Human Rights

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I'm aware I'm being reductive but why does the prisoner have a roof over their head, food every day and toiletries when a homeless citizen doesn't have the same things guaranteed if it isn't a right?

Because a ward of a court is subject to the state's duty of care. If the state detains a person then they have to provide certain basic standards. A person walking around in the street isn't subject to the same interference from the state. There are lots of reasons why one might see injustice in that state of affairs and I probably agree.
 
Also it's worth pointing out here that we over-use incarceration and are moving (super slowly) away from that in terms of criminal justice.
I also think that's the right way to go. My philosophy on crime is that the response should be to restore whatever was lost. It shouldn't be about punishment or suffering. The closest I'll come to that is using deterrents against undesirable behaviors.
 
In most cases it's a violation of rights, specifically of the people who are footing the bill for incarceration. But since it doesn't have to be in all cases, I'd say that at its most fundamental what it is is a choice. A choice that the government makes to spend money on one group and not on another.

I donate to an orphanage in china each year. Is it their right to receive that donation? Why is it their right to receive a donation from me and not the right of some other orphanage? Do they not have more rights than the other orphanage that doesn't get a donation?

No, it's not their right, it's a choice. Mine. I choose to spend money on one and not the other. It's not even, because I chose for it not to be.

Edit:

I guess one of the big misunderstandings that is revealed here is that government behavior doesn't create rights and it isn't necessarily aligned with rights. When the US government didn't recognize black people as humans with rights, that didn't eliminate their rights, it violated them. What the government does or doesn't do often has less to do with human rights than we would all like.
Then that means people can argue against the current furore in the US about "concentration camps" by saying the illegal immigrants can't expect a basic standard of living.

....I'm not sure I agree with that.
 
But a homeless person won't be guaranteed a free bed, food and shower whereas the prisoner will be.

Are you suggesting it is better to be imprisoned then to be homeless? There are varying degrees of homelesness, there is a lot of nuance in being "homeless"What do you mean with being "homeless"?
 
Then that means people can argue against the current furore in the US about "concentration camps" by saying the illegal immigrants can't expect a basic standard of living.

No one can, because it requires you to force other people to give it to you. Whether or not they can force you into a cell is another matter entirely.
 
Are you suggesting it is better to be imprisoned then to be homeless? There are varying degrees of homelesness, there is a lot of nuance in being "homeless"What do you mean with being "homeless"?
I'm not sure - I don't have experience of either.

But with an average life expectancy in the forties for homeless people and the daily risk of abuse I may prefer to be in the prison system (UK).

No one can, because it requires you to force other people to give it to you. Whether or not they can force you into a cell is another matter entirely.
So is this line of thinking fundamentally wrong in this article:

As Democrats claimed the migrants were being denied basic human rights...

“How can anybody look at these photos and think this isn’t a human rights abuse,”
 
So is this line of thinking fundamentally wrong in this article:

As Democrats claimed the migrants were being denied basic human rights...

“How can anybody look at these photos and think this isn’t a human rights abuse,”

Basic human rights do not include food an shelter provided by others. But it does mean not incarcerating someone who has not infringed on the rights of others.
 
I'm not sure - I don't have experience of either.

But with an average life expectancy in the forties for homeless people and the daily risk of abuse I may prefer to be in the prison system (UK).
Is that average lifexpectancy of homeless in the UK? Could you point me to the correct source for that data?
 
Is that average lifexpectancy of homeless in the UK? Could you point me to the correct source for that data?
https://www.nhs.uk/news/lifestyle-and-exercise/homeless-die-30-years-younger-than-average/

I got the initial figures from a news source and didn't realise they were quoting the average age at death, which (I think) is different from life expectancy.

Basic human rights do not include food an shelter provided by others. But it does mean not incarcerating someone who has not infringed on the rights of others.
Are illegal immigrants infringing on the rights of others?
 
Are illegal immigrants infringing on the rights of others?

This is like asking "are people infringing on the rights of others". The answer is... sometimes. Sometimes people commit murder or theft. I'm sure the illegal immigrants also sometimes commit murder or theft. And so the answer is yes illegal immigrants are infringing on the rights of others, sometimes, but not simply because they are illegal immigrants.

Crossing a border into US territory without US immigration permission, without any further description of the event, is what you would describe as a malum prohibitum infraction rather than a malum in se infraction. In other words it is wrong because the statute says it is wrong and for no other reason.

So while I believe that the technical answer to you question is yes, they do infringe the rights of others (via other criminal acts such as the use of force against innocent people and the destruction or taking of property), they do not infringe the rights of others inherently by being illegal immigrants.
 
I'm wondering then, how should minimum standards of detention be arrived at then (and enforced), and is there any grounds for complaint when it is as traumatic as it's been reported recently
 
I'm wondering then, how should minimum standards of detention be arrived at then (and enforced), and is there any grounds for complaint when it is as traumatic as it's been reported recently

That's easy. People who have not infringed the rights of others should not be detained. ;)
 
Can we take it you are a fan of open borders?

Yup.

What I'm giving @HenrySwanson right now is the theory, not necessarily something that can be implemented exactly as-is. In reality, you don't know whether you're letting in someone who actually has human rights. You might be letting in a murderer, who has forfeited their rights through many crimes abroad. And so there is some diligence that makes sense for ascertaining a criminal history. And there's another question of what land they're going to set foot on. If it's private property, that's trespassing, and they have no right to trespass. If it's government property, it's still trespassing.

But if they were to find private property that would accept them, such as a landowner who was happy to allow immigrants to cross his land, then if those people are entitled to human rights, then we have no right to stop them.

So it's not as cut and dry as I've laid out, but almost. And our goal should be to approximate that level of cut-and-dry as much as possible.
 
Here's an interesting development:

Orangutan with human rights to begin new life in Florida
  • 27 September 2019

_109004783_3cc0afb1-113b-4fde-9d98-f2b235e108f8.jpg
Image copyrightREUTERS
Sandra covers her head with a cloth to protect herself from the public gaze at Buenos Aires Zoo (file photo)

An orangutan which spent 20 years in an Argentine zoo is being moved to a US animal sanctuary after being granted the same legal rights as humans.

Lawyers won a landmark appeal for Sandra in 2014, arguing she was being detained in Buenos Aires illegally.

The ruling found her to be Argentina's first "nonhuman person, with the right to liberty".

The 33-year-old arrived in Kansas on Friday and will undergo tests before moving to her new home in Florida.

Judge Elena Liberatori - who has a picture of Sandra in her office - told AP news agency she wanted her ruling to send a message: "That animals are sentient beings and that the first right they have is our obligation to respect them."

Sandra was born in an East German zoo and sold to Buenos Aires in 1995.

The orangutan spent much of her life in a solitary enclosure and regularly tried to avoid the public. She had a daughter in 1999, but the baby was taken away from her and sold to an animal park in China.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49856859
 
I actually tried to read some pages of the thread, but going through all 67 pages is something I dont have time for. Could you refer to specific sections that are more relevant to the origin of human rights? Do you consider the human rights thread as the universal settled interpretation of human rights? Am i not allowed to disagree?

Like you said discrimination is also initiation against the right to self. Do you consider force always to be violent? Isnt someone who is discriminated violated, although not always violent. Is violence a rule to violating rights?

Below are some snippets from past conversations you might drop in on. You basically have "might makes right" and "nothing makes right" - meaning, the ability to force someone to do something means you should be able to, and a recognition that the ability to produce force is arbitrary, and no more objectively valuable than the ability to produce anything else. To the person that thinks they can use (ultimately subjective reasons) to use force against those around them, they logically open themselves to the use of force (as a natural extension of their own actions). To those who do not, they do not logically open themselves to the use of force against them. This is the nature of human rights.

On the one hand, you have people who are willing to reciprocally treat others based on their own actions (not initiating force against people who do not do so against you) and people who are not willing to do so (initiating force against anyone). Human rights is just a term used to describe that reciprocity.

Yes how effectively they are used depends on how society implements their protection.



I guess I misunderstood you. I thought that this ^ conflicted with this:



If human rights are legal rights, they are subjective. However, I see now that you were making a different point - which is that human rights have no value if they aren't observed. You say that if there are no schemes of protection in place, they are worthless. What value is a right to a dead guy right?

I'd again argue the opposite. Human rights aren't worth the paper they aren't written on if they are never violated. I gave the example earlier in this thread of gravity. What good is it if I have a right for the earth's gravity to act on me. You can't violate that right. Nobody can. I will always have gravity acting on me regardless of whether it is my right or not, or whether others want to deprive me of that right or not.

It is exactly where we see human rights trampled where they matter. The Serengeti is exactly where human rights come into play. Lions don't recognize human rights, or the rights of any animal. Lions just go along living by the principle that whatever they want to do, whatever they are able to do, they will do. And so you end up with dead humans and dead gazelles. Here's the thing though, that's exactly the reason that human beings don't have to worry about the moral implications of killing a lion.

Nazi Germany is another example of human rights trampled rampantly, and it's exactly why every nation on Earth had the moral ability to overthrow the Nazi government and kill those who were defending it.

It's only where rights are trampled that they really matter. Rights are not a scheme of protection - they're not a force field - they're a method of objective assessment of action. It's not an argument against human rights to point to dead people and say "a lot of good it did them". Rights enable you to point to those dead people and objectively say "an injustice was done", and take future action knowing that you're not jeopardizing your own rights. Rights are why we can morally put people in jail, put people to death, or seize back stolen property. Rights are why you can shoot the guy who is threatening your life.

Ok, is there anything objectively better about being able to produce force, organize force, or defend against force than other skills? For example, is there a philosophically objective measure that says that the impala's beauty is an inferior attribute to the lion's strength? Is the ability to eat grass objectively less valuable than the ability to eat meat? Nature values force, but is that an objective value system?

If you think the answer is yes, demonstrate it.

Humans take this to extreme. Is a painter's ability to paint objectively inferior to a gladiator's ability to fight? Nature's value system puts the painter at a disadvantage.

"Be free", sortof.

Property rights are indeed derived from right to labor, which is derived from a right against the initiation of force. Your right against the initiation of force is actually the acknowledgement that someone who initiates force against you subscribes to a subjective value system, which allows you to conclude that they accept subjective values as a basis for interaction. What this means is that someone who violates your right against the initiation of force is actually announcing that their values allow you to use force against them.

All human rights are is an acknowledgement of the logical consequences of particular actions.

@Imari, I'm going to reorder your post so that the answers to some of these questions flow better. If you think I'm jumping around by talking about the damage incurred by infringing someone's property rights, I apologize. I'm only using it to help explain the concept of claiming unowned property.



All of the above confers ownership assuming that you had to actually lift or move both the red and green block when you placed one on the other. If you left the red block right where you found it and just put a green block on it, you own the green block and not the red block - because you transformed the green block and not the red block. The difference between that and number 1 is that by bonding them with a weak adhesive you made a new object (however tenuous that object is) and the new object belongs to you.

If you're walking through the woods and find a red block (as they occur naturally in nature, not as composed by man), and you pick it up, you have now inseparably mixed labor with the block. Yes, someone could point a gun at you and tell you to put it back, but all they would be doing is destroying what you had made, which was a block which had been transported to a new point in space via your labor. The analogy to this with the clay pot is that someone could smash your clay pot into little bits and perform various processes on it to separate the molecules in it and recombine them back into the mixture that they were originally found. The ability to destroy what someone has created has nothing to do with it. What matters is that they have created something, and we have no way of going back in time and preventing that - removing their labor from the resources they combined it with.



Not the point I was trying to make. If you go build something on land that I spent a lot of time developing plans for, you've destroyed (devalued completely) my product. It doesn't even matter whether it was worth anything to anyone else, it was worth something to me, and now it's not. Same thing with the clay pot, if you destroy it (render it worthless, render it valueless, render it purposeless, whatever) it doesn't matter whether the pot was worth anything to anyone else, it was worth something to me. You've destroyed my labor.

If you go bake a bunch of apple pies, my labor might be worth less in the marketplace, but you haven't forcibly destroyed what I made.



The design is for something to be built in this case, and let's pretend for a moment that it is specific to the particular plot of land. There's a hill, let's say, and I've put 20 homes along the hill so that they don't interfere with one another and placed a road such that drainage will function properly etc. etc.... a design that would be essentially garbage for any other plot of land. That design is labor, and it is inseparably mixed with that parcel of land. It is no different than any other type of labor with that resource.

Let's back up... why can you own anything? Why can I own the clay pot? You don't go far enough to see it here:



There's no reason to take self-ownership as an axiom. Why can't other people own you? Why should you get to say what you do with your body? After all, perhaps it is for the interests of others that you should be made to work, or killed, or something in between. You can't just assume that you own your body.

The reason that you own your body is... human rights. The lion doesn't care whether the gazelle owns it own body, it's going to eat that body (steal it) anyway. Might makes right. Except that might makes right is a value judgement that is subjective - valuing might above all else. We could just as easily have come up with any other arbitrary value judgment, such as smart makes right. The smartest person is deemed correct. Or art makes right, the person who sings the best, or draws the best gets their way. Or perhaps fast makes right. We'll just have a footrace to see who gets their way. There are literally an infinite number of versions of might makes right (not all of them rhyme).

I know of no objective reason why one person's will should supersede another's. The only objective behavior then is to NOT impose your will (initiate force) against others, for any reason, any subjective value system. If someone does it to you, it is only logical that you can play by their own rules. They agreed, after all, that some subjective reason was a good enough one to use force against you - and that is how the lion and gazelle interact. Valuing might. If the gazelle develops a gun (let's say the gazelle is a homo sapien) then the tables have turned.

The reason you can own something is because you have worked to produce it and taking it from you is the forcible deprivation of the results of that labor. So whatever constitutes an initiation of force is what I'm constantly looking for in these examples.

Getting back to the intellectual property example, if the land is not owned by anyone, and you labor to produce plans for it, if someone else takes that land, they're destroying your plans, the results of your labor. It is force against you. If you've done nothing with the land of course there is no way they would know (in the absence of sophisticated technology like an internet and computers). But of course if you let them know, then you've staked your claim.

If you say that's calling dibs, I'm fine with that. We're talking about resources that just exist... nobody owns them.




Everything can be forcibly separated. The point is whether you have destroyed someone's creation by separating it. That is what I mean by inseparable... inseparable without the initiation of force.




You created it at a particular location, presumably upright in a piece of land. Moving it does destroy that particular combination of matter.



That's kinda my point. Laboring with natural resources produces something and the fact that it did is immutable. If you destroy it now, you're forcefully destroying that labor. If you could keep your destruction limited to the original unowned natural resources without affecting what I created with my labor (such as the crane example) then you're not initiating force against me.




I don't find it any different.



Well nobody believes they can own it because all of the world governments have declared it so. But to simplify things, let's imagine for a moment that they all changed their mind tomorrow. If I simply say "Mars is mine", I have not created something that must be destroyed for someone else to have Mars. But if I say mars is mine and draw a sketch that involves developing every portion of mars, then I have a claim to it.

But let's say someone else showed up on mars and built a house. I take them to court based on my sketch (which I spent 2 hours on). The court looks at my sketch (which was dated) and realizes that I actually had a legitimate claim to the spot where the house was built. The court then instead of ordering the people who built the house to tear it down and give me my land back (which would be far more valuable than my sketch) orders the house-builders to pay me off for my lost value. They estimate the value of the sketch at $40.

Here's another way it could go. The court looks at my sketch (which was dated) and realizes that I actually had a legitimate claim to the spot where the house was built. However, since i made no effort to inform others of that right, the court decides, based on a purely pragmatic convention to facilitate the market, that I should be paid $0. There is no way the other people could have known that I had any claim to the property. This is fairly analogous to trademark in the US.

Yup.



Well it's fairly well documented in this thread. But the short version is that initiation of force against someone requires imposing a subjective value system on them which cannot be evaluated to be superior to whatever value system caused them to resist the force.

For example, suppose your rule of law is "might makes right". If you can get away with it, that's what you should do. This system values the ability to produce force over the inability to produce force. You could just have easily have said "smart makes right" or "the tallest person is right" or the prettiest, etc. etc. No one person's reason for forcing the people around them is more valid than anyone else's reason for not wanting to be forced.

You might say "but the greater good", but of course who defines that? It's subjective again. Even the notion that human beings should survive is subjective. So what you're left with is that the only objective, logical conclusion is that people should not initiate force against others to maintain objectivity.

When someone demonstrates a willingness to use force against others (say, a criminal) they're saying that their subjective reasons for doing so are good enough. And then you can explain to them that since they clearly demonstrated that that's good enough for them, we can also use subjective reasons to force them into jail. This introduces the necessary requirement of reciprocity of human rights.

You both seem to have the same misunderstanding, which is probably my fault.

No, not everything that can be violated is a right. My point was that things which cannot be violated (such as the speed of light, being acted upon by gravity, and moving forward through time) would be meaningless if they were rights. Why would you waste time making laws to prevent that which cannot happen? Rights are not guarantees of the behavior of those around you. If they were, there would be no need to talk about them because those around you could not do otherwise without violating the laws of nature.

In other words, the fact that rights can be violated is a necessary but not sufficient requirement for them to have meaning.

Human rights are a recognition of types of human behavior. That is all. They're not a force of nature, they're not a hand coming from the sky to prevent people from acting in a certain way. The recognition is simply the difference between those who would force the people around them based on subjectivity, and those who would not. That's it! Just categorizing two groups based on their actions. What societies do with those categories is up to them, and what they do with it might put them in one or the other group. For example, here are two scenarios:

A society that adheres to human rights might say "someone who is willing to use force against innocent people can be forced into jail". A society that doesn't adhere to human rights might say "someone who is willing to use force against innocent people should be encouraged". These are both options for behavior, and we can find examples of countries choosing both options through history. Those options come with logical consequences, which are that one of those societies, consistent with human rights, has an internal logical consistency that maintains objectivity. The other society doesn't, and to that extent, is a subjective system based on the whims of those with power.

From the perspective of objectivity, one of those societies might be considered legitimate while the other is not.


I also wrote this, separately

me
Richard Dawkins in The Selfish Gene explains how genes propagate, and how they use individual members of a species to do so. And he explained how to use game theory to understand how certain attributes will exist in distributions in populations. One of the attributes he demonstrates a usefulness for (genetically) is reciprocity - especially among animals that are capable of social interaction. He also demonstrates that there will be a stable but small population of cheaters that can survive within a largely reciprocal population. We all have a concept of fairness baked in, at the genetic level, in the form of reciprocity. And we also will be among cheaters, and individual cheaters can do very well for themselves (sometimes at the expense of the species in general). In fact, some of the most successful people in human history have been cheaters, and done great harm to the human species in the process. This is bad for gene propagation, and the rest of us don't like it, we feel that pretty deep.

Reciprocity recognizes an equivalent role and expectation among individuals in a given task. Cheaters reject this equivalence when they can get away with it. Fundamentally, at its most basic level, human rights is just a recognition of which choices an individual is making - to behave in a reciprocal, fair, even-handed manner - or to be a cheat. That's all human rights has to do. It doesn't have to be created, or imposed. It merely has to exist in logic as a self-consistent framework, and of course that framework has to be discovered. We can then determine whether someone's behavior is consistent with that self-consistent framework of reciprocity, or is inconsistent with it. And we can even make decisions based on that determination. For example it would be consistent, and reciprocal, from within that framework, to treat someone who rejects it according to that rejection. For example, if someone says "might makes right, that's the law of nature" when stealing from his neighbor, a person who is acting from a perspective of human rights might say "and since might makes right, and you're clearly cool with that, it will be perfectly even-handed when we all force you into jail".
 
But yes, if you put a real person in that situation and they opted to kill people, they are guilty of a human rights transgression. That does not necessarily mean that torture is an appropriate punishment. It certainly does not mean that eternal torture is an appropriate punishment, or even that there is no chance for redemption.

The punishment for killing someone to save other people should not (in my personal opinion) be the same as the punishment for killing someone just to kill them. The two acts demonstrate a difference of intent, and the sentencing should fit that intent. As I mentioned before, rights don't particularly inform punishment.

This answer does show you differentiate violations on intent. That does contrast the idea that there is no justification (for example by intent). Or do you seperate the punishment from the actual violation on the basis of intent?

Yes, I differentiate the punishment from the violation. If you accidentally kill someone with your car, you do infringe their rights, but you have not demonstrated a lack of willingness to observe the rights of others. You might have if you had been grossly negligent, but it would depend on your own actions or intent. Sentencing should be proportionate, and take into account the intent of the act.
 
Yes, I differentiate the punishment from the violation. If you accidentally kill someone with your car, you do infringe their rights, but you have not demonstrated a lack of willingness to observe the rights of others. You might have if you had been grossly negligent, but it would depend on your own actions or intent. Sentencing should be proportionate, and take into account the intent of the act.

So do you think the characters belong in the bad place?
 
So do you think the characters belong in the bad place?

Eternal torture for killing someone is disproportionate. Especially in the circumstances of the trolley problem. I don't believe that hell can ever really be justified. See pascal's wager for more on that, or ask me and I can elaborate.
 
Eternal torture for killing someone is disproportionate. Especially in the circumstances of the trolley problem. I don't believe that hell can ever really be justified. See pascal's wager for more on that, or ask me and I can elaborate.

What if he Trolly problem (as depicted in the good place) happened in real life. If the person on the trolly chooses to change track and kill the 1 person. Should he be convicted for murder? And what if he chose to do nothing. Should he be convicted as innocent?
 
What if he Trolly problem (as depicted in the good place) happened in real life. If the person on the trolly chooses to change track and kill the 1 person. Should he be convicted for murder? And what if he chose to do nothing. Should he be convicted as innocent?

Well the literal trolley problem in real life is going to be hard to come by. But you could come by a surrogate pretty easily. Like the notion of stealing a loaf of bread from a grocery store to give to 5 homeless people. Yes you'd get convicted for that. And no you would not be convicted if you let the 5 homeless people starve to death (unless you're in germany maybe).

Yes, you should be convicted for killing someone in the trolley problem, and not convicted when you do not kill someone. But the sentence should not be the same as if you randomly shot someone, it's not the same intent. I'm not sure exactly what the conviction would be under US law. Maybe voluntary manslaughter, as opposed to first or second degree murder.
 
Well the literal trolley problem in real life is going to be hard to come by. But you could come by a surrogate pretty easily. Like the notion of stealing a loaf of bread from a grocery store to give to 5 homeless people. Yes you'd get convicted for that. And no you would not be convicted if you let the 5 homeless people starve to death (unless you're in germany maybe).

Yes, you should be convicted for killing someone in the trolley problem, and not convicted when you do not kill someone. But the sentence should not be the same as if you randomly shot someone, it's not the same intent. I'm not sure exactly what the conviction would be under US law. Maybe voluntary manslaughter, as opposed to first or second degree murder.

Killing (involuntary) without intent is manslaughter. Hypothetically in the case of you on the Trolley and choosing to not change the tracks and save 5 (and kill 1) would that be manslaughter?
 
Killing (involuntary) without intent is manslaughter. Hypothetically in the case of you on the Trolley and choosing to not change the tracks and save 5 (and kill 1) would that be manslaughter?

Huh?

I'm saying switching tracks (killing one to save 5) might be voluntary manslaughter (it's a thing), whereas not switching tracks is not a moral transgression, it violates no one's rights.
 
whereas not switching tracks is not a moral transgression, it violates no one's rights.
Wut? At the least you'd get involuntary manslaughter. And I still don't get how you think doing nothing is moral(and don't bring up the starving kid in Africa) the operator of the trolly or the guy that switchs the tracks are responsible even if they don't do anything. They have a job ya know.
How about simply hitting the emergency brake or is that too realistic to be involved in the scenario?
 
Wut? At the least you'd get involuntary manslaughter. And I still don't get how you think doing nothing is moral(and don't bring up the starving kid in Africa) the operator of the trolly or the guy that switchs the tracks are responsible even if they don't do anything. They have a job ya know.

Doing nothing is (nearly) always moral. You are not responsible for the infinite number of things you don't do at every second (ie: Africa). If you do something, like knowingly send a Trolley at someone who cannot escape, you have committed a moral transgression.

How about simply hitting the emergency brake or is that too realistic to be involved in the scenario?

It defeats the purpose of the scenario, which is to explore morality.
 
Wut? At the least you'd get involuntary manslaughter.
That's law, not morality (or rights). Laws can be immoral and unjust.
And I still don't get how you think doing nothing is moral(and don't bring up the starving kid in Africa) the operator of the trolly or the guy that switchs the tracks are responsible even if they don't do anything. They have a job ya know.
How about simply hitting the emergency brake or is that too realistic to be involved in the scenario?
The scenario is a hypothetical, which involves an out of control "something" which will inevitably cause damage/injury if it continues on its path but which an onlooker has a single opportunity to divert its path to another one that will inevitably cause damage/injury to fewer things. It assumes that there is no other possible way of controlling the "something" except the onlooker's ability to divert it.

Generally it's also a start point for further hypothetical scenarios. The fewer things may hold greater perceived value, or greater personal value, that make it harder to judge whether it's better to intervene or not - the five people the trolley may kill might be convicted paedophiles mid-sentence on a day release, while the one may be your mother/sister/offspring. The one might be a research scientist on their way to deliver a revolutionary cure for HIV/cancer/malaria, while the five might be your nearest family members and pets.

But morally you have no responsibility for your non-actions. It's impossible to be morally responsible for a single non-action without being responsible for all actions you could possibly have ever taken but did not, and the unintended consequences of not taking those actions further downstream*. So either you are not responsible for non-actions, or you are responsible for all of them. That would mean you are responsible for taking a life if, at any point in yours, you could have taken an action that would have prevented its loss - including not studying as a doctor, not joining Medicins Sans Frontieres, not going to South Sudan, and not healing the sick. Or not studying as an engineer, not devoting yourself to civil engineering, not spotting a design flaw in a bridge, and not alerting anyone to prevent it from collapsing. Or not becoming a pilot and not safely landing a stricken airliner. And none of these are mutually exclusive - the doctor becomes responsible for the bridge collapse, the engineer for the plane crash, and the pilot for the ebola outbreak.

Obviously being held responsible for things you haven't done - unless specifically your job to do them, like not safely securing your child in their car seat as a parent, or not performing a safety check on a railway line as a line engineer; even then we sometimes permit people not to do their job, such as a DNR order meaning a doctor cannot resuscitate a patient - is not a sane position to hold.

In the trolley problem your choices are to perform no action whatosever (moral), or to execute another human being (immoral).


*which, ironically, is part of the further developments of the scenario; if you kill the researcher to save your family, are you responsible for taking all of the lives they could have saved but now won't? Anyone who would argue that you are not is also required to argue that you're not responsible for not acting in the first place, but few who think you are responsible for inaction also think you are responsible for downstream results of actions. Such unintended consequences are actually key part of the initial resolution of the TV show referenced above, but sadly not properly acknowledged.
 
Huh?

I'm saying switching tracks (killing one to save 5) might be voluntary manslaughter (it's a thing), whereas not switching tracks is not a moral transgression, it violates no one's rights.

I guess that is where our paths deviate. I do understand the choice being moral for many, but I get annoyed when people just say that any other choice is "wrong".

I do want to stress there is no correct or incorrect answer to the problem. It depends on ideology. Not doing anything and let 5 people die is interily moral, does differentiate in the eye of the beholder.
 
It depends on ideology

It doesn't.

I depends on logic. It is impossible to hold someone responsible for the infinity of choices which they did not make. You appear to have no rebuttal to this. What answer do you have for the fact that you constantly, every day, do not flip that switch, even when no one is on the other track. You not only misunderstand the nature of action here, but you do so in a way that would presumably condemn you if you were right.
 
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