I for one want the old penalties back

[OrokuSaki]

Just raced the Daily A. First race was in 5th when one of the A drivers who set the pole was in 6th. Guy pushes me off the track twice with no penalties. Then in the following race the same thing happens. A guy gets punted off the track from the front. I started 11th, climbed all the way to 5th and on the last lap he tries to push me off the course. I recover and take the position but he is able to cut me off on the next turn. As we round heading into the next straight away he takes a bad line and I slip underneath him in the turn. He then proceeds to slam me from one side over and over again trying to push me off the track. As I respond by steering left trying to stay on track I'm assuming the game believes I'm driving into him? I occur 5 seconds of penalties from his bad driving.

He takes the position but we both have 5 seconds of penalties. He finishes 10th and I 11th.

This is just two races and I could see it at the start of last night too. People are already abusing the lighter penalty system knowing what they can and can't get away with and it creates bad racers and a bad racing experience. The only thing about this title that's different from others is Sport mode is supposed to be the main draw. And if I can't get clean races and be able to rank up? Again, I have to ask myself is playing this game worth the frustration? I want to have a good, fun time. However, at the end of races I'm just mad that I spent what little time I have to play the game with no enjoyment.

/rant

 

[PirovacBoy]

Sad to hear that, but it’s just something that mostly can‘t be avoided. It’s the honorless behaviour that made me stop playing Sport Mode a long time ago. It just makes no sense playing under these random circumstances where you never know if your opponents stick to some basic driving rules. It’s just luck if you get matched against people with a decent attitude or not. Everyone must be aware about that when playing in Sport Mode, anything can happen, I personally don’t want to rely on the draw of luck and wasting my precious time anymore with pitiful people.
Dr or Sr is meaningless, my advice is accept it or leave it. Try to race in organized Lobbies with honorable People driving under strict rules where everybody holds on to these rules. That’s the biggest thrill as you can focus completely on your race and don’t have to bother if anyone might ruin your race on purpose.
Mistakes will happen there too, no doubt, but overall the experience is way better in Lobby Racing.

 

[Pedinhuh]

Yeah, you can have the old(and barely useful) penalties for yourself, I and the majority of this community are fine with the new penalties post 1.14.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

It's sad to have such races - always. However, you actually raced, didn't you. A week ago you would have parked your car somewhere on track to shave off your time penalties .

 

[Alpha Cipher]

It's sad to have such races - always. However, you actually raced, didn't you. A week ago you would have parked your car somewhere on track to shave off your time penalties .

Well, in PD's semi-defense*, there's ways to shave off your penalty smartly. First, get off the racing line, and two, be decisive at where you'll serve your penalties. I treat my penalties like braking points- I have predefined "slow down" zones where I know if I slow down I can minimize the time lost while serving a determined time of penalties.

Spoiler: Case-in-point

I know that at Monza if I have a penalty, I coast at the starting lights halfway through the main straight (the one further down than where we start). If I do that, I can at most serve 5 seconds worth of penalties. Slight adjustments will be necessary at most for lower penalties. And because of this, I adjust my brake point to 100m, and voila only 1.5 seconds slower than usual.

I like the old penalty system in general as well, but honestly with the cases OP mentioned, the old penalty system's only going to make matters worse (10-60 second penalty if you don't serve it both and prolly drop to last).

Yeah, you can have the old(and barely useful) penalties for yourself, I and the majority of this community are fine with the new penalties post 1.14.

Well, for me the old penalties were useful. I'm a minority and I understand that if the majority likes the post-patch penalties better, it's staying. But I don't like opinions being imposed upon

*Well, no I'm not really defending PD by blatantly saying the old penalties are better, since it's personal preference, but rather I stated ways to use the system

 

[OrokuSaki]

I too understand that the majority liked the post patch penalties better. However, I had some of the cleanest races while the circumstances were the harshest. Now I'm racing and if someone doesn't like the line I take or the fact I beat them to the turn they automatically go into rage mode and punt me off the track or attempt to run me off the track. Whereas before they had to take their licks and try to catch back up. The more I play the game the more I find how far people are willing to push the limits of what is a penalty.

I'm by no means "good" at this game. I rarely finish on the podium but, I can constantly move up from where I started to a higher finish. But, when I'm being slammed around for 7th place out of 12 and end up finishing 10th because of being knocked around by the other guy? That takes what little enjoyment I can have for this game out of it and makes it more prone to be trade fodder or a shelf dweller than a played title.

I'm not trying to be super competitive to the point where I think I should finish at the top every race but, I do want to have clean fun races while being able to maintain my SR which is more important to me than the DR. I shouldn't have to relegate myself to only playing the AI to have a good time. Racing other human beings is the whole point to buying an online racing title.

 

[mastretta_mx]

Yes please, Race B on lambo at monza, got hit back in the chicane and I went a little of The track, got 1.3 secs penalty, in the next curve other driver go off The track get back without caution causing a collision so I got 3 more seconds but as I lost control I spent my penalty time there, end of The race and I go from B/B to C/D ( even tough I got 3 positions gained and a theorical DR increase)

 

[djidane57]

just stop playing monza , this track is a joke

 

[ceres2000]

Well I just wait till the race is over and a guy like the one you described gets reported. Either way not every race is like that so there's that.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

Just one more comment on how I see things, not the "truth", just a feel, so don't kill me guys for this :

With how penalty and rating systems currently work, a clean racer will always have a disadvantage against those who "know how to game it"
and are willing to do so. There's not much more benefit in clean racing than the fact, you can claim to have raced in an honorful way according to the rules, sportsmanship and your own ethic. However to me, that's worth it, anyway ...
Also, you can not avoid dirty drivers since the rating systems are gameable, as we all know - there's always a chance to meet some of them.
I'm all for racing without contact, but if I come against a scumbag I want the option ( at least ) to hold against it and not just give in. I wouldn't want to just back off trying to avoid a 10 sec penalty that I, as a clean racer, would have to serve of course ... just to get slammed then by a backmarker followed by another penalty.
Milder penalties allow for more real options in race, that's why I prefer them. But that's just me.

 

[Crazy Taylor]

I know that at Monza if I have a penalty, I coast at the starting lights halfway through the main straight (the one further down than where we start). If I do that, I can at most serve 5 seconds worth of penalties. Slight adjustments will be necessary at most for lower penalties. And because of this, I adjust my brake point to 100m, and voila only 1.5 seconds slower than usual.

My favourite place (for penalties) is between 2nd chicane and 1st lesmo as theres not much of a straight.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

My favourite place (for penalties) is between 2nd chicane and 1st lesmo as theres not much of a straight.

That's a rare spot to scrub off penalties. And it does work to your advantage now that I think about it. I just didn't bother there because I thought that straight wouldn't scrub penalties

 

[Outspacer]

Yeah, you can have the old(and barely useful) penalties for yourself, I and the majority of this community are fine with the new penalties post 1.14.

I'm a minority and I understand that if the majority likes the post-patch penalties better, it's staying.

I too understand that the majority liked the post patch penalties better.

'Majority' is simply not true. Even many of those in favour of stricter rules admit that there are distinct problems with the post patch situation. It's probably not even true to say that the majority favour the kind of racing it produced, since there's a widespread complaint that it made people over-cautious. (It doesn't matter what anyone's personal opinion is on how clean racing should be when we're trying to gauge 'majority' objectively).

From what I've found when racing, it isn't staying super clean and cautious anyway. People are essentially reverting to the older style of driving, and expecting most people in a race to get a penalty somewhere... which of course is then the case. In 14 races the other night, there were only one or two where fewer than half the field had a penalty dot, and some where pretty much only the lead few cars escaped unscathed. (edit: this was at A/S)

And now we see that people practice and learn how to take penalties most efficiently... well, that's a good game and all, but it isn't racing.

 

[Silver_Wolf]

I don't get to do much online racing at the moment (perils of juggling multiple games and real life work) but when I did race on
Monday it seemed evening time was when the drama queens and rammers were most noticeable but I only incurred one
penalty during my races, daytime was fine with some good all round racing.

I think it is a difficult call that will never quite be got right but the biggest problem right now is when it doesn't let you serve
the penalty as it's inconsistent, sometimes if you slow off the gas it's enough to serve the penalty but other times you have
to ram the brakes completely which in a race is not safe as then other players have to react to you.

Reverting back to the extreme penalties is all well and good and will discourage the noobs from doing such thing but it's
a difficult balance to get right.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

'Majority' is simply not true. Even many of those in favour of stricter rules admit that there are distinct problems with the post patch situation. It's probably not even true to say that the majority favour the kind of racing it produced, since there's a widespread complaint that it made people over-cautious. (It doesn't matter what anyone's personal opinion is on how clean racing should be when we're trying to gauge 'majority' objectively).

From what I've found when racing, it isn't staying super clean and cautious anyway. People are essentially reverting to the older style of driving, and expecting most people in a race to get a penalty somewhere... which of course is then the case. In 14 races the other night, there were only one or two where fewer than half the field had a penalty dot, and some where pretty much only the lead few cars escaped unscathed.

And now we see that people practice and learn how to take penalties most efficiently... well, that's a good game and all, but it isn't racing.

Maybe we aren't on the same page? From how I see your post, it seems like my message came to you as that the majority of players like the harsh penalty system.
To clarify, I think that the majority of people don't like the harsh 1.13 penalty system. I'm describing that I'm the minority who likes the 1.13 penalty system back. I don't disagree with you at all that so many people complained about the very harsh penalties 1.13 introduced. Like you said, so many complained about over cautious driving. Hence why I'm the minority that likes these strict penalties

Sorry for the confusion

 

[polizei]

I drive very defensively in sport mode and usually avoid penalties from bumps. When ahead I take the inside line, when behind I'll pressure instead of forcing the pass. I'd get more wins if I drove more aggressively but that's not my style.

 

[Outspacer]

Maybe we aren't on the same page? From how I see your post, it seems like my message came to you as that the majority of players like the harsh penalty system.
To clarify, I think that the majority of people don't like the harsh 1.13 penalty system. I'm describing that I'm the minority who likes the 1.13 penalty system back. I don't disagree with you at all that so many people complained about the very harsh penalties 1.13 introduced. Like you said, so many complained about over cautious driving. Hence why I'm the minority that likes these strict penalties

Sorry for the confusion

Well, maybe a little I just get riled up when people start speaking for the majority, usually to support their own argument... although you weren't doing that.

To be fair, 1.14 penalties are still a lot stricter than pre 1.13, and the system still has a lot of the issues that people complained about with 1.13. The races I mentioned were with 1.14 system. TBH, I think 1.14 will make nobody happy, but we'll have to wait and see. I've seen quite a few comments saying (in effect) it's a relief that it's less harsh, although in my straw poll of racing people seem to be getting about the same number of penalties with 1.14 as with 1.13. It may be slightly better at determining fault, but it still needs to be a lot better to avoid penalties being handed out to both drivers in most cases. So I think in the end as many will complain about 1.14 as did with 1.13... if not more, since you guys aren't happy either.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Well, maybe a little I just get riled up when people start speaking for the majority, usually to support their own argument... although you weren't doing that.

To be fair, 1.14 penalties are still a lot stricter than pre 1.13, and the system still has a lot of the issues that people complained about with 1.13. The races I mentioned were with 1.14 system. TBH, I think 1.14 will make nobody happy, but we'll have to wait and see. I've seen quite a few comments saying (in effect) it's a relief that it's less harsh, although in my straw poll of racing people seem to be getting about the same number of penalties with 1.14 as with 1.13. It may be slightly better at determining fault, but it still needs to be a lot better to avoid penalties being handed out to both drivers in most cases. So I think in the end as many will complain about 1.14 as did with 1.13... if not more, since you guys aren't happy either.

I'm pretty much thinking the same thing with 1.14 actually. It's definitely looser in a lot of ways, but it's still much tighter than pre-1.13 as you said, so those people may not like the new system either. Personally I don't like the new system, because it gives muppets a bit more breathing room to, well, be muppets. But if I put myself in the shoes of people who like the pre-1.13 system, I can see how it's still overly strict at scrubbing penalties and how it gives out so many SR downs for even the slightest of touches, albeit now there's no more penalties to add insult to injury. Although I come to the same hypothesis as you that even less people will be happy with it, some people will like it, and might create a new niche of players like how 1.13 did

 

[Outspacer]

I'm pretty much thinking the same thing with 1.14 actually. It's definitely looser in a lot of ways, but it's still much tighter than pre-1.13 as you said, so those people may not like the new system either. Personally I don't like the new system, because it gives muppets a bit more breathing room to, well, be muppets. But if I put myself in the shoes of people who like the pre-1.13 system, I can see how it's still overly strict at scrubbing penalties and how it gives out so many SR downs for even the slightest of touches, albeit now there's no more penalties to add insult to injury. Although I come to the same hypothesis as you that even less people will be happy with it, some people will like it, and might create a new niche of players like how 1.13 did

It still seems to hand out a lot of penalties though. It might take a slightly harder tap, but it's still only a minor tap in a lot of cases, and just as irritating when it isn't your fault. Drivers seem to be adjusting to risking penalties regardless of what level they are set at - I mean generally, not just the muppets - somewhat accepting them as an unavoidable part of racing.

As for SR, well: SR S is still overcrowded.

 

[Robben]

I would rather SR down than the time penalties though, as you can get 2 or 3 time penalties which kill your race but still end with SR blue... as @Outspacer says, this is just meaning more people get into SR/S

 

[Alpha Cipher]

It still seems to hand out a lot of penalties though. It might take a slightly harder tap, but it's still only a minor tap in a lot of cases, and just as irritating when it isn't your fault. Drivers seem to be adjusting to risking penalties regardless of what level they are set at - I mean generally, not just the muppets - somewhat accepting them as an unavoidable part of racing.

As for SR, well: SR S is still overcrowded.

Well, that just adds to the disappointment for the pre-1.13 faction... Although, I just like to note that getting penalties for slight touches hasn't occured to me yet. Luckily no one's abused that yet and nudged me off track, but it's getting me anxious. So, a bit of a relief for me I guess?
As for the adjusting to risking penalties part, I'd say that it's applicable to some drivers, but not all. I've raced with more than a few people who respect my space and my moves. Not a lot, but definitely not a few either. I guess it's just a case of some people trying to figure out how much they can game the system.

And yes, SR is overcrowded. Even the harshness of 1.13 didn't fix that

 

[GTWelsh]

Keep the harsh pens but don't give time pens for minor impact. Job done. The dirty will filter their way down the SR rankings and the clean will wobble initially (contending with the dirty lot) and rise to the top when the dirty lot sink too far.

Or just don't run sport mode because I have no faith in other people to not be idiots, regardless of pen system.

 

[Robben]

Keep the harsh pens but don't give time pens for minor impact. Job done. The dirty will filter their way down the SR rankings and the clean will wobble initially (contending with the dirty lot) and rise to the top when the dirty lot sink too far.

Or just don't run sport mode because I have no faith in other people to not be idiots, regardless of pen system.

Agreed, time penalties are very frustrating... fair enough give an orange SR for minor contact (or even no SR for that sector as happens (or used to, not sure now) if you leave the track without cutting a corner for example)

 

[Satomiblood]

just stop playing monza , this track is a joke

Monza is a DR killer for sure, but the track itself is great. It's just that most people don't know how to drive it, notably the first chicane.

If anything, PD needs to implement a system that doesn't coddle dirty drivers. For starters, when people try to cut through that first Monza chicane, they shouldn't be re-spawned right after it. Instead, they should be re-spawned before it - near the end of the straight. Make them take it correctly. Also, if someone wrecks as a result of an accident, there should be a longer delay before they get re-spawned on the track (or no spawn at all). I see too many people getting back into races with ease after wrecking. Make them earn their spot again.

 

[Robben]

Monza is a DR killer for sure, but the track itself is great. It's just that most people don't know how to drive it, notably the first chicane.

If anything, PD needs to implement a system that doesn't coddle dirty drivers. For starters, when people try to cut through that first Monza chicane, they shouldn't be re-spawned right after it. Instead, they should be re-spawned before it - near the end of the straight. Make them take it correctly. Also, if someone wrecks as a result of an accident, there should be a longer delay before they get re-spawned on the track (or no spawn at all). I see too many people getting back into races with ease after wrecking. Make them earn their spot again.

Or don't respawn but give a huge time penalty, like 15 or 20 seconds. Monza is the only circuit that does this weird respawning on chicanes...

 

[Outspacer]

I would rather SR down than the time penalties though, as you can get 2 or 3 time penalties which kill your race but still end with SR blue... as @Outspacer says, this is just meaning more people get into SR/S

Those are also still giving -SR though, aren't they? The problem is that even if you're SR 99 the system will try and give you +10 or more for a clean race, so there's leeway to get way more -SR hits than should be allowed at SR 99. Which IMO, should be none - no clean race bonus and you'd drop down from SR 99.

Well, that just adds to the disappointment for the pre-1.13 faction... Although, I just like to note that getting penalties for slight touches hasn't occured to me yet. Luckily no one's abused that yet and nudged me off track, but it's getting me anxious. So, a bit of a relief for me I guess?
As for the adjusting to risking penalties part, I'd say that it's applicable to some drivers, but not all. I've raced with more than a few people who respect my space and my moves. Not a lot, but definitely not a few either. I guess it's just a case of some people trying to figure out how much they can game the system.

And yes, SR is overcrowded. Even the harshness of 1.13 didn't fix that

I don't mean that people generally lose all respect, just that they will take slightly more risk... cautious rather than over-cautious, perhaps would be one (poor) way to describe it. Unfortunately, that seems to end up with about the same number of penalties dished out as with 1.13.

With each version I've generally found people reasonably clean TBH, just a few bad apples and over-aggressive overtakers that really should be put into a lower SR category. But of course those types are a lot more noticable, and if barging past half a dozen racers they have a disproportionate effect.


My idea for SR is pretty simple: the maximum +SR someone can get from a race should be limited based on their SR. A simple formula would be to limit it to get them half-way towards SR 100 for a clean race, so just 1 point available for an SR 98! Even slight taps should be -1 SR, but some of the larger -SR cases possibly should be tamer - this isn't to make it more forgiving, just to balance out the reduced +SR available (also, it's crazy to see people lose over 100 SR in one race; that's not really measuring anything). So someone who habitually makes a dozen '-1' taps during a race will find themselves at an SR level where the +SR available balances that out - maybe still SR S, but low S. (The limit wouldn't change the calc much below SR S, but the system seemed to be working better there anyway).

 

[Robben]

Those are also still giving -SR though, aren't they?

Yes but they are mostly meaningless... as you say:

The problem is that even if you're SR 99 the system will try and give you +10 or more for a clean race, so there's leeway to get way more -SR hits than should be allowed at SR 99. Which IMO, should be none - no clean race bonus and you'd drop down from SR 99.

What should happen is an actual deduction in SR... if you have 2 or 3 contacts in a 10 minute race, you shouldn't finish with an overall positive (blue) result.

 

[Jump_Ace]

I'm about 80 completed races away from my platinum trophy, but the last two races I did at Monza, I've literally lost thousands of points. Sport Mode is dead to me, atm.


Jerome

 

[Robben]

I'm about 80 completed races away from my platinum trophy, but the last two races I did at Monza, I've literally lost thousands of points. Sport Mode is dead to me, atm.

Jerome

What did you expect on Monza?

 

[Outspacer]

Yes but they are mostly meaningless... as you say:



What should happen is an actual deduction in SR... if you have 2 or 3 contacts in a 10 minute race, you shouldn't finish with an overall positive (blue) result.

That's a bit harsh for the average SR C driver!

With my example formula (which could be tuned etc), at SR 90 you'd effectively get away with 5 little contacts and come out with neutral SR. But for those of us who want to race cleanly, we'd be at over SR 95, and hopefully the matchmaking finds enough people to separate us from the others. The formula could be harsher, but I wanted something easy for us to calc in our heads just to think about it.

The downside of more accurate SR calc is that matchmaking will give us more varied fields in DR, so I'm not sure just how much it should try and distinguish SR S.