A bit of a long one coming up. Prepare yourselves. This is not intended as a rant, just a few (okay, many) points for discussion. Hopefully it sparks some discussion, but deconstructing someone's post point by point isn't fun for either side, especially when it goes on for multiple posts. Rikki, I hope you don't see fit to separate my response into each individual issue if you respond, but feel free if you would like. I'm just after some discussion here. Anyway, on to the first point:
I know that, as a driving simulation, GT5 is outstanding, but that's all it has...
There is no damage model. Well a handful of cars can be wrecked visually but that's it.
I've heard Forza's damage model described as looking "like it had been waxed using a power sander rather than smashed up." I'll agree GT's no demolition derby but visually, Forza isn't great either.
Meh. It's aggressive, makes realistic mistakes sometimes, and can avoid some obstacles pretty well. Yes, there are some major flaws but once again Forza has some of the same problems. Stopping in the middle of the track results in disaster no matter which game you're playing.
The exponential XP system is massively flawed.
Maybe, but the only reason to worry about the system is to level up to unlock some of the really high end cars. Considering how easily some of these cars can be obtained anyway, I don't think it's that big a problem.
The in-game economy is nonsense.
It's in progress. With the new ability to share cars it's clear they're trying to improve the system. It would be nice if they somehow stopped duping and people lying about trades, but I have a feeling it will all come with time. Too bad you'll never experience those new features.[/quote]
The only genuine challenge is the Vettel challenge, which is just
astronomically difficult.[/quote]
This is my biggest gripe with your post. The game is as challenging as you make it. If you choose to use an X1 for the Sunday Cup, or even race tires when everyone else is on comforts, it's your loss. I personally enjoy racing a stock '73 Skyline in the Japanese Classic race, not a fully tuned Dome Zero. It can be quite a challenge and very interesting, if you so choose.
Licenses are meaningless.
If you want. The whole game is meaningless if you have no sense of accomplishment for winning a difficult race or beating your personal best laptime.
There are less than a quarter of the A-spec races in comparison to GT4 (127 instead of 522) and most of them are hilariously/embarrassingly short. In the German Touring Car 'Championship' for example (a couple of single, very brief races) we got ONE LAP of Nurburgring!
I agree. The races are definitely too short. In some cases it is difficult to get to the front of the pack in a given race, but incredibly easy to stay ahead once there. With a little finagling with car choice, it is possible to get a decently challenging race with an actual fight to the end, but I do wish there was more time for a decent battle. Still, from what I recall, many of Forza's races are equally short. (I may be wrong)
A vast majority [around three quarters] of the cars are ported from GT4, and look awful, with no cockpit view. PD are actually so embarrassed by the quality of these models that when you get close with a camera we are told to 'move further away' (so we can't get a close look at just how awful they are).
I'd rather be able to drive a completely hideously textured Plymout Superbird or Lotus Elan than not have the option at all. I honestly don't think they could have spent the time they took porting them on modeling new cars anyway. They really didn't change anything on the models, they just had to figure out a way to use the data in the new game. To think that took long enough to model even one Premium car seems foolish to me. Fortunately, PD at least got the basic appearance of each car right back in GT4. There are cars with wrong proportions in Forza 1 that still look the same in Forza 3.
B-spec is hopeless, yet twice as long.
You don't have to use it. Please note: Forza doesn't have B-Spec at all. Also, weren't you just saying you wish races were longer? I don't think a B-Spec race as short as the A-Spec events would have the time to be anywhere near interesting.
Not sure what you mean here. I haven't gotten that far. However, if you are implying there are too many endurances at Tsukuba, remember you are not obligated to do them. They are not the only option if you want an endurance race. The Nurburgring and Le Mans, featuring day/night cycles and weather, will certainly tide me over when I get there (though I do with the track looked more realistic when wet).
Countless Skylines and MX-5s.
I believe someone else did the math on this before. Essentially, even though there are a higher ratio of these Japanese cars to other cars than Forza, it still has more unique cars overall than Forza has. Not to mention, I really enjoy those slow classics like Fiat 500, Triumph Spitfire, Nissan Skyline '62, Corvette C1, etc. Where are these cars in Forza? Replaced by 27 Porsches?
I could go on and on but you all know the main gripes with a LOT of GT5 players.
So because a lot of people have a problem with it, it's more reason for you to have a problem with it? Or it is automatically more of a problem?
When I was buying my XBOX today at GAME they told me that GT5 is, far and away, the most returned game of the past 3 months. And it's always the same reasons people are returning it (see my list above).
Perhaps Forza 3 had a lot of returns when it came out. As I said, the game is what you make of it. GT5 has problems that do affect gameplay, but PD are slowly but surely fixing them. I still remember the complaints about the misaligned liveries in Forza 2, and how I got fed up with them back then. When they didn't get patched in Forza 2 I figured they would redo the system to make it work in Forza 3. Did they? Nope. You may think of similar things happening in the Gran Turismo series, things that hadn't been fixed for multiple games. Keep in mind though, that GT5 is the first GT game which is easily patchable, and that the connection between PD and the fans is growing stronger everyday with Twitter and other forms of communication, including this site. So far, I have already seen a ton of game-breaking problems and really annyoing grievances fixed since the game's arrival. Restart confirmation, anyone?
Forza 3 isn't as graphically astute as GT5, but it's an all-round much better gaming experience.
I can actually sort of see this, but it's not enough for me. Forza 3's career mode is definitely inspired and very interesting, and the customization is indeed very in depth, but the racing experience falls flat for me. I can't really find any other features of Forza which impress me enough to play it often, and I just can't get past the fact that every car in Forza behaves more or less the same, just with different performance figures. Maybe it's the fact that I don't have a wheel for Forza, just a controller, but I don't feel it's worth buying an inferior wheel for a game which interests me far less that GT5 does. Just my opinion. Anyway, on to specifics:
The AI are aggressive and believable.
Like I said, no more than GT's AI. They're just as likely to punt or spin you, and make just as many mistakes. They are however much "better" in terms of speed. GT's AI needs to learn how to brake for a corner, instead of braking "anywhere where a corner is nearby or in any way visible."
The in-game economy works.
Yes it does, quite well I'd say too. However, I could swear I remember a few times where glitches allowed certain people to gain advantages within the online system. Otherwise, it is a very good system and I hope PD can learn from it.
A much better selection of tracks.
in your opinion. Personally, I'm happy to be able to drive in the rain, or on dirt, if I so choose. The option to generate my own courses is nice too.
Full customisation of ALL cars.
It will certainly take a while for PD to achieve this, if it even is one of their goals, but this is definitely a high point of Forza. It just isn't enough to convince me to play it though.
Of which there are, yes, about half of GT5's roster. But they are ALL fully-modeled (including cockpit view).
Cockpit view is too distracting for me, though I can see how it could be a selling point for some. Like I said, though, Forza's models are detailed but not perfect. Everything PD has modeled has been entirely accurate, if not quite as detailed as Forza. GT5's cars that are modeled in full detail far surpass anything in Forza however, though I admit staggering detail is not always necessary. (Accuracy is, however, as far as I'm concerned)
More variety in the car list, including only a small number of Skylines and very few MX-5s.
Again, very few low end cars, and almost entirely supercars. At least PD have included pretty much the whole history of Skylines, rather than just a few choice Corvettes and Celicas.
Actually, an incredible customisation section; some of the work on Youtube is astonishing.
Agreed, but only inhibited by the misaligned layer glitches that have been present since at least Forza 2 (which I believe may in part be the fault of the outsourced models with incorrect symmetry data. It's just a hunch though)
Please. Discussed to death. If PD could get their hands on Porsche, it would have Porsche. Either Porsche didn't want to be featured in GT, or PD didn't want to spend a fortune convincing them. While you may feel Porsche is an absolutely necessary brand, I feel classic Japanese cars are absolute necessity. And Forza has a distinctly small number of these. It depends on your interests.
An online mode that makes sense.
GT5 is constantly improving. I had a ton of fun quite a few days in a row just opening my own room and setting it to low HP cars. I'm not sure how much Forza's online has changed since I last played, but the only thing I really wish I could transfer over is Cat and Mouse.
Yeah yeah. Hopefully coming. I don't really care, but I know a lot of people are really waiting for this.
You don't have to use it if you don't want. It's not a hindrance.
See above.
And I could go on there too.
Please do, If you want.
I'm not entirely sure what kind of point you're trying to make by posting this thread, but if it's to try and convince people GT5 isn't worth playing anymore, you're wasting your time. The games appeal to different markets with different racing interests, and the fact that you find Forza more in line with your ideal gaming/racing experience is no revelation. I sincerely hope you enjoy the game, and probably Forza 4 once it comes out, but I'll stick with GT5, thanks.
