White Man: Why Are You Giving Away Your Country?

  • Thread starter HKS racer
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I've seen what happens when someone from NW london doesn't understand his own sources.
Perhaps you can explain this for me, to prevent future misunderstandings

Let's look at what the most upvoted comments on the Guardians piece on Hungary's migrant crisis are:



  • How dare they require Migrants to respect their culture. Do they not understand the benefits of multiculturalism? 38 votes

  • I am shocked that the Hungarians do not see the benefit of having afghans in their midst. We in UK welcome anybody with open arms. The benefits are wide open for anyone to see...checkout Bradford, Birmingham, east London ... 39 votes
  • "Do they not understand the benefits of multiculturalism?" Yes, the poor misguided fools. I pity them their ignorance.

    I sincerely hope we live to see the day when every little Hungarian boy and girl gets to experience living next door to someone who doesn't speak their language and who follows different customs and traditions. Only then can we hope to build a better, more tolerant and peaceful society. 8 votes
Throw in a liberal sprinkling of outrageous racism:

  • Perhaps if all these Muslims migrants who want to come to Europe so badly told their wives to take off the towels on their heads and try and fit in with the native people, they wouldn't be so unwelcome. 33 votes
Read that last one again. For those that don't know, even though it should be blindingly obvious referring to "towel heads" is an extremely insulting slur for Arabs. Then remember you are reading the Guardian, and maybe you get the idea that the wheels are falling off the great multiculturalism experiment. As you are seeing the Left has crippled Britain much like the last time they were in power (when we had to get them out with a vote of no confidence) so the time is now for a clear direction on how to manage this developing crisis (you may have seen the news where the Eurotunnel was closed amid frantic scenes at Calais).
 
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Throw in a liberal sprinkling of outrageous racism:

  • Perhaps if all these Muslims migrants who want to come to Europe so badly told their wives to take off the towels on their heads and try and fit in with the native people, they wouldn't be so unwelcome. 33 votes
Please remember to get the terms right... An attack on a religion's followers and their ways is not racism.
 
Throw in a liberal sprinkling of outrageous racism:

  • Perhaps if all these Muslims migrants who want to come to Europe so badly told their wives to take off the towels on their heads and try and fit in with the native people, they wouldn't be so unwelcome. 33 votes
Read that last one again. For those that don't know, even though it should be blindingly obvious referring to "towel heads" is an extremely insulting slur for Arabs. Then remember you are reading the Guardian, and maybe you get the idea that the wheels are falling off the great multiculturalism experiment.

Yes, it is impossible for a racist comment to appear on the Guardian website comment section... And then for the poster to inform like-minded individuals that they've made a controversial comment, and then for those like minded individuals to upvote that particular comment. :rolleyes:


For the record, i guess you could say i hold fairly liberal views and i believe multiculturalism works, i'm also mixed race (white /black ) and iv'e never read the Guardian....

Oh and my mother (who sadly passed away the beginning of this year) suffered from sickle cell anemia. Not that has anything to do with it, but i openly admit i'm not the sharpest tool in the box. However, i can clearly see the majority of what you've posted so far in this thread, is (at best) some kind of verbal dysentery.
 
I'm sorry for your loss. My sister suffers from anaemia (not sickle cell) and the posts weren't intended to be a slur, more an example of how scientists are restricted in what they can research.

If we confront subjects that are taboo maybe we can address inequality, without having to resort to positive discriminatory measures. For example, I knew I was never going to be as quick as others at mathematics due to genetic limitations. Therefore I spent more time with this subject to become more comfortable with it in order to pass the necessary entry requirements (I still remember the quadratic formula). If I went in the mistaken belief that I was as adept at maths as the East/South Asian students in the class it would have been a surefire way to failure. It's all about personal responsibility, and thinking critically instead of relying on PC mantras. You may not be the "sharpest tool in the box", but genetically you are better than me in other things.
 
Yes, it is impossible for a racist comment to appear on the Guardian website comment section... And then for the poster to inform like-minded individuals that they've made a controversial comment, and then for those like minded individuals to upvote that particular comment. :rolleyes:


For the record, i guess you could say i hold fairly liberal views and i believe multiculturalism works, i'm also mixed race (white /black ) and iv'e never read the Guardian....

How is it multiculturalism, if people are fined and attacked for displaying national flags in England and Sweden? It's forced foreign-culturalism and it only works with brute force, media indoctrination and LOTS of welfare money, to keep the various minorities calm.
 
I'm sorry for your loss. My sister suffers from anaemia (not sickle cell) and the posts weren't intended to be a slur, more an example of how scientists are restricted in what they can research.
Thank you for your condolence. And i'm sorry to hear about your sisters condition/illness.

It's all about personal responsibility, and thinking critically instead of relying on PC mantras.
Why can't "thinking critically" and "PC mantras" coexist? Surely it's not impossible to practice and exercise both ways of thinking?

You may not be the "sharpest tool in the box", but genetically you are better than me in other things.
And likewise (not that i'm suggesting you're a dull tool to any extent). Your medical background is obviously one of your many core strengths, as is your tenacity for what you believe is right (though that tenacity can also be a weakness), but sometimes (to me) it seems that you get lost within your own arguments, and when others disagree with you, you seem to dig your heels in deeper, rather than thinking to yourself "hang on.. maybe there's a possibility i could be wrong". I obviously don't know you personally, but that is the general feel i get from your posts.

Of course, i could be wrong about you and your views/opinions, but i for one will keep an open mind to whats posted, however iv'e yet to be convinced by any of your arguments so far.
 
How is it multiculturalism, if people are fined and attacked for displaying national flags in England and Sweden? It's forced foreign-culturalism and it only works with brute force, media indoctrination and LOTS of welfare money, to keep the various minorities calm.
I'm sorry, i don't follow.. How is what multiculturalism?

[Edit]

Sorry for the double post.
 
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How is it multiculturalism, if people are fined and attacked for displaying national flags in England and Sweden?

Are they?

It's forced foreign-culturalism and it only works with brute force, media indoctrination and LOTS of welfare money, to keep the various minorities calm.

Even if many of those minorities are actually British? What about Welsh speakers, Cornish speakers, Manx speakers and other white minorities, or is it all down to skin colour?
 
Why can't "thinking critically" and "PC mantras" coexist? Surely it's not impossible to practice and exercise both ways of thinking?
It can, but one will always dominate. In the past few decades it has been PC, reaching this nadir and continuing with news stories like gamergate, Tim Hunt etc etc.

Nessy
And likewise (not that i'm suggesting you're a dull tool to any extent). Your medical background is obviously one of your many core strengths, as is your tenacity for what you believe is right (though that tenacity can also be a weakness), but sometimes (to me) it seems that you get lost within your own arguments, and when others disagree with you, you seem to dig your heels in deeper, rather than thinking to yourself "hang on.. maybe there's a possibility i could be wrong". I obviously don't know you personally, but that is the general feel i get from your posts
You know me better than most since that's exactly the same conclusion my employers and tutors have arrived at. And as I work for the NHS I was threatened with the sack and professionalism hearings for daring to challenge the status quo (my University on the other hand supported me, and advised me to wait not until I was a doctor but until I was Medical Director to make the changes I want to).

One thing I do take issue with is getting lost within arguments. I'm hoping I've come across relatively clearly and backed everything up with evidence. I also do think I'm wrong on some views, but there are others where opposing views seem highly illogical and they are nothing more than beliefs (see the danger from the differences between British doctors and international medical graduates with the system we have at present). You'll find I actually agree that multiculturalism can work, but what an overly PC environment has produced in Britain today is multi mono-cultures, that is many many cultures side by side.

Let's be honest when we look at the state of relations now:

Hindus as a rule will not allow their daughters to marry a black man.
Chinese/Japanese will similarly disapprove.
Muslims will not marry others of a different faith.

Of course there are exceptions, but think about the reason why ethnicity forms never have mixed Asian/Black as a checkbox, but always Mixed White/Black (I used to tick "Mixed Other" before I stopped. I'm tempted to pull a Dolezal and tick random ones on each form).

Nessy
Of course, i could be wrong about you and your views/opinions, but i for one will keep an open mind to whats posted, however iv'e yet to be convinced by any of your arguments so far.
Fair enough, and I appreciate someone debating without resorting to ad hominems.

The problem I find being mixed race is I feel an obligation to somehow break through the racial barriers tearing up certain Western countries since we are immune to the normal criticisms used to silence debate. I can recognise that the achievements of Britain, like it or not were largely due to the white population and we shouldn't as a society be so quick to erase white culture under the banner of "multiculturalism".
 
You said multiculturalism works. I said it doesn't, because it has to be forced on people. Naturally it would never occur.
It works just fine. But, yes, it must unfortunately be forced upon those who have not yet received the correct moral epiphany. Even so, you may rest assured America and Britain perennially stand at the summit of morality and rectitude.
 
It would be interesting to see statistics about how many people would willingly share country resources (which are always limited) with people of different culture or race.
 
It works just fine. But, yes, it must unfortunately be forced upon those who have not yet received the correct moral epiphany. Even so, you may rest assured America and Britain perennially stand at the summit of morality and rectitude.

15 years of Middle East wars and lies says otherwise... Those administrations should all be on trial for war crimes.
 
For some reason I always have an image of Lester Burnham when I read Dotini posts, which aids interpretation no end.
Never heard of this Lester Burnham. Looks like it might be about the flick American Beauty, entertainment you pay for. Mine comes free!
 
"Again, one example is not representative of the whole demographic."
- prisonermonkeys, Immigration post #148
I've not claimed it does. However one example is enough to disprove an absolute statement of fact.

"Naturally it would never occur."

It only needs to have occurred once to disprove that statement, and I'm fairly sure that my own multicultural marriage and family is not unique in that regard.
 
I think @InSight is talking about multiculturalism in a broader sense, for example a town, county or country rather than isolated examples.

Put two masses of different cultures together and it's unlikely you'll get "multiculturalism". You'll get some intermarriage, but this isn't indicative of multiculturalism. Some slave owners chose their slaves as wives - but that doesn't mean multiculturalism was proven.

Granted, mixed marriage is much more common now (mixed race is the fastest growing ethnicity in UK) but I'm not sure it proves multiculturalism is succeeding.
 
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I think @InSight is talking about multiculturalism in a broader sense, for example a town, county or country rather than isolated examples.

Put two masses of different cultures together and it's unlikely you'll get "multiculturalism". You'll get some intermarriage, but this isn't indicative of multiculturalism. Some slave owners chose their slaves as wives - but that doesn't mean multiculturalism was proven.

Granted, mixed marriage is much more common now (mixed race is the fastest growing ethnicity in UK) but I'm not sure it proves multiculturalism is succeeding.
Of course I forgot that every time my family attempts to join society we get shunned for being unnatural!

As for an analogy based on slave owners who chose slaves as wives, yes that's wonderfully analogous and not even remotely related to forced marriage at all.

What I do find interesting in a claim that multiculturalism can't/doesn't work and/or is not natural and/or must be forced, is that most seem to forget that culture doesn't end at race or religion, but covers the entire socio-economic scale as well as being regional. Given that if multiculturalism doesn't work I'm at a loss to understand how society manages to function at all.

My wife's cultural background is a good example of this, being Anglo-Indian,a culture that is by origin multicultural, and far beyond just English and Indian. Its a culture that also sees very few AI to AI relationships (in my wife's very, very large extended family I can only think of one), and as such continues to absorb and integrate new cultures and influences.

Now that's not to say that its either easy or straightforward, and the more common ground two cultures share the easier it is for them to accept and absorb from each other, and the reverse is of course true. It also requires a degree of acceptance, understanding, compromise and work on all sides. It is however demonstrably untrue to say that different cultures can't live together and work to accept elements of each other, does it work every time? No of course not, but at the other end of the scale neither has it failed at every turn.

The single biggest cultural 'jar' that my wife and I cause in Western European society not that we are in a mixed race/religious background/culture relationship, with 'brown' babies, but rather that we have been married for over twenty years. A point that also highlights that cultures do not (and never have) remain static, and even without outside influences will change anyway.

Western European culture only a few decades ago was very different from how it is today even without looking at influences directly from 'outside' cultures. People married for life as divorce was a cultural taboo to a very large degree, everyone wore hats and everyday wear was formal (unless you were working class scum in origin - just like me), single mothers got the kids taken away and shipped off to nice church run care homes (and how nice they were). All of these things have changed, culture is fluid and always has been, with and without the influences of outside cultures (which are also fluid).

I would argue that given the fluid nature of culture that it is also changing and evolving driven by both internal and external forces) and is never fixed and naturally and permanently in a state of being many cultures at once. It is in essence, and in my view, multicultural at its core.

Those that try and hold onto some perceived historic cultural value will almost away be holding onto an ideal that either didn't actually exist or has long since passed, with the Daily Mail's seeming longing for a '50s style British culture being a prime example.

I'm quite sure that many will disagree with the above, quite frankly I don't give a hoot about that, I see the evidence for cultural change and shift in almost every part of everyday life and the birth of the internet has only driven that faster. Is it always easy? No. Does it always work? No. Does that mean it never works and is unnatural? No.
 
Cocky, outgoing men like me have been having relationships with the women of other races since the time of the Neanderthal and the Watchers, if not before. We are attracted to the forbidden fruit. I personally have had relations with white, black, Asian ladies and Jewish princesses.
 
Of course I forgot that every time my family attempts to join society we get shunned for being unnatural!
I don't think that was @InSight's point (although it's up to him to clear it up). Rather a society being multicultural is unnatural.

Scaff
As for an analogy based on slave owners who chose slaves as wives, yes that's wonderfully analogous and not even remotely related to forced marriage at all.
Noooo, read the link. The guy was killed by whites for the marriage. We aren't talking about the forced sex cases but the extremely rare love stories.

Scaff
Given that if multiculturalism doesn't work I'm at a loss to understand how society manages to function at all.
Have you looked at British society recently? Or seen any of the news stories coming from America?

Racial intermarriage successes =/= multiculturalism success.

If we go by acceptance of mixed race marriages/offspring then everywhere I, or my family has ever been both nationally and internationally is a multicultural success story (apart from my ex's house).
 
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So....you agree then?

Agree to what? I am not debating that brain size correlates to intelligence.* I am simply pointing out that right now, it doesn't mean much when you're trying to compare different populations.

I've already noted that environmental and societal factors seem to create an even bigger spread between populations in terms of measured intelligence, or even within the same population over time. The fact that Singaporeans score higher on IQ tests than ethnically identical Malaysians points to this. That Chinese score high points to this (there are some interesting correlations between learning complex languages and brain development). The narrowing of the IQ gap between African American and Caucasian American students points to this.

Perhaps, in the future, when societal factors are minimized, then you can fully explore the correlation, but right now, ignoring those factors produces questionable results. The original studies on ethnic IQs was very, very questionable in the sense that socio-economic and educational factors were never fully controlled for. (refer again to the narrowing of the gap)

Which is why I presented more modern ones that examine co-factors and other causes... that... shock... horror... present the very un-PC notion that black skin really does seems to affect academic and testing performance.

That is, the skin itself. Not the ethnicity. And they even went so far as to test it in relation to other factors to see why.

Interestingly, a number of other studies also show that lighter skin tones amongst those of the African American persuasion correlate positively to higher academic achievement, societal status and even criminal issues. Even within the African American minority, there is discrimination, whether conscious or unconscious. (should not be surprising... physical attractiveness has the same effect as light-colored skin)

What does this mean? Simply that we are not yet at the point where you can honestly compare people from different ethnicities and different backgrounds, come up with a set of performance outcomes, and say: "this variance is completely genetic, without a doubt."

Which brings us back to the point: You were saying people were too scared to approach this topic, because of "Political Correctness"... which isn't true. A whole lot of researchers are working on the topic, dissecting the differences. But their research is a lot more nuanced and comprehensive than older studies which simply stopped at that point and said: "This must be about race."**

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I never answered your question as to whether I think it is correct to tell a doctor you're accepting them even if you've had problems with other doctors from their country in the past... I'd say... maybe. Maybe if all the doctors came from the same school.

It is disappointing to me that such generalizations over the nationality of doctors can be made, given the spread between the best and worst of schools in each country. (And this has affected us in the past due to poor regulation of fly-by-night schools, something that the government here clamped down hard on back in the 90's). At most, I'd agree it's fair to stop accepting doctors from certain problematic medical schools if it's found that they don't measure up in general... but in the end, it all comes down to proper testing and vetting of applicants on the employer's end.

Something that was apparently not done with the fake "nurse" who poisoned patients a while back over there... when a few simple phone calls and verification checks... which are done by US employers hiring our graduates... would have turned up the discrepancies.

Again... pointing to a systemic problem in the NHS, itself. It's not quite "uncontrolled immigration" (tell that to any Asian nurse applying for a job in the UK... it's tough!), it's simply that the controls just aren't doing the proper job.

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I was going to talk about mixed marriages, being the third-generation descendant of two or three very mixed-up ones, but Scaff answered that quite nicely.


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*Interestingly, the one study I found that did actual brain weight measurements and which plotted all respondents on an easily available scatterplot had the confounding factor of terminal cancer and the effects of pain and pain medication... and the lowest scoring respondents weren't actually the ones with the smallest brains (they were all around average in size) though the general trend showed an increase of ability with larger brains.

**Ties in nicely with the "white trash" issue... keep telling people they're stupid and worthless, and they'll start believing it themselves, and act accordingly...
 
I don't think that was @InSight's point (although it's up to him to clear it up). Rather a society being multicultural is unnatural.
It's his to both clear up and provide evidence for.


Noooo, read the link. The guy was killed by whites for the marriage. We aren't talking about the forced sex cases but the extremely rare love stories.
And so...........

Does a single case from the deep south, in the heart of the use of slaves somehow indicate that multicultural society can never exist?

Is that what we are supposed to take from that?


Have you looked at British society recently? Or seen any of the news stories coming from America?
I live in the UK and travel its entire length and breadth with my job, I meet people from a wide range of cultural backgrounds across the UK on a daily basis. I disagree with your claim that multiculturalism doesn't work, but that was the crux of my post.

I have family in the US (in the south - Alabama to be specific) and friends who live right the way across the US (and one in Canada who works in the US predominantly), some of whom are members/staff here at GTP. I speak to them about these issues, I see the world they live and work in and I disagree with your claim that multiculturalism doesn't work, but that was the crux of my post.

Society is functioning just fine in the vast majority of the UK, US and for that matter Europe, we are a long way from anarchy and a breakdown of society, arguably all three are currently more peaceful and safe than they have ever been.


Racial intermarriage successes =/= multiculturalism success.
Didn't claim it did, but rather than it was and is much wider than that. Which was the entire point and focus of my post you just (semi) quoted?

Odd that you missed that, given that I specifically stated as much in the part of my quote you removed!

Stop quote mining, you will not be asked again.
 
Simply that we are not yet at the point where you can honestly compare people from different ethnicities and different backgrounds, come up with a set of performance outcomes, and say: "this variance is completely genetic, without a doubt."
Yeah we are, we just choose not to. We compare cohorts based on other things and with only limited control for societal/environmental issues. Personally I don't know whether we should proceed down extensive testing, but that's another debate.

I live in the UK and travel its entire length and breadth with my job, I meet people from a wide range of cultural backgrounds across the UK on a daily basis. I disagree with your claim that multiculturalism doesn't work, but that was the crux of my post.

I have family in the US (in the south - Alabama to be specific) and friends who live right the way across the US (and one in Canada who works in the US predominantly), some of whom are members/staff here at GTP. I speak to them about these issues, I see the world they live and work in and I disagree with your claim that multiculturalism doesn't work, but that was the crux of my post.
Yeah I don't see it. I see other cultures and mixed marriage are largely tolerated (although recently this has been severly tested), but the emergence of a fractured society that's divided along cultural lines. Maybe that's just London...

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America?

Meh, I dunno. I know a lot of Americans who don't share your view, and I've noticed a definite hardening of attitudes recently. Here are some articles:

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,340694,00.html (From 2002)
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/06/segregation-2015/396167/
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/troubled-waters-in-mckinney-texas/395150/
 
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Yeah we are, we just choose not to. We compare cohorts based on other things and with only limited control for societal/environmental issues. Personally I don't know whether we should proceed down extensive testing, but that's another debate.

Based on what evidence?

Also, again, I provided an example of a study based on said extensive testing, checking and controlling for societal and environmental issues. And their effects cannot be ignored.

It would also be interesting to compare the changes in average cranial sizes over the decades, along with changes in average height, weight, etcetera... and how this correlates with increasing or decreasing population IQ... sadly... I can find no such literature. Though most seem to agree that African populations have gained some dozen or so IQ points over the past few decades thanks to improving conditions.

In the end, we will still probably find variances (though again, things like culture... and language... have an effect on brain development... the extremely complex Chinese language has a positive correlation with IQ!), but it remains to be seen where everyone lies once the dust has settled completely and people stop shouting at each other over perceived and actual biases in studies.
 

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