Immigration

[novcze]

Do you have polls to show that "muslim immigrants with certain cultural background" are a problem in the long run? The onus for sourcing is upon you, not me. You'd also have to show that the same was/wasn't true of any other "type" of person.

And this is why your position is so comfortable, when I come with the poll that shows for exmaple that shocking 78% percent of British muslims are deeply offended when there is picture of prophet mohammed published (which sounds to me like they would rather have a censorship), you will label this statistic as biased or you will find another flaw which may be also true, but you don't have anything better.

Other "biased" statistics can be found here
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/opinion-polls.aspx


It's really opinion vs. opinion and those who are trying to have some numbers are labeled as bigots, xenophobes or racist.

More childish, I'd say.

Good, it was the joke after all and I don't want to sound rude.

It can indeed make her a victim, I guess we'll have to disagree.

Do you often think about yourself in 3rd person?

What a crock of bollocks, I think. What about muslims who are several generations into being European, for a simple starter? Are you sure nobody wants to talk to them? Maybe it's just you who doesn't want to talk to them. Probably their loss.

Yes, badly written, my point was ... generally it is not possible to be part of muslim community if you are not a muslim. If muslim community is characterized with their common belief, I as an atheist do not qualify to be part of muslim community. I don't have a problem with talking to them on other topics, e.g. when doing business, in work, in school, etc. or form other communities with them where their "muslimhood" is not a topic.

 

[Encyclopedia]

Suspicions of a gang of masked individuals targeting foreign looking people in Stockholm. Situation is a bit unclear at the moment with some sources claiming violence toward non swedish looking people and other sources claiming it's not quite known yet. Neo nazis and football hooligans apparently. They've been handing out flyers with "it's enough" as a headline.

http://www.gp.se/nyheter/sverige/1.2974420-person-slappt-efter-stockholmsvald

Source only in Swedish so far.

*sigh* as if the situation wasn't tough enough. Now we've gotta deal with right wing extremists as well.

 

[eran0004]

(which sounds to me like they would rather have a censorship)

How do you come to that conclusion?

Suspicions of a gang of masked individuals targeting foreign looking people in Stockholm. Situation is a bit unclear at the moment with some sources claiming violence toward non swedish looking people and other sources claiming it's not quite known yet. Neo nazis and football hooligans apparently. They've been handing out flyers with "it's enough" as a headline.

http://www.gp.se/nyheter/sverige/1.2974420-person-slappt-efter-stockholmsvald

Source only in Swedish so far.

*sigh* as if the situation wasn't tough enough. Now we've gotta deal with right wing extremists as well.

A week ago as well:

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/regionalt/stockholm/valdsamt-upplopp

 

[mister dog]

How does an Xray make the Daily Mail stop inventing news and spreading lies?

Yeah because age fraud with refugees only exists in the Daily Mail right?

 

[eran0004]

Yeah because age fraud with refugees only exists in the Daily Mail right?

If it does exist on a wide scale, why would the Daily Mail feel the need present lies as if they were facts? Surely, if there's a widespread age fraud amongst people who claim that they're under 18, you'd think that they would be able to find at least one documented case of it?

No?

 

[Scaff]

And this is why your position is so comfortable, when I come with the poll that shows for exmaple that shocking 78% percent of British muslims are deeply offended when there is picture of prophet mohammed published (which sounds to me like they would rather have a censorship), you will label this statistic as biased or you will find another flaw which may be also true, but you don't have anything better.

Other "biased" statistics can be found here
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/opinion-polls.aspx


It's really opinion vs. opinion and those who are trying to have some numbers are labeled as bigots, xenophobes or racist.

What is the problem with anyone being offended with something?

People are perfectly entitled to take offence at anything they want (you for example seem to constantly take offence at Islam and Muslims).

Christians and Jews (and every faith under the sun) have and continue to take offence at things, Christians were deeply offended by the Life of Brian and even more so about Piss-Christ (a piece of modern art).

Now you ask what makes someone a bigot, xenophobe or racist about that? Well its when they take polls and use the numbers in a way that the question doesn't relate too. Someone taking offence (deeply or not) does not indicate that they will take further action about it, attack others about it, riot about it or are anything but peaceful about it. Its also bigoted, xenophobic or racist when you take that and only apply it to one particular group without any context as to how a similar action would impact other groups or religion.

You know, a lot like you seem to be doing.

Do you often think about yourself in 3rd person?

Which has nothing to do with this at all.

Yes, badly written, my point was ... generally it is not possible to be part of muslim community if you are not a muslim. If muslim community is characterized with their common belief, I as an atheist do not qualify to be part of muslim community. I don't have a problem with talking to them on other topics, e.g. when doing business, in work, in school, etc. or form other communities with them where their "muslimhood" is not a topic.

The exact same can be said about any religion. You can't be a part of the Christian community unless you are Christian (and I have attended enough Catholic masses with my wifes family to know this is certainly the case). So once again your attempt to paint this as a Muslim only issue is both nonsense and disturbing.

Its also nonsense to then imply from that, that it is not possible to discuss Islam if you are not a Muslim. Inter faith meetings and councils happen all the time, both at a top level and at a community level. I myself have regularly discussed faith and non-faith with Muslims and members of just about every religion.

 

[mister dog]

If it does exist on a wide scale, why would the Daily Mail feel the need present lies as if they were facts? Surely, if there's a widespread age fraud amongst people who claim that they're under 18, you'd think that they would be able to find at least one documented case of it?

No?

I think you'r a bit blinded by that article in particular, it is an actual issue as it's quite obvious that these people know that if they lie about their age they are protected under the protection of minors laws, and won't be deported.

You really think the Somalian who stabbed that girl to death is 15?:

And there are plenty more cases around Europe, of the 1490 'minors' that had the Xray of their collar bone done in Belgium during 2015, it turned out 70% of them were lying adults:

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/34662/Vluc...bij-gebeurde-bleek-70-toch-meerderjarig.dhtml

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You really think the Somalian who stabbed that girl to death is 15?

Somalia is a failed state. It has been for two decades. Do you really think that they keep meticulous records, or do you think that it is more likely that they only have a general sense of the passage of time?

 

[Dotini]

Somalia is a failed state. It has been for two decades. Do you really think that they keep meticulous records, or do you think that it is more likely that they only have a general sense of the passage of time?

Sumerians (Iraqis) millennia ago we're using algebra, trigonometry, even something approaching calculus, to prepare star charts and astronomical tables. They kept meticulous records on clay tablets in a language called cuneiform. These folks were at the zenith of human civilization on Earth. Long ago. Today, Arabs seem to be doing rather poorly in the IQ department. Perhaps it can be put down to disease, colonialization or the effects of religion?

 

[novcze]

The city destroyed by migration: Inside the Swedish town where armed gangs patrol the streets, crime has exploded and a beautiful social worker's murder has shocked Europe

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Today, Arabs seem to be doing rather poorly in the IQ department.

I wouldn't know anything about that. All I can do is look at Somalia and use common sense: it doesn't matter if you've hit the loftiest heights of civilisation - war tends to tear things apart at the seams.

 

[FoRiZon]

Sumerians (Iraqis) millennia ago we're using algebra, trigonometry, even something approaching calculus, to prepare star charts and astronomical tables. They kept meticulous records on clay tablets in a language called cuneiform. These folks were at the zenith of human civilization on Earth. Long ago. Today, Arabs seem to be doing rather poorly in the IQ department. Perhaps it can be put down to disease, colonialization or the effects of religion?

I kinda heard that the Mongol Invasion of Baghdad ended the Islamic Golden Age. But that was thousands years ago so should have been fixed in some way or somethings more wrong after that.

To be honest, Arabs isnt exactly failed at "IQ departement". You can say even more to Africa. I mean large number of their investment worked arround the world. The real problem Arab face is that the government seem to cant really go into peaceful manner, conflict most of the time.

 

[eran0004]

I think you'r a bit blinded by that article in particular, it is an actual issue as it's quite obvious that these people know that if they lie about their age they are protected under the protection of minors laws, and won't be deported.

There is no "protection of minors" law in Sweden. Minors who are not granted asylum are deported, just like adults.

You really think the Somalian who stabbed that girl to death is 15?:

What is your reason for doubting that he is 15? What specifically in that picture would you say indicates that the person is much older than that?

And there are plenty more cases around Europe, of the 1490 'minors' that had the Xray of their collar bone in Belgium, it turned out 70% of them were lying adults:

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/34662/Vluc...bij-gebeurde-bleek-70-toch-meerderjarig.dhtml

Of the 1490 minors for which there were doubts about their age. Not 70% all of the minors.
And so what? I'm sure there are doubts raised about an applicant's age in Sweden as well. The only difference is that the age check is not mandatory. And again, that doesn't mean that the claimed age is accepted. If they doubt that you're under 18 and you can't provide any evidence that you are, they will treat you like an adult.

 

[mister dog]

Somalia is a failed state. It has been for two decades. Do you really think that they keep meticulous records, or do you think that it is more likely that they only have a general sense of the passage of time?

Do you remember your age, or do you need to look at your papers each time otherwise you might think you're 10 years younger?

There is no "protection of minors" law in Sweden. Minors who are not granted asylum are deported, just like adults.

Ok didn't know that. But don't unaccompanied minors have a better chance at asylum in any case?

What is your reason for doubting that he is 15? What specifically in that picture would you say indicates that the person is much older than that?

A 15 year old boy still looks like half a kid, looking at his face he looks like he's in his 20's at least.

Of the 1490 minors for which there were doubts about their age. Not 70% all of the minors..

Ok but that's still a 1000 of them that cheated no? Not a small figure by any means.

 

[eran0004]

Ok didn't know that. But don't unaccompanied minors have a better chance at asylum in any case?

No. UM's are cared for on a different level (municipal rather than state) and they are assigned a trustee that will look after their interests (in the absence of their parents).

There is no difference between asylum criteras for adults and minors.

Both adults and minors can be granted residence permit in special cases, for instance if they have been in Sweden for a long time or suffer from a life-threatening medical condition.

A 15 year old boy still looks like half a kid, looking at his face he looks like he's in his 20's at least.

How old does this boy look to you?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/1...y-sentenced-85-years-for-killing-teacher.html

Ok but that's still a 1000 of them that cheated no? Not a small figure by any means.

Not at all, the article says that they were found to be older than they claimed. Wether they cheated or not is not known. The reliability of the age assessments have been questioned and the methods used can only provide a result with a confidence interval of about two years, which means that even if you're found to be 20 according to the assessment, your true age could very well be 18. So what we know is that 1000 people were reported to be found older than they were, but we don't know how many of them:

A. Lied about their age

B. Got an incorrect age assessment

C. Didn't know their own age

And even if we assume that all of them lied about their age, why would that be a big problem? Why does the Daily Mail consider it to be such a big problem that they think it's motivated to publish an article containing at least a dozen direct lies?

I mean Jesus Christ, one of the boys they published a picture of wasn't even a UM. He lived in Sweden with his family and given his fluent Swedish (I checked his facebook page all the way back to 2010) I'd say that he came to Sweden when he was much younger than 14.

 

[mister dog]

And even if we assume that all of them lied about their age, why would that be a big problem? Why does the Daily Mail consider it to be such a big problem that they think it's motivated to publish an article containing at least a dozen direct lies?

Because it's cheating in order to have a better chance at attaining Asylum in many countries.

 

[eran0004]

Because it's cheating in order to have a better chance at attaining Asylum in many countries.

How does it give you a better chance if it's obvious that you're older than you claim to be?

 

[novcze]

What is the problem with anyone being offended with something?

Not a problem until they start killing, which some do ... not only muslims if you ask

... (you for example seem to constantly take offence at Islam and Muslims).

which is not true, I get hardly offended by anything, I have a problem if they start killing othres when their faith is offended, which they do ... yes, numbers are low which doesn't make it any less of a problem.

Christians and Jews (and every faith under the sun) have and continue to take offence at things, Christians were deeply offended by the Life of Brian and even more so about Piss-Christ (a piece of modern art).

ok, to be less bigoted, xenophobic or racist how many people were killed as a result?

Someone taking offence (deeply or not) does not indicate that they will take further action about it, ..

... it also doesn't indicate that they will not take any action. It's not like other polls are rosy, it's even more disturbing
18% of Muslims support death sentence for apostasy, 21.9% oppose democracy . I'm open to anything that will prove that islamization of the Europe is not a problem, feel free to show me less xenophobic polls or statistics, until that I will use available evidence to form my opinion.

The exact same can be said about any religion. You can't be a part of the Christian community unless you are Christian (and I have attended enough Catholic masses with my wifes family to know this is certainly the case). So once again your attempt to paint this as a Muslim only issue is both nonsense and disturbing.

I don't talk about it as an "issue", where do you get it. I just stated why "we" can't join muslim community, and it looks like you agree.

 

[mister dog]

How does it give you a better chance if it's obvious that you're older than you claim to be?

Because they have to prove it first, and without any papers (or forged ones) that is difficult. I can't believe you're trying to dig up excuses for this really; it's fraud and you as a taxpayer are sponsoring it.

 

[novcze]

*sigh* as if the situation wasn't tough enough. Now we've gotta deal with right wing extremists as well.

exactly, also hardcore Christians are starting to show up ... one have to wonder why they come out of the woodwork just now

 

[eran0004]

Because they have to prove it first, and without any papers (or forged ones) that is difficult. I can't believe you're trying to dig up excuses for this really; it's fraud and you as a taxpayer are sponsoring it.

They don't have to prove anything. Maybe in Belgium they have to, I'm not that familliar with how it works there. In Sweden the Migration Agency does not have to prove a single thing. If they don't believe that you're the age you claim to be, they will treat you by the age that they think you've got. In Sweden the burden of proof lies on the applicant, not on the agency.

What exactly am I sponsoring?

 

[Scaff]

Not a problem until they start killing, which some do ... not only muslims if you ask

Odd then that you only seem to focus on one group in that regard.

which is not true, I get hardly offended by anything, I have a problem if they start killing othres when their faith is offended, which they do ... yes, numbers are low which doesn't make it any less of a problem.

Yet you seem (from the view I have of your posts) to want to use that to paint a picture of a whole group.

ok, to be less bigoted, xenophobic or racist how many people were killed as a result?

As a result of what? Things that say right wing Christian (for example) cosider to be offensive or against God?

Well in the US considerably more that Muslims:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/u...es-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0

Or we could go for The LRA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army

Or the Christian Terrorism in India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism#India

Or the Buddist 969 Movement in Burma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence#Myanmar

Would you like me to go on?

... it also doesn't indicate that they will not take any action. It's not like other polls are rosy, it's even more disturbing
18% of Muslims support death sentence for apostasy, 21.9% oppose democracy . I'm open to anything that will prove that islamization of the Europe is not a problem, feel free to show me less xenophobic polls or statistics, until that I will use available evidence to form my opinion.

That you start with a logical fallacy kind of highlights my points from above, you assume (without proof) that Europe is undergoing Islamification (and the link you provided provides no such proof)

Poll are a notoriously poor form of information, they are easily biased, easily manipulated and often contradictory. However what you seem to forget is that the vast majority have the opposite view!

I don't talk about it as an "issue", where do you get it. I just stated why "we" can't join muslim community, and it looks like you agree.

No more than we can't join the Jewish community unless we are Jewish, or the Buddist one, or the Christian one, etc. etc.

That the purely religious side of things. Does that mean that forming a wider community with differing faiths is not possible? Not even remotely and quite the opposite.

On my many trips to the Middle East I have been welcomed into the wider Muslim community, I have attended Muslim fesitvals in the UK, I have discussed faith and non-faith with many Muslims and I continue to use Muslim supermarkets to buy all my herbs and spices because they are both cheaper and of a far higher quality.

Never once in any of these situations have I ever felt uncomfortable or threatened or that I was not welcome.

 

[FoRiZon]

Odd then that you only seem to focus on one group in that regard.


Yet you seem (from the view I have of your posts) to want to use that to paint a picture of a whole group.



As a result of what? Things that say right wing Christian (for example) cosider to be offensive or against God?

Well in the US considerably more that Muslims:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/u...es-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0

Or we could go for The LRA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army

Or the Christian Terrorism in India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism#India

Or the Buddist 969 Movement in Burma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence#Myanmar

Would you like me to go on?



That you start with a logical fallacy kind of highlights my points from above, you assume (without proof) that Europe is undergoing Islamification (and the link you provided provides no such proof)

Poll are a notoriously poor form of information, they are easily biased, easily manipulated and often contradictory. However what you seem to forget is that the vast majority have the opposite view!




No more than we can't join the Jewish community unless we are Jewish, or the Buddist one, or the Christian one, etc. etc.

That the purely religious side of things. Does that mean that forming a wider community with differing faiths is not possible? Not even remotely and quite the opposite.

On my many trips to the Middle East I have been welcomed into the wider Muslim community, I have attended Muslim fesitvals in the UK, I have discussed faith and non-faith with many Muslims and I continue to use Muslim supermarkets to buy all my herbs and spices because they are both cheaper and of a far higher quality.

Never once in any of these situations have I ever felt uncomfortable or threatened or that I was not welcome.

Long story short, Muslims are human beings too.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Do you remember your age, or do you need to look at your papers each time otherwise you might think you're 10 years younger?

You're assuming that refugees from war-torn countries can just look at their papers. But Somalia in particular has been at war for over twenty years, and there is no government to speak of - so where are Somalians supposed to get their papers from, and how can they keep track of them? I used to work in a school with a refugee intake programme, and one of the first challenges that it had each year was figuring out how old the children were. Most of them only had a vague sense of how long they had been alive. They weren't trying to play the system and get something that they weren't entitled to; they genuinely had no idea.

 

[Johnnypenso]

You're assuming that refugees from war-torn countries can just look at their papers. But Somalia in particular has been at war for over twenty years, and there is no government to speak of - so where are Somalians supposed to get their papers from, and how can they keep track of them? I used to work in a school with a refugee intake programme, and one of the first challenges that it had each year was figuring out how old the children were. Most of them only had a vague sense of how long they had been alive. They weren't trying to play the system and get something that they weren't entitled to; they genuinely had no idea.

We're not talking about a third world hellhole with no government for 2 decades. We're talking about people showing up with smart phones, Levi's and Polo shirts. Slightly different.

 

[TenEightyOne]

You're assuming that refugees from war-torn countries can just look at their papers.

We're not talking about a third world hellhole with no government for 2 decades.

Aren't we?

Somalian

Oops, it seems we are.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Aren't we?

Oops, it seems we are.

And there are plenty more cases around Europe, of the 1490 'minors' that had the Xray of their collar bone done in Belgium during 2015, it turned out 70% of them were lying adults:

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/34662/Vluc...bij-gebeurde-bleek-70-toch-meerderjarig.dhtml

So every single one of these 1490 "minors" who don't know how old they are were Somalian?

 

[mister dog]

So every single one of these 1490 "minors" who don't know how old they are were Somalian?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So every single one of these 1490 "minors" who don't know how old they are were Somalian?

So every single one of those 1490 "minors" showed up with smart phones, Levi's and polos?

Once again, we run into your usual logical fallacy: you assume that what is true for one is true for all. My point in alluding to the Somalian civil war was to highlight that there is a set of circumstances where a refugee may not have any idea as to how old they are without any malicious intention or ulterior purpose.

Wipe the smirk off your face. You haven't proven anything. Your source only says that 70% of the people who had x-rays were not as old as they claimed to be. Nowhere does it say that any of them - much less all of them - knowingly lied about it to claim benefits that they were not entitled to.

Here's why you're going to lose this argument: you have to prove that all 1490 knowingly and deliberately lied; you have to prove the worst in all of them. I, on the other hand, simply need to demonstrate that one of them was acting in good faith - even if the other 1399 were not - thereby disproving your argument.

 

[mister dog]

Wipe the smirk off your face. You haven't proven anything. Your source only says that 70% of the people who had x-rays were not as old as they claimed to be. Nowhere does it say that any of them - much less all of them - knowingly lied about it to claim benefits that they were not entitled to.

Here's why you're going to lose this argument: you have to prove that all 1490 knowingly and deliberately lied; you have to prove the worst in all of them. I, on the other hand, simply need to demonstrate that one of them was acting in good faith - even if the other 1399 were not - thereby disproving your argument.