Hydraulic Brake Build [V2] (G27 Based)

  • Thread starter pilmat
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good stuff, any chance of a side on video on a road course? By the way you are coming off the brakes I can tell there is plenty of modulation there. How much pedal travel do you get before it stiffens?
 
ravey1981
good stuff, any chance of a side on video on a road course? By the way you are coming off the brakes I can tell there is plenty of modulation there. How much pedal travel do you get before it stiffens?
Click to expand...

No problem :) I'll try to get it done by the weekend!
 
RSwagoneer
Any news here? It's been too quiet too long?
Click to expand...

Sorry for no updates in a while, I was under a K&N NASCAR at Daytona :D

I have another build with a revised hydraulic system coming up. The initial part I needed for trial fitting came in the day I left for Daytona, so it will be early next week when I can get to it.

In the mean time, I have been running the V1.2 with the aluminum base plate for quite some time. It is proving very reliable and when people swap back and forth between the two rigs (one with a GTEye spring in otherwise stock G27 pedals) there is not enough difference to get the initial WOW factor to overcome the price of the parts.

The new config (it will start off as V2.0) will offer a slightly different approach that I think I can build more adjustability into for a lower cost. News to follow... :)
 
ravey1981
looking forward to seeing the new idea.....
Click to expand...

👍

And I still owe you a side view video! I haven't forgotten, but am getting quite limited on time (I like to have a life too :))
 
pilmat
Sorry for no updates in a while, I was under a K&N NASCAR at Daytona :D

I have another build with a revised hydraulic system coming up. The initial part I needed for trial fitting came in the day I left for Daytona, so it will be early next week when I can get to it.

In the mean time, I have been running the V1.2 with the aluminum base plate for quite some time. It is proving very reliable and when people swap back and forth between the two rigs (one with a GTEye spring in otherwise stock G27 pedals) there is not enough difference to get the initial WOW factor to overcome the price of the parts.

The new config (it will start off as V2.0) will offer a slightly different approach that I think I can build more adjustability into for a lower cost. News to follow... :)
Click to expand...

No need to apologize, just wondering 👍
 

There were things I liked and didn't like about the initial build. Here were the design goals for V2:
  • Avoid the aluminum plate
  • Smaller master cylinder for better modulation (use stiffer elastomers for travel control)
  • Re-use the G27 pedal

Here is the result. It is a 1/2" bore master cylinder mounted to the G27 pedal. The angle of attachment is 17.5 degrees to suit the Human Racing GT Chassis. The base plate will need the carpet gripper partially cut out to accommodate the lever. The lever has 3 adjustment positions for better modulation control, a push rod will be inserted between the stock G27 pedal and the lever.




​

V2 will take a bit more time to put together as I,m swamped with real car work (our shock dyno arrives next week :)). I'll update as I go along. The slave is in transit and I have a cover/base from a G27 (could use a full donor pedal set...) and the DSD controller is in stock. I'll order the sensor as soon as I need it (next day delivery) and we'll "Git 'Er Dun" :dopey:
 
pilmat

There were things I liked and didn't like about the initial build. Here were the design goals for V2:
  • Avoid the aluminum plate
  • Smaller master cylinder for better modulation (use stiffer elastomers for travel control)
  • Re-use the G27 pedal

Here is the result. It is a 1/2" bore master cylinder mounted to the G27 pedal. The angle of attachment is 17.5 degrees to suit the Human Racing GT Chassis. The base plate will need the carpet gripper partially cut out to accommodate the lever. The lever has 3 adjustment positions for better modulation control, a push rod will be inserted between the stock G27 pedal and the lever.




​

V2 will take a bit more time to put together as I,m swamped with real car work (our shock dyno arrives next week :)). I'll update as I go along. The slave is in transit and I have a cover/base from a G27 (could use a full donor pedal set...) and the DSD controller is in stock. I'll order the sensor as soon as I need it (next day delivery) and we'll "Git 'Er Dun" :dopey:
Click to expand...

Very clean, tidy and efficient integration 👍
 
I wonder if it's somehow possible to use a real ABS system somehow with the game output.
That is if one would get really fancy with their brakes.

You'd have to have 1 master cylinder, ABS pump, valve system, controller and 4 slave cylinders.

You'd then need to use something like an Arduino or something to send game data to the controller of the pump to 'fool' it into thinking a real car is at work.
So you'd have to send the data of each wheel's speed to the controller. At which point it will work out for itself if it needs to activate.

I believe Fanaleds already uses ABS output of various games. Though I don't know if this is on a per tire basis.

This does mean one thing though. If it would work, you could switch off your 'emulated ABS' in the game's options/aids menu and use a switch for example to turn on your 'real' ABS.
Thus in return getting very different results and moving the functions from the game code to the input device. Like Leo Bodnar talked about (though with FFB systems) in his FFB wheel article.

Sorry, just talking wild for a moment here to maybe give someone (or maybe you Pilmat) a new idea. :)
 
Awesome job on the V2 pilmat.👍
I've been keeping track of the goings on here and the related thread.:drool:

A thought occurred to me yesterday; Will there be any design adjustment to cater for the inverse pedal mount?
No need for a change I would think, but maybe an alternate design for that format to go along side.
It is looking most marketable and I thought this would open the market up.
Please disregard all of the above, if you have already sussed out a solution. ;)
 
Great job mate!

TSS are working on something similer:
27353440.jpg


67482608.jpg


muellesensor1.jpg
 
zed300
Awesome job on the V2 pilmat.👍
I've been keeping track of the goings on here and the related thread.:drool:

A thought occurred to me yesterday; Will there be any design adjustment to cater for the inverse pedal mount?
No need for a change I would think, but maybe an alternate design for that format to go along side.
It is looking most marketable and I thought this would open the market up.
Please disregard all of the above, if you have already sussed out a solution. ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the encouragement 👍

I haven't seriously though about inverted pedals. Personally, I don't like them and this build is part of a stream of thought (the Sim Break Thoughts thread) it was to be testing of a theory. Hanging pedals create a large work around for hydraulics (much as they do in real cars), but I'm sure someone will tackle this one :)

wajdi1977
Great job mate!

TSS are working on something similar:
Click to expand...

The TSS solution is quite interesting, I'm amazed at the price :eek: Time will tell how compact you can go while still improving the feel over a spring. The sensor is a volt one and not a milivolt one with an amp, so it will require whatever pressure the sensor is tuned to to get decent range, but these are all design parameters that need to worked out by TSS to suit sim racer's needs.

LogiForce
I wonder if it's somehow possible to use a real ABS system somehow with the game output...
Click to expand...

LogiForce, I'll answer this over in the Sim Brake Thoughts thread :)
 
Pilmat, which sensor are you using? Still looking for one but I can only find sensors with a decent membrane of around 180 euros. :S
 
LogiForce
Pilmat, which sensor are you using? Still looking for one but I can only find sensors with a decent membrane of around 180 euros. :S
Click to expand...

Ouch, 180 euros :yuck:

The one I am using is the same model I used on V1, a Millivolt Pressure Sensor: M3421-000006-01KPG from DigiKey (thanks to Derek Speare for this one 👍).

PM me and I'll look for something for you tomorrow. I've seen an adjustable switch in a race catalog. It might suit your needs :)
 
Hello pilmat! I'm so sad that I've found this thread so late, but I'm so happy that I've found it at all (tada!) ;) I can see you made huge library of hydraulic knowledge here. Your projects look very nice, please keep up the good work.

At the moment I gathering all the stuff to make hydraulic brake mod for my t500 pedals. I bought master cylinder (sadly the 3/4'' version ;/ but give it a try) and Derek's 12bit controller (should have it after Christmas). Now I need to buy slave pull cylinder and the sesnsor. This is not good that my budget is so low so I'm trying to play with the cheaper options first.

How do You think - can I buy: http://www.ebay.pl/itm/Speedway-Pul...?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item53f4950dfb&_uhb=1

this one os the cheapest one with shipping to my country.

And one more question - I'd like to try the cheaper pressure sensor (Derek provides link for ebay) with 3 (not 4 as yours) wires. You connect it to the pots input, and I think You cannot adjust the gain ;/ But I guess if You chose the sensor properly it is not nessesery. What do You think about it? Derek suggest 1000psi sensor but You wrote that pressure never goes over 300psi. Maybe it is solution for me - to buy 300psi sensor? You can always calibrate max/min using DXTweak.


Best regards pilmat and looking forward Your oppinion and future posts!
 
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gorzasty
Hello pilmat! I'm so sad that I've found this thread so late, but I'm so happy that I've found it at all (tada!) ;) I can see you made huge library of hydraulic knowledge here. Your projects look very nice, please keep up the good work.

At the moment I gathering all the stuff to make hydraulic brake mod for my t500 pedals. I bought master cylinder (sadly the 3/4'' version ;/ but give it a try) and Derek's 12bit controller (should have it after Christmas). Now I need to buy slave pull cylinder and the sesnsor. This is not good that my budget is so low so I'm trying to play with the cheaper options first.

How do You think - can I buy: http://www.ebay.pl/itm/Speedway-Pul...?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item53f4950dfb&_uhb=1

this one os the cheapest one with shipping to my country.

And one more question - I'd like to try the cheaper pressure sensor (Derek provides link for ebay) with 3 (not 4 as yours) wires. You connect it to the pots input, and I think You cannot adjust the gain ;/ But I guess if You chose the sensor properly it is not nessesery. What do You think about it? Derek suggest 1000psi sensor but You wrote that pressure never goes over 300psi. Maybe it is solution for me - to buy 300psi sensor? You can always calibrate max/min using DXTweak.


Best regards pilmat and looking forward Your oppinion and future posts!
Click to expand...

I really need to get back to this project! (maybe Santa will bring me a sensor for Christmas, it's all I need to get this moving again)

For the slave cylinder, most are 5/8" bore so they should work. Just make sure it is a pull type. Send me a PM, we may be able to make shipping much cheaper :)

Adjusting the sensor is a critical step, in my opinion. It gives you the opportunity to choose your elastomer feel and then put the brake pedal where you want it. You could choose very small pedal movement (i.e. hard elastomers) and then dial in the modulation you want, or really soft elastomers and then dial back the sensitivity to allow for the increased travel.

For the pressure range, a minimum of 1000 psi is necessary. If you choose too low of a range, a panic braking might damage your sensor.

You don't think you panic brake? I teach real world drivers on our simulators and it is impressive to see their "panic reflex". I had one amateur panic mid corner and press the clutch :nervous:. Needless to say they started to understand why they spun a lot!! They also understood why their team had made their car so understeery, they kept telling them that the back end was stepping out as a cause to the spin. Using a Replay camera while on the simulator can tell you a LOT about how you drive.

Let me know if I can help you with any more info.

Edit: I'm looking for another set of G27/G25 pedals. I put a post in the trading post.
 
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First of all, glad to see you back on the web. I was kinda worried with your last post here being from March end all.

I ended up with a 1600 psi sensor (one of those Derek recommended) on the handbrake. Didn't fail me yet, and I pulled so hard on the handbrake that it was fully engaged. So that's a good sign. No worry about panic handbrake pulls.
Also used the same VW clutch slave cylinder as you used.

Btw, which combination of elastomers did you use in the end? I reckon the road car combination is different from the race car one.


Awesome to hear about the usefulness of simulators for once. I guess sims really are getting very close to the real thing, enough for drivers to drive as in real life with the correct consequences of their style.

In any case... welcome back! :gtpflag:
 
LogiForce
First of all, glad to see you back on the web. I was kinda worried with your last post here being from March end all.

I ended up with a 1600 psi sensor (one of those Derek recommended) on the handbrake. Didn't fail me yet, and I pulled so hard on the handbrake that it was fully engaged. So that's a good sign. No worry about panic handbrake pulls.
Also used the same VW clutch slave cylinder as you used.

Btw, which combination of elastomers did you use in the end? I reckon the road car combination is different from the race car one.


Awesome to hear about the usefulness of simulators for once. I guess sims really are getting very close to the real thing, enough for drivers to drive as in real life with the correct consequences of their style.

In any case... welcome back! :gtpflag:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the warm welcome back. Things got a bit out of hand over the summer and have finally calmed down :)

This is the last elastomer stack I installed and has been used extensively over the year. The control harmony with the other inputs has been very well received by most that try it.

The conic blues are Doh-Dohs.
 
JogoAsobi
@ Pilmat: Have you seen this G27 Brake Mod? ISR featured it a few shows back.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link! I had seem it back on post #136 above from wajdi1977, and I had seen the original post where it appeared. Back then they said it was going to be something like $40-50, and I couldn't fathom how they were going to do that. Seems reality caught up to them and the pricing is appropriate for what they are doing. I think that would be even better with a progressive spring ;)
 
pilmat
Thanks for the link! I had seem it back on post #136 above from wajdi1977, and I had seen the original post where it appeared. Back then they said it was going to be something like $40-50, and I couldn't fathom how they were going to do that. Seems reality caught up to them and the pricing is appropriate for what they are doing. I think that would be even better with a progressive spring ;)
Click to expand...

What kind of spring sits in a master cylinder normally? Also progressive?
 

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