out of the corner.
Driving only 100 cars in GT4 means that you haven't played the game at all. That's like only playing 15% of the cars (granted some are similar).
GT4 is great fun with a wheel. Now that I have a DFGT, I'm going through it again, marvelling at how crap I am, hehe!
No racing game will ever be 100% like real life. There is no such thing at the moment that will accurately 100 percent replicate the feeling of driving a real car on a real road with compound rubber, mechanical parts, track temperature, etc etc. Not even the very best simulator in the world could accurately calculate and replicate the feel of a real car being driven on the edge.
Gran Turismo has a long way to go, but so to do other sims. There is no such thing as a perfect simulator. For me, Gran Turismo is accessible, has a great community around it, real life cars, real life tracks and is overall an excellent representation and is probably about as close as I'll ever get to driving some of those cars.
BTW, a Dodge Viper SRT10 is not a supercar. Supercars have their engines in the middle!
Driving only 100 cars in GT4 means that you haven't played the game at all. That's like only playing 15% of the cars (granted some are similar).
GT4 is great fun with a wheel. Now that I have a DFGT, I'm going through it again, marvelling at how crap I am, hehe!
No racing game will ever be 100% like real life. There is no such thing at the moment that will accurately 100 percent replicate the feeling of driving a real car on a real road with compound rubber, mechanical parts, track temperature, etc etc. Not even the very best simulator in the world could accurately calculate and replicate the feel of a real car being driven on the edge.
Gran Turismo has a long way to go, but so to do other sims. There is no such thing as a perfect simulator. For me, Gran Turismo is accessible, has a great community around it, real life cars, real life tracks and is overall an excellent representation and is probably about as close as I'll ever get to driving some of those cars.
BTW, a Dodge Viper SRT10 is not a supercar. Supercars have their engines in the middle!
- 5,603
- England, Warwickshire
- GTP_Sigma
Speaking as someone who's dad owns a drift experience business and has drift experience them self, Gran Turismo has unrealistically difficult drifting.
I think lfs's physics are pretty spot on in terms of low speed oversteer, I think a testament to this is lfs allows doughnut in modestly powered sports cars and gran turismo is reluctant to allow controllable consecutive doughnuts. gran turismo has realistic aspects but generally isn't quite on the same level of detail as lfs.
Maybe drifint is due to Force Feedback?
I cant drift, but from time to time I can pull out nice drift on some corners. I always play on FFB setting 10, When I switch to 2 I could do the drift way way easier..
Maybe feedback and controls are something to get use to? IDK but for me GT5P drift replays looks spot on almost, and in LFS I seen replays it looks bit more arcade. Well it's my fake opinion. Don't bash
Anyone that is professional drifter here? Share opinion.. Don't say my cousin drifts and GT5 is spot on, or is way off, because you are giving as much of good info as I am in these forums.
By the way, its funny when GT4 came out we compared it with different games, now with GT5P we try to compare it with few games, but mostly to real life! Of course it will never be perfect. I think another 10 more years and even PC sims will nail simulation except scare and G-force.
I cant drift, but from time to time I can pull out nice drift on some corners. I always play on FFB setting 10, When I switch to 2 I could do the drift way way easier..
Maybe feedback and controls are something to get use to? IDK but for me GT5P drift replays looks spot on almost, and in LFS I seen replays it looks bit more arcade. Well it's my fake opinion. Don't bash
Anyone that is professional drifter here? Share opinion.. Don't say my cousin drifts and GT5 is spot on, or is way off, because you are giving as much of good info as I am in these forums.
By the way, its funny when GT4 came out we compared it with different games, now with GT5P we try to compare it with few games, but mostly to real life! Of course it will never be perfect. I think another 10 more years and even PC sims will nail simulation except scare and G-force.
- 20,145
- Australia
- VIPERGTS01
I have done plenty of drifting over the years and GT5P is pretty close, not perfect but pretty close, But I never tried to compete as a pro, too hard on the car.
GT4 drifting was pretty much about just throwing the weight around but without a reducing radius corners it was hard to power through (sideways) while loosing sideways momentum, GT5P is much closer.
GT4 drifting was pretty much about just throwing the weight around but without a reducing radius corners it was hard to power through (sideways) while loosing sideways momentum, GT5P is much closer.
- 11,127
- Bromley
- V16T91
- E0nLeader
So you're saying it actually has a better drift model than GT3 if you know how to properly drift like a pro?
- 1,230
How come we're using drifting as a benchmark to measure GT5's realism? Aren't there any other factors we can consider?
I say Burnout Paradise is more realistic because it has better drift and physics!
ok back to topic
Every Sim Racing game always have good physics at High or low speeds, sometimes bit of both. So that meaning each game nails realism in some areas others don't. For me, GT5P is really realistic because it aims for more accurate lap times to real life counterpart, how cars behave on high speed turns and even some lower speed turns, also what speeds car can handle before going into a spin out. I always have to manage Correct throttle control and steering angle with my wheel to be smoother and faster. For some games I do not have to do that. It is a HUGE topic to state GT5P is realistic or not realistic by comparing with other games. So do better things then others. But for me, when I know I can achieve same time with lets say 350z on Suzuka to real life 350z on Suzuka, having same top speeds on Straights, similar speeds on turns, same braking zones, that is realism to me.
ok back to topic
Every Sim Racing game always have good physics at High or low speeds, sometimes bit of both. So that meaning each game nails realism in some areas others don't. For me, GT5P is really realistic because it aims for more accurate lap times to real life counterpart, how cars behave on high speed turns and even some lower speed turns, also what speeds car can handle before going into a spin out. I always have to manage Correct throttle control and steering angle with my wheel to be smoother and faster. For some games I do not have to do that. It is a HUGE topic to state GT5P is realistic or not realistic by comparing with other games. So do better things then others. But for me, when I know I can achieve same time with lets say 350z on Suzuka to real life 350z on Suzuka, having same top speeds on Straights, similar speeds on turns, same braking zones, that is realism to me.
- 2,080
- Oslo, Norway
- KaAre_kaNin
- 1,246
- belgium
- bertvw
You're not the only one, it even saved my life 2 times... And lots of other times i could have crashed.
I dare to say that it is tx too GT1, 2, 3, 4, 5P that I'm:
Being able to have the reflex to respond in milliseconds. And therefore not crash into someone.
Being able to avoid an understeering crash (with my 320) into a tree by the knowledge i learned in GT4 with the M3... etc..
Being able to understand what the hell is going on under me, in front of me, how the road should be readen, how everybody around is behaving. Ten years long it helped me to develop myself into who i am now. No kidding... And you can ask all my friends, were they feel themselves safest, at the long term... Yes in my car. Even if i drive a little faster then allowed. They know what i can. And they understand even better from where it comes...
What i try to say here is that in the past i needed to sometimes react within those milliseconds and just gave the steering wheel instinctively the right fast flick of countersteering while calmly coming off the brake on the moment you're downshifting heel toe... Just as I learned in the game. And then you sit there for a second and wonder what it would have been if you never ever played gt games.
I would be dead.
It becomes part of yr instinct. There is no other game that comes even close to such realism
And so to conclude, lots of money isn't where i am, and so a professional racing career is unreachable. Wich leaves me with Karting, Nordschleife, Zolder and GT
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