White Man: Why Are You Giving Away Your Country?

  • Thread starter HKS racer
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Transport back and you remove the need for segregation.

Weirdly all your posts are proving my point. The ruling classes didn't like sharing "their" country. You are all telling me, with straight faces, that should the people they couldn't stand living in "their" country, who they couldn't tolerate drinking from the same water fountains until the 1960s decide they wanted to return to their ancestral home, the ruling classes would say "nope, we plan on sharing America and living with you begrudgingly instead".

You all are saying this....?
No we are not saying that at all.

You pose the utterly inaccurate position that the second the Civil War ended that the former slaves had equal rights and treatment as the rest of the population and that these were rigorously enforced by law.

Its not that the ruling classes didn't like sharing "their" country, they didn't like sharing "their" rights, and as soon as slavery was abolished they went about ensuring that state laws were passed and policed that ensured that remained the case.

BTW - Your document? That discussed the 'issue' of free blacks prior to the Civil war, not after it, as such it discusses both a different set of drivers and also doesn't exclude the issue that former slave owners would not wish to loose cheap labour that could be controlled via a system of effective apartheid. Liberia wasn't a free state until 1862 (after the period discussed in your source) and as such you are wondering why people might not want to leave a country in which they had been declared free (in the Northern states at least) and return to a continent from which they could once again be enslaved or subject to colonial rule?



Think about what you all are saying, then answer:

Why would the ruling classes refuse a request for the former slaves to return to Africa?
Because they were more than able to put in place laws and police those laws in a manner than allowed them to continue much the same, with a dirt cheap labour force that continued to make them very, very rich and didn't have either equal rights or protection under the law.


If you are still confused, may I suggest you read up on what white nationalists in America want today.
Former slave owners are not the same as white nationalists, and you seem to be forgetting the reason why these people bought slaves in the first place.

After all if they were, as you claim (incorrectly) white nationalists hell bent on keeping the place white, then they did a piss poor job by buying and keeping a huge amount of non-white slaves.
 
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No we are not saying that at all.

You pose the utterly inaccurate position that the second the Civil War ended that the former slaves had equal rights and treatment as the rest of the population and that these were rigorously enforced by law.

Its not that the ruling classes didn't like sharing "their" country, they didn't like sharing "their" rights, and as soon as slavery was abolished they went about ensuring that state laws were passed and policed that ensured that remained the case.
Exactly! So why go to this effort when they can just deport everyone and be gone with the problem?!

Scaff
Because they were more than able to put in place laws and police those laws in a manner than allowed them to continue much the same, with a dirt cheap labour force that continued to make them very, very rich and didn't have either equal rights or protection under the law.
Nah that was just a work-around. The south hated them and the north couldn't convince them to go "back" to Africa. You really believe the slave owners wanted to keep them around as unofficial slaves? Are we forgetting the roots of the American Colonization Society??

The American Colonization Society was established in 1816 by Robert Finley as an attempt to satisfy two groups in America. Ironically, these groups were on opposite ends of the spectrum involving slavery in the early 1800's. One group consisted of philanthropists, clergy and abolitionist who wanted to free African slaves and their descendants and provide them with the opportunity to return to Africa. The other group was the slave owners who feared free people of color and wanted to expel them from America.
Both the these groups felt that free blacks would be unable to assimilate into the white society of this country. John Randolph, one famous slave owner called free blacks "promoters of mischief."



http://personal.denison.edu/~waite/liberia/history/acs.htm

For God's sake, it was attacked as a "slave holder scheme" by abolitionists!

Scaff
Former slave owners are not the same as white nationalists, and you seem to be forgetting the reason why these people bought slaves in the first place.

After all if they were, as you claim (incorrectly) white nationalists hell bent on keeping the place white, then they did a piss poor job by buying and keeping a huge amount of non-white slaves.
You answered the question. They didn't see them as people, rather slaves. They didn't want or anticipate emancipation, and so it would have been a white state built on cheap, black labour.
 
Exactly! So why go to this effort when they can just deport everyone and be gone with the problem?!
Because rich people like staying rich.

Nah that was just a work-around. The south hated them and the north couldn't convince them to go "back" to Africa. You really believe the slave owners wanted to keep them around as unofficial slaves? Are we forgetting the roots of the American Colonization Society??

The American Colonization Society was established in 1816 by Robert Finley as an attempt to satisfy two groups in America. Ironically, these groups were on opposite ends of the spectrum involving slavery in the early 1800's. One group consisted of philanthropists, clergy and abolitionist who wanted to free African slaves and their descendants and provide them with the opportunity to return to Africa. The other group was the slave owners who feared free people of color and wanted to expel them from America.
Both the these groups felt that free blacks would be unable to assimilate into the white society of this country. John Randolph, one famous slave owner called free blacks "promoters of mischief."



http://personal.denison.edu/~waite/liberia/history/acs.htm

For God's sake, it was attacked as a "slave holder scheme" by abolitionists!
You seem to keep forgetting that this is all prior to the Civil war, the slave owners didn't want all blacks sent back to Africa, they wanted free blacks to be sent back to Africa so they would not incite slaves to demand freedom (notice how your source repeatedly refers to 'free blacks' at a time when slavery was still in existence in the south).

From your first source:

"Another, smaller, element was a proslavery group who saw removal as an answer to the problems associated with "dangerous" free blacks"

Notice the pro-slavery element is described as 'smaller' and that they saw it as an answer to the issue of ""dangerous" free blacks"; they had no desire or intention of wanting to give up slavery or repatriate slaves, only those who were free and could potentially undermine the wealth that slavery had brought them.

You seem to be forgetting the rather large elephant in the room with regard to your argument, if slave owners wanted the slaves out of America and back to Africa why didn't they just ship them back and be done with it? After all at the point in time that your documents come from they had no rights and the slave owners could simply have gotten rid of them.



You answered the question. They didn't see them as people, rather slaves. They didn't want or anticipate emancipation, and so it would have been a white state built on cheap, black labour.
The Southern states were white states built on cheap, black labour, and that didn't change following the civil war.
 
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Explain! Is it your contention that it is in the ex-slave owners interest to keep the blacks whom they despise and who they recognised as "trouble makers" rather than deport them.

Because rich people like staying rich.
And so they plan on using unofficial slaves who were now, despite treatment to the contrary all freed men. And considering the fact that when they had slaves they wanted the freed ones sent back?

Realllllly?

Scaff
You seem to keep forgetting that this is all prior to the Civil war, the slave owners didn't want all blacks sent back to Africa, they wanted free blacks to be sent back to Africa so they would not incite slaves to demand freedom (notice how your source repeatedly refers to 'free blacks' at a time when slavery was still in existence in the south).
Soooo these people held the opinion blacks should return to Africa before the civil war, still hold that opinion today, but thought they should stay immediately after the civil war????

Scaff
From your first source:

"Another, smaller, element was a proslavery group who saw removal as an answer to the problems associated with "dangerous" free blacks"

Notice the pro-slavery element is described as 'smaller' and that they saw it as an answer to the issue of ""dangerous" free blacks"; they had no desire or intention of wanting to give up slavery or repatriate slaves, only those who were free and could potentially undermine the wealth that slavery had brought them.
Smaller than the philanthropist group, which doesn't really say anything. They didn't want to repatriate slaves because they were at that stage only that - slaves. Why get rid of cheap labour that has no rights?

Scaff
You seem to be forgetting the rather large elephant in the room with regard to your argument, if slave owners wanted the slaves out of America and back to Africa why didn't they just ship them back and be done with it? After all at the point in time that your documents come from they had no rights and the slave owners could simply have gotten rid of them.
Not really an elephant in the room as it should be obvious. They didn't want the slaves back to Africa. They wanted freed blacks sent back.

Scaff
The Southern states were white states built on cheap, black labour, and that didn't change following the civil war.
Of course it didn't. The point is the south wanted them gone after slavery, and when this wasn't possible abused their rights in a quasi-caste system.

The opposing logic in this thread, that the south preferred this rather than ship them back is illogical to me. People abuse other people regardless of colour, and as you so eloquently said "rich people like staying rich". They would have found poor whites or any another disenfranchised group to abuse to fill in the absence of the slaves they lost, much like how rich British whites used the poor white working class to fill in menial jobs - a position now taken up by the recent mass influx of immigrants from the Eastern block.

Your logic is more suited to the continuing abuse of migrants in the Mid East, where there is no hope of the prospect of equal rights. Consider the fact that America went to war over this issue. The south saw the writing on the wall. Blacks were here to stay, and they were going to become even more powerful as they became more equal.
 
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Who pays for the fares?

We're not talking bundling off a few dozen troublemakers on the next flight to Africa.

We're talking millions of slaves, who have to go the long way, by boat, and who have to be fed along the way.

Shipping isn't free. Not by a long shot. And you'd be shipping people with no "home" to return to in Africa.


-

Also, why would rich southern plantation owners not use black labor? Ex-slaves were still cheaper to hire than anyone else.
 
No we aren't talking about "shipping them all in one go" via UPS. We talking about setting up a program for returning. Liberia would be the start, and other colonies would be set up. However Liberia wasn't a success, and the blacks as a majority preferred an easier (relatively speaking) life in America. If you want to get really controversial this is the reason I believe my ancestors didn't really make much of Africa, and why we still don't. We don't understand struggle, and throw our hands up at the first sign of trouble as a collective group.

It's a curious trait with people. We love to complain about discrimination, but complain about the alternatives!

You need to study some actual-real-history before taking on this argument, I think. There's plenty of fact to learn. It seems that you've completely failed to misunderstand everything about the subject.
Erm, let's see your evidence. You also left out the bit in that quote about people going to war over this
 
The south saw the writing on the wall. Blacks were here to stay, and they were going to become even more powerful as they became more equal.

You need to study some actual-real-history before taking on this argument, I think. There's plenty of fact to learn. It seems that you've completely failed to understand anything about the subject.

No we aren't talking about "shipping them all in one go" via UPS. We talking about setting up a program for returning. Liberia would be the start, and other colonies would be set up. However Liberia wasn't a success, and the blacks as a majority preferred an easier (relatively speaking) life in America.

It's a curious trait with people. We love to complain about discrimination, but complain about the alternatives!

Liberia wasn't a success because for many Americans it was neither near the lands of their ancestors or the kind of place they wanted to go to. The 19,000 slaves removed to there were mostly murdered by the indigenous inhabitants. What was not to prefer about America - they were Americans after all?

More Murdoch links? The Times might have been a good paper once but it's rapidly become like The Daily Mail but with a better crossword. Nice subject change though.
 
IBTimes isn't The Times, as such isn't Murdoch Media 👍

No it's not really a subject change. It's an expansion since it states a politcally incorrect observation on the current topic.
 
IBTimes isn't The Times, as such isn't Murdoch Media 👍

How odd, this is the link that IBTimes bastardised. Do you read your own sources? Strangely they go on to say

Office for Policing
Overall, knife crime is at its lowest level in seven years and knife-crime-related deaths have fallen by around a third since 2008. However, we are not complacent.

That's unusual, a Murdoch paper whipping up a sensational yet completely self-contradictory story. You should go for a job there.
 
The numbers Mason, what do they mean?

If knife crime goes down year on year with increased targetting of youngsters, then rise in the year following a reduction in stop and search:

The numbers
There were reportedly more than 1,600 cases of youths being stabbed in the capital in the 12 months to May 2015, a 23% increase on the previous year.

The Police can still spin it as saying they were still down compared to the height of 2008. This doesn't negate the concern that without stop and search the numbers are likely to rise to 2008 levels again.

To use an analogy, think like the statistics are an x^2 graph (they aren't, but whatever):

images


2008 statistics are at the far left, and 2015 are at the value where x=1. The police can still claim they are down from 2008, even though they have risen in a year. The statement still applies:

Spin
Overall, knife crime is at its lowest level in seven years and knife-crime-related deaths have fallen by around a third since 2008
 
That is a very, very disturbing article. It's trying to say we don't have a knife crime problem by making a percentage of serious knife crime out of total crime. Frankly it's disgusting and the most up voted comment explains it better than I ever could. The reply to this comment is worth posting here just so the people of GTP can be under no illusion that knife crime is a menace in the London area


@ captaintim - you raise some very valid points, I put that down to the author being relatively new to the field and I'm sure comments like yours are what will be useful as their future learning curve.


I believe it is an attempt to try and portray the data in a less exaggerated manner, usually this kind of data is accompanied by the headline "Shocking new figures".


The figures represented above are only for the most serious knife injuries sustained during assaults, however, the real figure is much higher, see Met Police FOI:


http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/100202/response/271409/attach/3/ROBERTS Data.xls.pdf


It shows there were a total of 4,133 knife injuries in the 2010-11 financial year. The 1,300 figure is those that were "serious" - whatever that means. Not sure how the police divide them up into serious and non-serious, because an inch in the wrong direction could prove fatal.


The figure for 2010 according to the Met, for serious knife wounds, was 1,246 according to the data download. However, if you look at the London Ambulance Service data from the same period here:


http://data.london.gov.uk/datastore/package/ambulance-call-outs-assaults-knife-injuries


They have recorded 1,897.


And still, there is no data publicly available from victims of knife crimes who present at A&E, therefore we really don't know how many people were victims of knife crime?


I suspect a more accurate figure lies in the triangulation of all three data sets (Met, A&E, LAS), because certainly not everyone who is stabs reports the incident to the police, and hospitals have no duty to inform the police when someone presents at A&E with knife wounds (correct me if I'm wrong, there has been attempts to change this).


There is an interesting map in this HNS report that shows the extent, point data, of Major Trauma victims which includes knife and gun injuries:


http://www.london.nhs.uk/webfiles/Publishing NHS Data/LTO Annual report 2010 to 2011.pdf


It is promising that London homicide is down to it's lowest figure since 1969. So far 2012 is looking to break that record. According to the NHS report linked above, London hospitals prevented potentially 58 deaths from knife wounds.


(I love the authors optimism for the 2012 figures. I wonder what they would make of 2014-2015?)

The Guardian/BBC - political correctness machines at their finest.
 
That is a very, very disturbing article...

With no data in it, unfortunately.

Fascinating that you've dropped the thread topic (and your argument that freed Americans elected to be in their position) for a rant about knife crime in London. Quite the about-face.
 
OK but....

Liberia wasn't a success because for many Americans it was neither near the lands of their ancestors or the kind of place they wanted to go to. The 19,000 slaves removed to there were mostly murdered by the indigenous inhabitants. What was not to prefer about America - they were Americans after all?

Where do we go from here. It was a harsh life for blacks "returning" to Africa, so they chose America. All of this comes full circle to my original statement:

I
OK then let's talk about mistakes of ancestors.

Why did so many African American former slaves choose to stay in America and not go to Liberia, or other African countries after being freed?
Why did my ancestors choose to come to a land inextricably linked with the slave trade in the 60s?
 
And so they plan on using unofficial slaves who were now, despite treatment to the contrary all freed men. And considering the fact that when they had slaves they wanted the freed ones sent back?

Realllllly?


Soooo these people held the opinion blacks should return to Africa before the civil war, still hold that opinion today, but thought they should stay immediately after the civil war????
Given the immense change in circumstances yes. A small number of slave owners supporting the return of a small number of freed slaves prior to the Civil War was one thing. Returning the entire 2 million plus work force immediately after the war is quite another, a war that cost the lives of many of the working class white Southerners.


Smaller than the philanthropist group, which doesn't really say anything. They didn't want to repatriate slaves because they were at that stage only that - slaves. Why get rid of cheap labour that has no rights?
Why get rid of a cheap labor force that you can put in a position that they have no rights?

Are you honestly saying that in the immediate aftermath of the Civil war legaly protected rights were given and enforced throughout the entire US from day 1?


Not really an elephant in the room as it should be obvious. They didn't want the slaves back to Africa. They wanted freed blacks sent back.
When it was advantageous to do so, the moment it was advantageous to change laws to remain as close to teh status quo (pre war) as possible that was done.


Of course it didn't. The point is the south wanted them gone after slavery,
You act as if this is established and agreed fact, its not.


.....and when this wasn't possible abused their rights in a quasi-caste system.


The opposing logic in this thread, that the south preferred this rather than ship them back is illogical to me. People abuse other people regardless of colour, and as you so eloquently said "rich people like staying rich". They would have found poor whites or any another disenfranchised group to abuse to fill in the absence of the slaves they lost, much like how rich British whites used the poor white working class to fill in menial jobs - a position now taken up by the recent mass influx of immigrants from the Eastern block.
You mean all the poor white who had just all survived a long and bloody civil war, oh wait more Americans died in the Civil war than in the two world war combined.

The poor white work pool was massively depleted (by being dead) which leaves the choice of either change a few laws and maintain what is effectively the status quo or ship all of the now free slaves out of the country at vast expense, hire an entire new work force and find some way of training them up. All the while your economy (already battered from a long and bloody civil war) goes down the crapper.

Turning slaves into a de-facto slave class makes total and utter sense, particularly given that the North, also battered and bruised from the civil war was in little position to do a great deal about it as long as people were 'free' on paper.


Your logic is more suited to the continuing abuse of migrants in the Mid East, where there is no hope of the prospect of equal rights. Consider the fact that America went to war over this issue. The south saw the writing on the wall. Blacks were here to stay, and they were going to become even more powerful as they became more equal.
It was one of the issues that American went to war over and given that it took until the middle of the 20th Century to get close to equal rights and the 21st Century to get a black guy in the White House I would say your overstating the powerful part to quite a degree.
 
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Explain! Is it your contention that it is in the ex-slave owners interest to keep the blacks whom they despise and who they recognised as "trouble makers" rather than deport them.
Oh, come on. You're actually serious about this? You're suggesting that a group of farmers are going to willingly pay enormous sums of money to make labour more expensive for them while also reducing their social power? All this while recovering from the most destructive war the country had ever seen? I have a hard time believing that you're this thick.
 
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I read today that all physical DVD and CD recordings owned by private individuals have reverted to being the property of the original artist.

We can either carry on keeping them as before or we can send them back to the original artist. The second option will cost about 50 times per item what it cost us to buy them.*

Would you go for that, @KSaiyu?

*All completely made up, obviously.
 
Given the immense change in circumstances yes. A small number of slave owners supporting the return of a small number of freed slaves prior to the Civil War was one thing. Returning the entire 2 million plus work force immediately after the war is quite another, a war that cost the lives of many of the working class white Southerners.
This is where it's going wrong. I have no idea where you are getting this from.

The only "support" I can find for your thinking is maybe this (which doesn't indicate small anywhere):

Notable supporters of transporting freed blacks to Liberia included Henry Clay, Francis Scott Key, Bushrod Washington, and the architect of the U.S. Capitol, William Thornton—all slave owners. These "moderates" thought slavery was unsustainable and should eventually end but did not consider integrating slaves into society a viable option. So, the ACS encouraged slaveholders to offer freedom on the condition that those accepting it would move to Liberia at the society's expense. A number of slave owners did just that.

When the first settlers were relocated to Liberia in 1822, the plan drew immediate criticism on several fronts. Many leaders in the black community publicly attacked it, asking why free blacks should have to emigrate from the country where they, their parents, and even their grandparents were born. Meanwhile, slave owners in the South vigorously denounced the plan as an assault on their slave economy.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...7/was_liberia_founded_by_freed_us_slaves.html

But check the date: 1822, before the Nat Turner rebellion:

But the scheme had some fans. Slave states like Maryland and Virginia were already home to a significant number of free blacks, and whites there—still reeling from Nat Turner's 1831 rebellion, which emancipated slaves had a hand in—formed local colonization societies. Thus encouraged, Maryland legislators passed a law in 1832 that required any slave freed after that date to leave the state and specifically offered passage to a part of Liberia administered by the Maryland State Colonization Society. However, enforcement provisions lacked teeth, and many Marylanders forgot their antipathy to free blacks when they needed extra hands at harvest time. There is no evidence that any freed African-American was forcibly sent to Liberia from Maryland or anywhere else.

And:
In the 1830s, the movement became increasingly dominated by slave owners who wanted Liberia to absorb the free blacks of the South. Slaves freed from slave ships were sent here instead of their country of origin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-to-Africa_movement#Liberia

You may say - ahhh but surely that second quote proves they were willing to forget discrimination come hard times when work needed to be done. Well yes, but it still is nowhere near proof that they'd be willing to forget about it in perpetuity, especially once all blacks were free and given "equal" rights.

It's laughable how a man dead for over 150 years could see what political correctness and liberals seem intent on saying is untrue:

Henry Clay, a congressman from Kentucky who was critical of the negative impact slavery had on the southern economy, saw the movement of blacks as being preferable to emancipation in America, believing that "unconquerable prejudice resulting from their color, they never could amalgamate with the free whites of this country. It was desirable, therefore, as it respected them, and the residue of the population of the country, to drain them off".[16] Clay argued that because blacks could never be fully integrated into U.S. society due to "unconquerable prejudice" by white Americans, it would be better for them to emigrate to Africa
Oh, come on. You're actually serious about this? You're suggesting that a group of farmers are going to willingly pay enormous sums of money to make labour more expensive for them while also reducing their social power? All this while recovering from the most destructive war the country had ever seen? I have a hard time believing that you're this thick.
You won't be banned for this post, but I suggest you research your arguments more carefully and come back with a cool head.

- Why would the farmers have to fork out.
- What are you talking about by "reducing their social power".

You guys are also acting as if the "southern farmers" had the keys to the castle but are conveniently forgetting the north. The fact is if blacks wanted to go back, they would have been helped by the north and south in moderation. Black's didn't, opposed colonisation and chose to remain so let's stop the revisionism in trying to blame the white guys yet again. The argument that it would have crippled the southern farms is weak since we aren't talking about a mass migration that sends all blacks back in a matter of weeks. If a plan was introduced to repatriate blacks gradually, whilst sustaining southern productivity as replacements were found are you telling me the former slave owners would still not jump on board?

Let's re-evaluate:

- Blacks want to go to their ancestral home in Africa
- The north agrees that they have a right to this
- The south fear freed blacks and so also agree

- Southern former slave owners object because they need the help and so stop the whole process.

Really guys?????
Let's start treating people equally and calling out the right people when the situation warrants it. For Gods sake non-whites aren't babies and don't require this nannying. My American cousins didn't return simply because they didn't want to leave America for Africa and not because they were held back by whites.

@TenEightyOne Analogy doesn't make sense since CDs aren't human.
 
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This is where it's going wrong. I have no idea where you are getting this from.

The only "support" I can find for your thinking is maybe this (which doesn't indicate small anywhere):

Notable supporters of transporting freed blacks to Liberia included Henry Clay, Francis Scott Key, Bushrod Washington, and the architect of the U.S. Capitol, William Thornton—all slave owners. These "moderates" thought slavery was unsustainable and should eventually end but did not consider integrating slaves into society a viable option. So, the ACS encouraged slaveholders to offer freedom on the condition that those accepting it would move to Liberia at the society's expense. A number of slave owners did just that.

When the first settlers were relocated to Liberia in 1822, the plan drew immediate criticism on several fronts. Many leaders in the black community publicly attacked it, asking why free blacks should have to emigrate from the country where they, their parents, and even their grandparents were born. Meanwhile, slave owners in the South vigorously denounced the plan as an assault on their slave economy.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...7/was_liberia_founded_by_freed_us_slaves.html

But check the date: 1822, before the Nat Turner rebellion:

But the scheme had some fans. Slave states like Maryland and Virginia were already home to a significant number of free blacks, and whites there—still reeling from Nat Turner's 1831 rebellion, which emancipated slaves had a hand in—formed local colonization societies. Thus encouraged, Maryland legislators passed a law in 1832 that required any slave freed after that date to leave the state and specifically offered passage to a part of Liberia administered by the Maryland State Colonization Society. However, enforcement provisions lacked teeth, and many Marylanders forgot their antipathy to free blacks when they needed extra hands at harvest time. There is no evidence that any freed African-American was forcibly sent to Liberia from Maryland or anywhere else.

And:
In the 1830s, the movement became increasingly dominated by slave owners who wanted Liberia to absorb the free blacks of the South. Slaves freed from slave ships were sent here instead of their country of origin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-to-Africa_movement#Liberia

You may say - ahhh but surely that second quote proves they were willing to forget discrimination come hard times when work needed to be done. Well yes, but it still is nowhere near proof that they'd be willing to forget about it in perpetuity, especially once all blacks were free and given "equal" rights.

It's laughable how a man dead for over 150 years could see what political correctness and liberals seem intent on saying is untrue:

Henry Clay, a congressman from Kentucky who was critical of the negative impact slavery had on the southern economy, saw the movement of blacks as being preferable to emancipation in America, believing that "unconquerable prejudice resulting from their color, they never could amalgamate with the free whites of this country. It was desirable, therefore, as it respected them, and the residue of the population of the country, to drain them off".[16] Clay argued that because blacks could never be fully integrated into U.S. society due to "unconquerable prejudice" by white Americans, it would be better for them to emigrate to Africa

Every single part of which assumes that the situation in the south was no different post Civil war to pre-civil war.




You won't be banned for this post, but I suggest you research your arguments more carefully and come back with a cool head.

- Why would the farmers have to fork out.
- What are you talking about by "reducing their social power".
I've already exaplined w


You guys are also acting as if the "southern farmers" had the keys to the castle but are conveniently forgetting the north. The fact is if blacks wanted to go back, they would have been helped by the north and south in moderation. Black's didn't, opposed colonisation and chose to remain so let's stop the revisionism in trying to blame the white guys yet again. The argument that it would have crippled the southern farms is weak since we aren't talking about a mass migration that sends all blacks back in a matter of weeks. If a plan was introduced to repatriate blacks gradually, whilst sustaining southern productivity as replacements were found are you telling me the former slave owners would still not jump on board?

I've not forgotten about the North at all, in fact I mentioned them a number of times, as such I didn't conveniently forget anything. You seem to be either un-ware or ignoring just how much of an impact the civil war had to the US population (the white side of it mainly), with the death rate hitting 25% and those injured normally unable to work again.


Let's re-evaluate:

- Blacks want to go to their ancestral home in Africa
- The north agrees that they have a right to this
- The south fear freed blacks and so also agree

Blacks want to go to their ancestral home in Africa
Which part of it? Liberia is a tiny part of Africa, and certainly not the ancestral home for a very large number of slaves. The majority of whom had never been to Africa, didn't speak the language and unsurprisingly didn't really want to go (on that point I agree with you).

The north agrees that they have a right to this
It may well do, but certainly doesn't have the funds following a long and bloody Civil war that has nearly destroyed the nation.

The south fear freed blacks and so also agree

Not as clear and while they may just as strong an argument exists for them needing the labour, particularity given that the Cotton and Tobacco producing regions suffers the most casualties in the Civil War of the Southern states.


- Southern former slave owners object because they need the help and so stop the whole process.

Really guys?????
Yes really.

Why look for an alternative poor and easily controlled workforce when you already have one that can be managed by a few state laws?



Let's start treating people equally and calling out the right people when the situation warrants it. For Gods sake non-whites aren't babies and don't require this nannying.


My American cousins didn't return simply because they didn't want to leave America for Africa and not because they were held back by whites.
Or the possibility exists that both factors could well be a part of this, they didn't want to leave (and given that they we are talking well past first generation here that is not a huge surprise) and they economy of the southern states needed a very cheap controllable workforce due to the alternate (poor white farmers) being mainly dead or maimed beyond being able to work.
 
Blacks want to go to their ancestral home in Africa
Which part of it? Liberia is a tiny part of Africa, and certainly not the ancestral home for a very large number of slaves. The majority of whom had never been to Africa, didn't speak the language and unsurprisingly didn't really want to go (on that point I agree with you).

The north agrees that they have a right to this
It may well do, but certainly doesn't have the funds following a long and bloody Civil war that has nearly destroyed the nation.

The south fear freed blacks and so also agree

Not as clear and while they may just as strong an argument exists for them needing the labour, particularity given that the Cotton and Tobacco producing regions suffers the most casualties in the Civil War of the Southern states.
That's what I'm saying. My question was, if the blacks chose to return who or what would be stopping them. Your argument hinges on it being the white farmers and the economics of post civil war America.

Let's put it very simply so there's no confusion:

What is the main reason African-Americans did not return to their ancestral home?
 
This is like asking why poor white people in America don't return to their ancestral home, somewhere in mainland Europe, even though their life sucks in the States.

Honestly, what answer are you looking for? Take your pick:

1. These people were poor, and couldn't afford passage.

2. They were already "home".

3. There's no reason for poor, English-speaking Americans to drive themselves deeper into debt to emigrate to countries where they'll be even poorer than they are in America.

All of which have been said, at one point or another, already. And yet you're asking for something more compelling than that?

-

I don't get where you get the idea that packing up and crossing an ocean is easy or cheap, or even free. It's also strange the romantic fixation you seem to have with returning to Africa, where there are fewer economic opportunities for people looking to better their lot in life.

If you're dirt poor, you go where the money is. You don't go where it isn't. There's nothing noble in tilling parched earth till your palms bleed while starving your children to death, when you can migrate somewhere with better pay, and sweep floors or wash dishes until you've scrounged up enough to send your kids to school.
 
That's what I'm saying. My question was, if the blacks chose to return who or what would be stopping them. Your argument hinges on it being the white farmers and the economics of post civil war America.
No it doesn't, my argument is that it wasn't a single simple driver.


Let's put it very simply so there's no confusion:

What is the main reason African-Americans did not return to their ancestral home?

No one main reason exists.

This is like asking why poor white people in America don't return to their ancestral home, somewhere in mainland Europe, even though their life sucks in the States.
And then send them all to Albania, regardless of which part of Europe they came from two or three generations ago!
 
No one main reason exists.
This ideology is starting to sound like a religion. I don't get why it's so hard to accept facts.

Yes, there is a main reason.

But the major reason the movement did not enjoy more
success was quite simple. It blithely ignored one cardinal
point: the vast majority of those who were meant to
colonize did not wish to leave. Most free blacks simply did
not want to go "home" to a
place from which they were
generations removed. America, not Africa, was their home
and they had little desire migrate to a strange and
forbidding land not their own
.
 
This ideology is starting to sound like a religion. I don't get why it's so hard to accept facts.

Yes, there is a main reason.

But the major reason the movement did not enjoy more
success was quite simple. It blithely ignored one cardinal
point: the vast majority of those who were meant to
colonize did not wish to leave. Most free blacks simply did
not want to go "home" to a
place from which they were
generations removed. America, not Africa, was their home
and they had little desire migrate to a strange and
forbidding land not their own
.

You are aware of the difference between opinion and fact?


Its also not an ideology nor a religion and you would do well to moderate your tone and attitude, simply because others may not agree with you or your source opinion. Please keep in mind that just about everyone else here has been open to their being more than a single driver to this.
 
This ideology is starting to sound like a religion. I don't get why it's so hard to accept facts.

It's all swell hurling accusations of ideology when the paper you cited does nothing to contradict anything anyone here says:

The reasons for its failure were many.

Ergo, there were a number of reasons.

One was financial. There were seldom enough dollars to pay for the costs of transportation, land grants, and subsistence expenses

We have repeatedly asked where you thought the money for this would come from. This was a movement funded by many donors, yet they had trouble moving a few thousand emigrants.

And:


Most free blacks simply did
not want to go "home" to a
place from which they were
generations removed. America, not Africa, was their home
and they had little desire migrate to a strange and
forbidding land not their own.

Congratulations. You agree with us, yet refuse to accept that the answer could be multi-faceted, instead choosing to produce this answer as a profound epiphany that has been overlooked over the past several pages by absolutely nobody else.
 
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