I am sure you are all aware of the racist issues after Katrina's pass over NO...

[Danoff]

Choice has nothing to do with it. Choice is (usually) a privilege that comes with wealth. Most poor people who were left behind did not choose to stay. They were forced to stay as they had no means to leave.

Bologna. They could have left if they wanted to. I'm sure even the poorest of the poor could have found ways out of that city. But either way, they chose to be poor.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Choice has nothing to do with it. Choice is (usually) a privilege that comes with wealth.

Which is why it should be the government's responsibility to promote equity.

Most poor people who were left behind did not choose to stay. They were forced to stay as they had no means to leave.

Put simply, lack of equity.

Bologna. They could have left if they wanted to. I'm sure even the poorest of the poor could have found ways out of that city. But either way, they chose to be poor.

You don't know the circumstances. You cannot assume that everyone had a way out of the city.

[sarcasm]It was their "choice", though, remember? They didn't place enough importance on their survival to have to pay for it... [/sarcasm]

Dan, please explain what you meant by "it was their choice"?

Brian, that's sad. You should know better than to suggest that the libertarians and republicans are so similar. I find it offensive.

That's just my observation...

They chose to be poor. They chose to be unable to help themselves. Yes, they chose to die.

That defies logic. Isn't survival a part of basic human instinct?

I'm well aware of that portion of American history. If you understand American government you'll understand the important role that state governments play.

State governments are very important. It sounded to me like you wanted devolution of the extreme kind.

 

[Danoff]

[sarcasm]It was their "choice", though, remember? They didn't place enough importance on their survival to have to pay for it... [/sarcasm]

What are we really talking about here? We're talking about hopping on a bus to a town slightly to the north of NO. We're talking about a $50 bus ticket? Less? They could have WALKED far enough to get out of the city. Many of them did walk far enough after the fact.

They felt that the odds were that they could wait it out. The dice didn't roll in their favor.

Dan, please explain what you meant by "it was their choice"?

They chose to be poor. Every human being has a choice about his/her future at every time. When they were 8 they could have chosen to study, or play outside, or do drugs. When they were 15 they could have chosen to study, or have sex, or steal, or do drugs, or investigate colleges and find scholarships to apply for.

When they were 20 they could have chosen to go to a trade school, get a scholarship to college, take out of one of the multitudes of student loans, or take the easy way out.

The poor in this country are the ones that avoided hard work at every stage. They're the ones that chose not to work hard in school, not to go to school longer than they had to, not to wait to have sex, to do drugs and mess up their minds, to steal rather than work, to get government assistance rather than be productive.

I don't believe that anyone's future is set. I don't believe that there is a single person in the US who HAS to be where he/she is today. And so the amount of money we have is a choice. The jobs we have, the roles we play in society are our choice. If you have less money in your bank account than I do it is because you chose to... you found that balance between hard work/money/relaxation to be the right one. That's fine. That's why our system is such a fine one. You get to chose the balance that's right for you.


That being said it required zero dollars to get out of NO.

 

[Swift]

How about this? Being poor doesn't mean you're black. And being black doesn't mean you're poor. 💡 I'm black and thank God I'm not poor. Now, I'm really totally bored of our media system doing 2 things at things at the same time that contradict or justify each other(depending on your point of view)

1. Showing black people not getting help from the gov't during the major part of the evacuation
2. Showing black people looting any/everything

So are they saying that they're justified because the didn't get help? Or that they're "Bad" for looting Wal-Mart and other stores?

That's what I can't stand about our media. All the stuff that Danoff, Brian and TM have been talking about wouldn't be a huge deal if the media didn't use extremely selective information to portray the scene.

What happened was bad on all counts. But to be honest, Why would you live in a city that is literally underwater that is next to the most famous river in America and the largest Gulf in the Western Hemisphere? I'm just wondering on that one myself. You might say, they were too poor to move. I say they were to lazy to make the effort and take the risk to move. That's what I say. But hey, that's just me.

 

[Danoff]

That defies logic. Isn't survival a part of basic human instinct?

Yes. Which is why there was so much looting going on. But to avoid something like this takes forethought. It takes more than a knee-jerk survival instinct.

 

[Danoff]

I say they were to lazy to make the effort and take the risk to move. That's what I say. But hey, that's just me.

👍

 

[Grand Prix]

What are we really talking about here? We're talking about hopping on a bus to a town slightly to the north of NO. We're talking about a $50 bus ticket? Less? They could have WALKED far enough to get out of the city. Many of them did walk far enough after the fact.

They felt that the odds were that they could wait it out. The dice didn't roll in their favor.



They chose to be poor. Every human being has a choice about his/her future at every time. When they were 8 they could have chosen to study, or play outside, or do drugs. When they were 15 they could have chosen to study, or have sex, or steal, or do drugs, or investigate colleges and find scholarships to apply for.

When they were 20 they could have chosen to go to a trade school, get a scholarship to college, take out of one of the multitudes of student loans, or take the easy way out.

The poor in this country are the ones that avoided hard work at every stage. They're the ones that chose not to work hard in school, not to go to school longer than they had to, not to wait to have sex, to do drugs and mess up their minds, to steal rather than work, to get government assistance rather than be productive.

I don't believe that anyone's future is set. I don't believe that there is a single person in the US who HAS to be where he/she is today. And so the amount of money we have is a choice. The jobs we have, the roles we play in society are our choice. If you have less money in your bank account than I do it is because you chose to... you found that balance between hard work/money/relaxation to be the right one. That's fine. That's why our system is such a fine one. You get to chose the balance that's right for you.


That being said it required zero dollars to get out of NO.

How the heck can an average person get a university education/job if colleges are overcrowded and there's unemployment? How the heck is a homeless person going to apply for a white collar job if he can't afford a suit for a job interview?

 

[MrktMkr1986]

What are we really talking about here? We're talking about hopping on a bus to a town slightly to the north of NO. We're talking about a $50 bus ticket? Less? They could have WALKED far enough to get out of the city. Many of them did walk far enough after the fact.

Those who could have walked did, I would assume... I too wasn't there. $50 doesn't sound like much, but again, you cannot assume that everyone has money.

They felt that the odds were that they could wait it out. The dice didn't roll in their favor.

Those who chose to stay, chose to stay. Those who wanted to leave, but couldn't, is a different story.

They chose to be poor. Every human being has a choice about his/her future at every time. When they were 8 they could have chosen to study, or play outside, or do drugs. When they were 15 they could have chosen to study, or have sex, or steal, or do drugs, or investigate colleges and find scholarships to apply for.

When they were 20 they could have chosen to go to a trade school, get a scholarship to college, take out of one of the multitudes of student loans, or take the easy way out.

The poor in this country are the ones that avoided hard work at every stage. They're the ones that chose not to work hard in school, not to go to school longer than they had to, not to wait to have sex, to do drugs and mess up their minds, to steal rather than work, to get government assistance rather than be productive.

All things being equal, I would have to agree. However, there are other forces at work...

I don't believe that anyone's future is set. I don't believe that there is a single person in the US who HAS to be where he/she is today.

That sounds very idealistic.

And so the amount of money we have is a choice. The jobs we have, the roles we play in society are our choice. If you have less money in your bank account than I do it is because you chose to... you found that balance between hard work/money/relaxation to be the right one. That's fine. That's why our system is such a fine one. You get to chose the balance that's right for you.

Again, all things being equal I would agree. However, this is not the case.

Yes. Which is why there was so much looting going on. But to avoid something like this takes forethought. It takes more than a knee-jerk survival instinct.

True.

That's what I can't stand about our media. All the stuff that Danoff, Brian and TM have been talking about wouldn't be a huge deal if the media didn't use extremely selective information to portray the scene.

Agreed.

How the heck is a homeless person going to apply for a white collar job if he can't afford a suit for a job interview?

👍

 

[Arwin]

Just wanted to point out that those who tried to walk out of the city were stopped on the bridge over the mississippi by a cordon of police officers from the neigboring (wealthy) community (forgot its name New Dale or something) - even the Army wasn't allowed IN to New Orleans without a fuss.

I also think this wasn't as much about race nearly as much as it was about money. Poverty is a big issue in the U.S., and certainly also in New Orleans.

 

[Danoff]

Those who could have walked did, I would assume... I too wasn't there. $50 doesn't sound like much, but again, you cannot assume that everyone has money.

Not everyone who could have walked did. And almost every single human being in America could pay for a bus ticket - at least put one on a credit card (most people have those). The very very very few who didn't have $50 and didn't have the ability to walk out of the city were counting on charity. But it was their choice not to have $50 to get out of the city. I think maybe a dozen people in all of this fit that criteria.

All things being equal, I would have to agree. However, there are other forces at work...

The playing field is equal. It is the starting position that is not equal... but that's the way it has to be because nothing else would work. And you can agree with what a wrote even if the starting point isn't equal.

I don't believe that anyone's future is set. I don't believe that there is a single person in the US who HAS to be where he/she is today.

That sounds very idealistic.

When you think about it, there is no way I can be wrong. It's not idealistic, it's an obvious fact.

How the heck is a homeless person going to apply for a white collar job if he can't afford a suit for a job interview?

Ever heard of Godwill? Who said anything about a white collar job?

Do you think that any homeless person in the US today HAD to end up homeless? Or do you think it is at least partly the result of the choices those people have made?

 

[Danoff]

Just wanted to point out that those who tried to walk out of the city were stopped on the bridge over the mississippi by a cordon of police officers from the neigboring (wealthy) community (forgot its name New Dale or something) - even the Army wasn't allowed IN to New Orleans without a fuss.

That was after the storm hit. I was talking about after they recieved warning to get out.

I also think this wasn't as much about race nearly as much as it was about money. Poverty is a big issue in the U.S., and certainly also in New Orleans.

We're not really talking about much money here... if any.

 

[Swift]

Just wanted to point out that those who tried to walk out of the city were stopped on the bridge over the mississippi by a cordon of police officers from the neigboring (wealthy) community (forgot its name New Dale or something) - even the Army wasn't allowed IN to New Orleans without a fuss.

This is true. But how about BEFORE the hurricane hit? They had at least what, 2-3 days warning? You could easily get out of there within a day or so. Yes it would mean giving up all your earthly possesions. But didn't that happen anyway?

Edit: Doh! Danoff beat me to it.

Well, I thought this was going to go in the direction of how the media has jacked up this entire situation. But it's turning into the same thing as the other Katrina threads. I would suggest you take any comments that you would have there.

Hurricane Katrina Response Thread

or

Hurricane Katrina's Aftermath