Ideas to be a cleaner driver?

[Rykon Zero]

Oops - I knew the Beat was MR, but I accidentally wrote FR instead of RWD. And I think that rear-wheel drive cars still have an advantage at such low power because turning the wheel doesn't hinder acceleration like it does in a front-wheel drive car. FFs are easier to drive than some of the RWDs that like to slide (the Beat, for example), but when driven smoothly, the latter are definitely faster. And surely you don't actually think that, at least within GT4, a 290 HP front-wheel drive car is "better" than a 290 HP rear-wheel drive car? .

General rule. My 305 HP Integra is miles better than my 300 HP MR2, but it's all a matter of tuning.
As for the FWD, I can drive an FF faster than MR or FR when dealing with less than 100 HP, because it pulls out of the turn. Strangely enough, one of my Celicas can oversteer on corner exit.

 

[Alltidxx]

It is interesting to see that contact is now not so unfair anymore.

Well, I've just attempted this myself to exactly the conditions you mention and won it easily with no deliberate contact whatsoever. There was only one instance of contact of any sort, where the AI got a slightly better run than I did out of a corner and nudged my back end as we pulled away. Other than that the race was entirely clean, and I'd passed all five cars cleanly by three-quarters the way around lap three of four. The game reckoned the race was only worth 20 A-Spec points and I've won much more difficult races than that with no contact.

Do the points mean anything at all? Because the other night I won a "200 points A-spec" race and that was easy. Much easier than the lightweight cup. The lightweight cup was impossible, that's all I know. It seems the difficulty is changing for the same race if one quits and reloads.

You're the bloke calling him out, so can I suggest you post a vid of YOU doing this?

I suggest you read the thread. I'm not going to read it out for you.

 

[Alltidxx]

.

 

[homeforsummer]

It is interesting to see that contact is now not so unfair anymore.

- Contact - part of racing. Not unfair.
- Ramming people out the way to gain a position - not part of racing, and therefore unsportsmanlike and unfair.

It's never been any different on this forum.

Do the points mean anything at all? Because the other night I won a "200 points A-spec" race and that was easy. Much easier than the lightweight cup. The lightweight cup was impossible, that's all I know. It seems the difficulty is changing for the same race if one quits and reloads.

The points are supposed to be representative of the difficulty of a race, though they don't always do the best job of it. That said, they're generally fairly accurate.

The lightweight cup certainly isn't impossible in a standard car, and certainly not in the aforementioned Minica either. I tried the same race again, this time without the turbo upgrade, and still passed everyone cleanly by half way around lap three out of four. Any car above about 60bhp should easily be able to win this race providing the gearing is okay for the circuit. The race is also made a little more difficult if the Honda Beat starts at the front. The Minica weighs naff-all - 640kg - and makes about 64bhp without the turbo. This is more than enough. Funnily enough, I tried the race in the Daihatsu Copen too which weighs 160kg more and makes 1bhp less, and it was even quicker - probably had better grip and gearing.

A-Spec points of about 80 upwards on this track begin to get difficult. With the settings you mentioned (standard car apart from stage 1 turbo - I also did an oil change), I was offered 20 A-Spec points. After removing the turbo it went up to 49 points and I still won easily, indeed according to my saved replay, the non-stage1 turbo race was only 2 seconds slower overall than the race with the upgraded turbo.

Maybe I can help though - what aspect of the race are you struggling with in that car in particular? I might be able to give you hints on the best place to pass people.

 

[Alltidxx]

- Contact - part of racing. Not unfair.
- Ramming people out the way to gain a position - not part of racing, and therefore unsportsmanlike and unfair.

I agree.

It's never been any different on this forum.

Maybe not, but it seems when I bump it is totally ramming and unfair racing, when others bump it's contact and part of racing.

I doubt you drive inferior cars and win without bumping AI.

I disagree. Whenever I drive races against the AI I usually set the difficulty to at least +4 or +5 on the little slider (as for many cars it provides a fair level of competition from the AI), and it's still more than possible to beat them cleanly, even at narrow circuits like the 'Ring.

Alltidxx=bumper=rammer, Others=contacters="clean" racers. It sticks in my eyes a bit how things are interpreted and in whos favor.

Maybe I can help though - what aspect of the race are you struggling with in that car in particular? I might be able to give you hints on the best place to pass people.

Thanks for offering to help 👍, but I just upgraded the car and won eventually. My biggest issue now is that I wrecked my totally awsome 430 hp Subaru Impreza by installing a rollcage. Now it understeers like there is no tomorrow and no way to uninstall the goddamn cage

One question though, does the oilchange actually do anything?

 

[zed300]

From new it gives an extra few HP, and the oil change does renew the HP after use. If you let it go and the engine losses too much power before you give it the oil change, You can never regain the original power.
Best to change the oil while you can still see the colour in it.👍

General rule. My 305 HP Integra is miles better than my 300 HP MR2, but it's all a matter of tuning.

If PD got the actual cars physics right, which I think he did, the Honda probably just has a better chassis than the Toyota.
FF are generally easier to drive than MR's anyway.

Allidxx, Just go and buy another Subey yer?

 

[homeforsummer]

Alltidxx=bumper=rammer, Others=contacters="clean" racers. It sticks in my eyes a bit how things are interpreted and in whos favor.

It probably just depends how you word it. Words like "brush", "tap" and "nudge" look a lot better than "push", "barge" and "bump".

IMO it's perfectly possible to win a race without bumping into the AI, and indeed if you're very careful and prepared to sacrifice a little speed then you can win races without any contact whatsoever, but I'd still consider a race essentially clean if the only contact you had was a brief doorhandle-to-doorhandle moment if you were running out of road, or if the AI nudged you as you outbraked them.

 

[Pescarolo/C60]

Be more conservative with your driving, remember that in many caes you will have many laps still to overtake the people infront of you, just wait for the right moment

 

[homeforsummer]

Good advice. That Kei car event, for example, was four laps - more than enough considering you could pass all the cars in 2.5 laps if you were really trying.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

It is interesting to see that contact is now not so unfair anymore.

Light contact (door/panel rubbing) happens all the time in real-life, and is not considered "dirty driving", because nobody is being physically pushed out of their racing line or even off-track. At issue here are those drivers who wind up pushing or slamming other cars out of their way, in a desperate attempt for a win.

That being said, I'll be happy to drive the Minica with the power you suggested. And I'll post some pics, too. I've actually done the K Cups plenty of times with cars on N3 or S2 tires, and with power ranging from 60-ish to 80-ish horsepower (depends on vehicle layout & weight). I'm guessing the Minica will be able to drive around with such specs.

The K-Cup races are some of my favorites by the way, simply because there's a strong element of unpredictability. As those babies zip around and stuff, the resulting confusion makes my heart pound harder than the faster-paced Supercar events, and some other such more "advanced" races.

 

[Pitracer100]

Be more conservative with your driving, remember that in many caes you will have many laps still to overtake the people infront of you, just wait for the right moment

Clever advice. I only hate when you try to drive clean and theres like only two laps.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Clever advice. I only hate when you try to drive clean and theres like only two laps.

Why? In many cases, I actually dig the shorter races in comparison to longer ones. In some cases, the Ai doesn't get as much of a chance to stretch ahead of one another, which means a closer race between multiple cars overall. It creates a challenge. 👍

 

[RaidoGT]

Must say I agree with Pitracer100 here.... Many, many races in GT4 are only two laps, which is ever so slightly moronically short. Another big WTF-were-they-thinking feature by Polyphony "Partly Braindead" Digital.
IRL, no races are that brief, and in GT4 it often means you have to drive like a maniac to pass nearly every car in lap 1 to have a chance of finishing first. Even if it were only 3 laps instead of 2, things would've been much better. Seriously uncool.

(The only exception being the Ring, of course; that track is so long it makes 2 laps plenty enough. But for nearly all other tracks...)

Regards, R
(GPLRank: -40)

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Parnelli,

I drove the Mitsubishi Minica Dangen ZZ -89 in the Beginners Lightweight cup at the first track: "Motorland".

Go get yourself a turbo upgrade 1 because I did that. If you manage to win with no contact I sure would like to see it.

Sorry for taking so long.

Okay so...

'89 Mitsubishi Minica with a Stage 1 turbo. 65 track-rated horsepower.

Other than turning off the driving aids, there are no other mods. No oil change as well.

Normally, I would run about 77 horses for this particular race, driving a front-drive kei car weighing 1,410 pounds as a stock Minica does. The reason why I'd run more power than 65 is because I'd specifically be seeking a race with a good mixture of front and rear-drive opponents, with the rear-drives starting downfield. In other words, I like including Cappys and Beats in the line-up along with a smattering of the usual hatches and vans. I like doing this because it creates alot of drama, as there's a lap or two where total chaos is ensues--everyone is vying for position and stuff. 👍


I had to do three restarts to get a completely clean race....not because I was slamming my opponents, but because they kept slamming into me. Anyways...



The race starts, and I'm behind a Cappy.



Now in this pic, I'm vying for a good angle to get on the inside...





No contact...but damn close.



This pic and the one above clearly illustrate how close this one was. Phew....



Cappy is behind now, but angry and catching up. In this scene above, I'm passing the red Daihatsu Copen on the outside. I had good momentum at this point.



I'm able to get away from both the sports cars simply because I employed a short blip of braking, keeping more momentum, while the other cars HEAVILY laid onto their brakes. Tsk tsk....





Now I'm catching up to the black hatch ahead of me (whatever it is). Notice in the foreground: despite the poor braking of both sports cars, both of them have overshot the first hairpin with too much throttle, and are now clambering thru the small sand trap!

Edit: actually, the Cappy is okay in this pic. I didn't get one with both of them off-track...you'll have to trust me that it happened.



The above pic shows me going up behind the black hatch, as we round the final right sweeper. I SPECIFICALLY made sure I got this pic up, as it shows me braking. Brakes are actually not needed in this curve at all. Why am I braking then? Because if I didn't I would wind up slamming into the black hatch next to me. I could have just plowed into him, easily garnering myself 3rd place, but I'm showing restraint.



The pic above shows us all crossing the Start/Finish line, as Lap 2 now starts. I am solidly in 4th place, as you can see. Again, I coulda easily been in 3rd by now, if I had chosen to bodyslam the hatch. But I showed restraint instead. My heart is pounding by now as we approach the upcoming left kink into the long, right curve.



I positioned myself on the inside skillfully. I believe the hatch made an unnecessary brake at this point, which means I easily got ahead of him here as I was carrying more velocity.



....



This part got interesting. I managed to outbrake the white Suzuki Kei next to me into the first hairpin. I could have just rubbed him off-course (oof, that didn't sound right), but doing so is cheap and doesn't take any skill. I'd rather do it the clean way. 💡

Notice the two cars behind me and the Kei. The Cappy has totally back-ended the black hatch! Idiot.



Now look what happens. That's not me plowing into him, that's him overcomensating, and trying to ram into me!! Since he's doing so from the outside, he'll most likely be unsuccesful with this lame attempt.

I actually never noticed this bump from the Kei as I raced, interestingly.







The above 3 pics show the Minica gaining ground away from the Kei, obviously.







There's me passing the final car...actually a minivan of some sort. I think it's a Daihatsu Move.

Anyways, there you have it. I will post a couple more pics tomorrow showing the final tally (I wound up 1.2 seconds ahead of the minivan) as well as my oil lamp ON. These pics can't be carried on a USB, so I had to shoot them with my cell phone camera. It takes several hours (for whatever reason) to get an image from my cell to my email to GTP, so these 2 pics should be up tomorrow.


PS: DAng, I shoulda made bet over some cyber beer for this one....

 

[homeforsummer]

Nice report, Parnelli 👍

For reference: The black car is a Daihatsu Mira Avanzato TR-XX-R4 (that's one hell of a name!), and the white car you passed at the end is some variant of the Suzuki Wagon-R. All the Kei minivans pretty much look alike but I'm a bit of a geek for this sort of stuff! We were lucky enough to get the mental Mira in the UK in limited numbers but unfortunately Suzuki only ever saw fit to giving us some fairly wheezy versions of the Wagon R

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Nice report, Parnelli 👍

For reference: The black car is a Daihatsu Mira Avanzato TR-XX-R4 (that's one hell of a name!), and the white car you passed at the end is some variant of the Suzuki Wagon-R. All the Kei minivans pretty much look alike but I'm a bit of a geek for this sort of stuff! We were lucky enough to get the mental Mira in the UK in limited numbers but unfortunately Suzuki only ever saw fit to giving us some fairly wheezy versions of the Wagon R

I actually wanna try another go at this one. That final pass (the Wagon-R) was way too easy, which I have a feeling Altidxx is gonna complain about. So I'll get on that some other time, with a more challenging race leader.

But so far, I've proven our point, eh?. No off-road excursions. No bodyslamming. No ramming. No pushing. Not even any contact. At least not on my part.

It took 2 entire hours to do the race & put pics up, and I ain't gonna spend another couple hours tonite... It'll get done, tho.

 

[homeforsummer]

What A-Spec points did the game offer you? The highest it's given me so far was 49, for a completely standard Minica with an oil change - no turbo upgrade. I'm trying to find a car which can net me higher A-Spec points without making it impossible - I've tried a couple at around 100 points which just get left for dead (Suzuki Lapin Turbo and Honda S600 - the Lapin has awful, awful gearing which doesn't even have enough power in 2nd gear, and the Honda just isn't powerful enough) and a couple which win the race easily (Copen, Beat). The Minica seems a good challenge but still fairly easy, given that I can be in the lead in two and a half laps.

 

[RaidoGT]

On S2 tyres, just about *any* car is child's play to drive (and is way too fast if it's a street car). It's only after putting on N2 or N1 and switching off downforce and/or driving aids that they offer any kind of challenge.

But, that's partly because GT4 puts those S2's on most opponents by default as well. That's what I've found, anyway. (W/regard to regular street cars, that is.) In many races, the gameplay gets unbalanced as a result, especially if there's one of those 'hares' among the opponents. Which tends to happen rather a lot, and doesn't seem very realistic either.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

What A-Spec points did the game offer you? The highest it's given me so far was 49, for a completely standard Minica with an oil change - no turbo upgrade. I'm trying to find a car which can net me higher A-Spec points without making it impossible - I've tried a couple at around 100 points which just get left for dead (Suzuki Lapin Turbo and Honda S600 - the Lapin has awful, awful gearing which doesn't even have enough power in 2nd gear, and the Honda just isn't powerful enough) and a couple which win the race easily (Copen, Beat). The Minica seems a good challenge but still fairly easy, given that I can be in the lead in two and a half laps.

Hold on....I gotta plug in the correct memory card (I'm doing another set of races at the moment).

Edit: Replay doesn't list A-spec points, dangit. I never pay attention to that stuff. I'll definitely post the points when I do the race over tho.

 

[Pitracer100]

Must say I agree with Pitracer100 here.... Many, many races in GT4 are only two laps, which is ever so slightly moronically short. Another big WTF-were-they-thinking feature by Polyphony "Partly Braindead" Digital.
IRL, no races are that brief, and in GT4 it often means you have to drive like a maniac to pass nearly every car in lap 1 to have a chance of finishing first. Even if it were only 3 laps instead of 2, things would've been much better. Seriously uncool.

(The only exception being the Ring, of course; that track is so long it makes 2 laps plenty enough. But for nearly all other tracks...)

Regards, R
(GPLRank: -40)

For a driver of my caliber a race of 65 A-Spec points is a challenge but, RaidoGT clearly points out a some races are too short to act truely clean on a track that is small like the Tskuba with only 2 laps. Also, including the flying start.

 

[homeforsummer]

Tracks like Tsukuba and Motorland are definitely quite difficult when you're only attempting two lap races, and as you mention, with a flying start. If the battle genuinely can't be won at least fairly cleanly though I avoid bashing people out of the way.

Put it this way - if I'm going to "cheat" by having to push other cars out the way, then I may as well "cheat" instead by tuning the car to beat them cleanly. Obviously this won't net you a full 200 A-Spec points but it's ultimately more satisfying to have a clean race.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

On S2 tyres, just about *any* car is child's play to drive (and is way too fast if it's a street car).

I disagree (politely). There's actually a long list of autos which display a host of issues, even on S2s. Leaving these tires on won't necessarily make these issues go away.

Also, it's totally possible to create a race driving a car on medium sports tires (which the Ai are shod with) and still have it teeth-grittingly challenging. I do it all the time.

It's only after putting on N2 or N1 and switching off downforce and/or driving aids that they offer any kind of challenge.

But, that's partly because GT4 puts those S2's on most opponents by default as well. That's what I've found, anyway. (W/regard to regular street cars, that is.) In many races, the gameplay gets unbalanced as a result, especially if there's one of those 'hares' among the opponents. Which tends to happen rather a lot, and doesn't seem very realistic either.

I agree here. I like seeking races in which the hares (I call 'em jackrabbits) are somewhat downfield. If the race is anywhere from 2 to 5 laps long, sometimes the jackrabbit won't get to bolt ahead as easily (although often by the middle or end of the race it still will). It'll get bottlenecked behind slower vehicles. Which means by the time I'm up fighting for the lead, so are the jackrabbits. 💡

There are some race series, therefore, in which you actually can make the entire experience a heart-racing one, as you're actually battling several cars instead of just one, which is why I find GT4 so addicting at times.

 

[RaidoGT]

There's actually a long list of autos which display a host of issues, even on S2s. Leaving these tires on won't necessarily make these issues go away.

Agreed there. It also depends a bit on the car, of course, if you're using an SLR McLaren it'd be not quite out of place - but then that thing has the horsepower of a *race* car (heck, a 1970's F1 had less BHP).

But, I was referring to this more in terms of pure grip, and for 'regular' street cars - say 50 to 390 bhp - the default S2's are just too high-grip to be anywhere near realistic. On a small car like, say, a Corsa or Yaris, it's like having F2 or F3000 racing slicks (sticking out half a yard on each side).

Also, it's totally possible to create a race driving a car on medium sports tires (which the Ai are shod with) and still have it teeth-grittingly challenging.

True, true. Too easy for me, though, and it just doesn't feel right - bit Mario Kart-ish instead of getting the feeling of driving a real car. (And even on N2's GT just isn't very real-life like in that respect. Even with spinning tyres it always accelerates dead straight, while in GPL i'd have to continually correct to keep the car from swerving all over the place.)

At least it's possible to "grip down" in GT4, and on the right lineup it can indeed be fun to chase a 'hare' if he isn't in first place at the start.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

At least it's possible to "grip down" in GT4, and on the right lineup it can indeed be fun to chase a 'hare' if he isn't in first place at the start.

Yup.

 

[akjay]

Hood cam FTW! i just wish they had a rearview mirror on the hood cam so i dont slam into a wall looking behind me!