Immigration

[mister dog]

Here's what I liken it to. I have family in my home and I have guests. I'll put up with a lot more from the fam damily than I will from a guest. Native born sons and daughters are thrown in jail or otherwise punished when they act up, just as I would punish my son for example. But a guest who might do the same thing gets thrown the hell out. My son could get angry and trash a lawn chair but I'm not going to throw him out of the house for it. A guest does it and out he/she/they/it goes. Recent immigrants IMO, should be treated as guests. We've invited you in, we're spending our resources on you voluntarily out of the goodness of our hearts, but we're going to hold you accountable for your actions. Minor stuff you go to jail like everyone else, but if you act up with violence or commit major crimes you should get thrown the hell out of the country and not be allowed back in.

Hear hear.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Here's what I liken it to. I have family in my home and I have guests. I'll put up with a lot more from the fam damily than I will from a guest. Native born sons and daughters are thrown in jail or otherwise punished when they act up, just as I would punish my son for example. But a guest who might do the same thing gets thrown the hell out. My son could get angry and trash a lawn chair but I'm not going to throw him out of the house for it. A guest does it and out he/she/they/it goes. Recent immigrants IMO, should be treated as guests. We've invited you in, we're spending our resources on you voluntarily out of the goodness of our hearts, but we're going to hold you accountable for your actions. Minor stuff you go to jail like everyone else, but if you act up with violence or commit major crimes you should get thrown the hell out of the country and not be allowed back in.

It doesn't make the actions by your son okay, of course, but yes... I agree.

The problem is that in the case of @mister dog's story we don't even know if the youths were immigrants. It doesn't seem clear in that story and there's a history that suggests they may be Dutchlish by birthsh.

 

[mister dog]

It doesn't make the actions by your son okay, of course, but yes... I agree.

The problem is that in the case of @mister dog's story we don't even know if the youths were immigrants. It doesn't seem clear in that story and there's a history that suggests they may be Dutchlish by birthsh.

Yes they are, 50 youths from the Moroccan community:

http://www.gelderlander.nl/regio/de...utobranden-in-edese-wijk-veldhuizen-1.5994119

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes they are, 50 youths from the Moroccan community:

http://www.gelderlander.nl/regio/de...utobranden-in-edese-wijk-veldhuizen-1.5994119

So if you agree they're probably Dutchlish by birth then they aren't immigrants, their parents are.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Here's what I liken it to. I have family in my home and I have guests. I'll put up with a lot more from the fam damily than I will from a guest. Native born sons and daughters are thrown in jail or otherwise punished when they act up, just as I would punish my son for example. But a guest who might do the same thing gets thrown the hell out. My son could get angry and trash a lawn chair but I'm not going to throw him out of the house for it. A guest does it and out he/she/they/it goes. Recent immigrants IMO, should be treated as guests. We've invited you in, we're spending our resources on you voluntarily out of the goodness of our hearts, but we're going to hold you accountable for your actions. Minor stuff you go to jail like everyone else, but if you act up with violence or commit major crimes you should get thrown the hell out of the country and not be allowed back in.

The problem is that you're suggesting all migrants should be deported based on the actions of an absolute minority.

 

[Spurgy 777]

The problem is that you're suggesting all migrants should be deported based on the actions of an absolute minority.

When did he say that?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

He's assuming that inaction on the part of the authorities is an unwillingness to prosecute, either for fear of retribution or as a response to a directive from politicians who do not want to undermine humanitarian efforts. Either way, unrest breeds unrest, and the only logical conclusion is to pre-emptively deport everyone.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The problem is that you're suggesting all migrants should be deported based on the actions of an absolute minority.

He's assuming that inaction on the part of the authorities is an unwillingness to prosecute, either for fear of retribution or as a response to a directive from politicians who do not want to undermine humanitarian efforts. Either way, unrest breeds unrest, and the only logical conclusion is to pre-emptively deport everyone.

https://www.gtplanet.net/aup/

You will not knowingly post any material that is false, misleading, or inaccurate.

The criminals get thrown in jail and then tossed out, I didn't say anything about all immigrants. For example, I'd probably deport every one of these people if I had the choice:

 

[LeMansAid]

Woah, woah!!

Female journalist almost got stoned when she visited the area this week

Stoned in the Netherlands!!?...... Unthinkable.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

https://www.gtplanet.net/aup/

I don't think that it was false, misleading or inaccurate at all. You're quite happy to tell other people what they're thinking, but then you're up in arms when someone does it to you. I think that it's pretty obvious at this point that - at the very least - you distrust migrants, at least until they can prove that they aren't a threat to you.

 

[_Springy_]

Here's what I liken it to. I have family in my home and I have guests. I'll put up with a lot more from the fam damily than I will from a guest. Native born sons and daughters are thrown in jail or otherwise punished when they act up, just as I would punish my son for example. But a guest who might do the same thing gets thrown the hell out. My son could get angry and trash a lawn chair but I'm not going to throw him out of the house for it. A guest does it and out he/she/they/it goes. Recent immigrants IMO, should be treated as guests. We've invited you in, we're spending our resources on you voluntarily out of the goodness of our hearts, but we're going to hold you accountable for your actions. Minor stuff you go to jail like everyone else, but if you act up with violence or commit major crimes you should get thrown the hell out of the country and not be allowed back in.

Oh I agree. I was simply pointing out to @mister dog that there are many natives who are just as troublesome, as immigrants who do choose to break the law.

The problem is that you're suggesting all migrants should be deported based on the actions of an absolute minority.

He's assuming that inaction on the part of the authorities is an unwillingness to prosecute, either for fear of retribution or as a response to a directive from politicians who do not want to undermine humanitarian efforts. Either way, unrest breeds unrest, and the only logical conclusion is to pre-emptively deport everyone.

Where did he insinuate that? We must have be reading two completely different posts!

 

[Barra333]

The problem is that you're suggesting all migrants should be deported based on the actions of an absolute minority.

I might not agree with all of what @Johnnypenso says, but in this case, you have made a giant leap in logic, which is exactly what you take great pleasure in roasting others in this forum for. The entirety of his post was focused on people who break the rules and how they should be treated. There is nothing in that paragraph that suggests the jobseeking, law abiding immigrants should be kicked out.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

We must have be reading two completely different posts!

We are. Where you're reading one post, I am bearing in mind all of his on the subject.

 

[Dennisch]

Want to know how criminal Moroccans in the Netherlands really are?

These are the numbers from 2012.

Short summary. They are up to 5 times more likely to come in touch with the law. Only surpassed by the Antillians.

And with violent robberies the number is even sillier. Moroccans commit 22x more violent robberies than 'natives'. Antillians 23,9 times.

But Antillians aren't in the news that much because (I suspect) that they're a smaller minority.

The Moroccans and Antillians are topping the criminality index when it comes to origin. Both ~9% , native Dutch 1,5%

So, we have a problem with them. And seeing how most of them still see themselves as Moroccans first and Dutch second, and they have a Moroccan passport, you can still take away a passport and kick them out if they can't behave.

 

[_Springy_]

We are. Where you're reading one post, I am bearing in mind all of his on the subject.

Having had a quick read through I think I'll take leave of this thread, before this thread makes me take leave of my senses. It's become nothing more than a grudge match between xenophobes trying to tar all immigrants with the same dirty brush, through some less than reputable sources, and those in utter denial that some immigrants are causing issues at all.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

those in utter denial that some immigrants are causing issues at all

We're not in denial about it. We're just opposed to what comes across as a concerted effort to demonise immigrants of a particular background.

 

[Johnnypenso]

We're not in denial about it. We're just opposed to what comes across as a concerted effort to demonise immigrants of a particular background.

Who is "we" by the way? You and your friends up in the tower?
I will harken back to a couple of recent posts of mine as a response.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. In a not so subtle way you are demonizing me because I disagree with you. I couldn't possibly have just considered your positions and disagreed with them. No! I'm not that smart I consciously disregard the merits of the point being argued because I'm blinded...blah blah blah. Like I said, many so called progressives think they have the one and only answer and if you disagree with them it can't simply be because you have thought about their position and don't agree with it and choose to have an alternate viewpoint. No, there must be some other nefarious force at work that prevents you from seeing the light. Maybe you're racist, maybe you're a xenophobe, maybe you're a homophobe, or, like me, maybe you're willfully ignorant.

You said I willfully disregard the merits of whatever point is being argued. How many smart people do you know that willfully disregard the merits of an argument? Of course, it's all about my character now. Again, same thing and back to my original point. Some so called progressives like to label and demonize those that disagree with them.

 

[mister dog]

We're not in denial about it. We're just opposed to what comes across as a concerted effort to demonise immigrants of a particular background.

I'd wager that when a big part of these communities commit crimes and don't have the slightest of respect for their host country or the local population, they are doing a pretty good job in demonizing themselves.

@Johnnypenso's example of a guest in your house is a pretty good one and quite obvious too. I'm an immigrant myself being a Belgian in Spain. I don't commit crimes, i try to be respectful towards Spanish people and i speak the language. I also work for a living thus i contribute to society by paying taxes. This is good immigration, whilst importing people that simply don't want to adapt to our culture and serve to wreak havoc and take advantage of the welfare system isn't. These bad apples should be removed from our societies, and countries should have the chance to deport those that hold a double nationality and who proved that they outstayed their welcome.

If i start robbing people or setting cars on fire, i shouldn't be surprised if Spain kicks my butt back to Belgium.

 

[Scaff]

I'd wager that when a big part of these communities commit crimes and don't have the slightest of respect for their host country or the local population, they are doing a pretty good job in demonizing themselves.

@Johnnypenso's example of a guest in your house is a pretty good one and quite obvious too. I'm an immigrant myself being a Belgian in Spain. I don't commit crimes, i try to be respectful towards Spanish people and i speak the language. I also work for a living thus i contribute to society by paying taxes. This is good immigration, whilst importing people that simply don't want to adapt to our culture and serve to wreak havoc and take advantage of the welfare system isn't. These bad apples should be removed from our societies, and countries should have the chance to deport those that hold a double nationality and who proved that they outstayed their welcome.

If i start robbing people or setting cars on fire, i shouldn't be surprised if Spain kicks my butt back to Belgium.

Sounds like every Brit that's 'retired' to Spain.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Another tv crew appears to have been run off from a cafe, this time in Norway. The article and video are Norweigan if anyone is interested in confirming the accuracy of the google translate:

When they were filming a police intervention atmosphere became really nasty. The young people were masked and extremely aggressive. They had no repsekt for the police and did not know we were there either, says Mohammed Alayoubi. Suddenly, someone threw a rock against the group. - They threw a stone at us as we stood next to the police. It was great also, surely one kilogram, he said.

But according to Tino Sanandaji suddenly started young men emerge from outside and behaving threateningly. Some of them were masked. "The more aggressive began fussing in Arabic with the Norwegian cameraman who has an immigrant background. When the menacing atmosphere began to be physical, we decided to cancel the interview." , He writes on his Facebook page.

Perhaps they were mistaken for the Australian 60 Minutes crew.

 

[mister dog]

Sounds like every Brit that's 'retired' to Spain.

Sexy beast!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'd wager that when a big part of these communities commit crimes and don't have the slightest of respect for their host country or the local population, they are doing a pretty good job in demonizing themselves.

History is full of instances where civil disruption has been a catalyst for positive social change. Everything from the American Revolution through to Arab Spring has had its roots in civil disobedience.

There is an attitude amongst the political right that immigrants should be thankful and deferential to host nations and cultures for taking them in. It's an understandable position, but the way it is presented quite often comes across as "leave your culture in your homeland and assimilate". Look at the statistics posted above: migrants from the Antilles are involved in crime more than migrants from Morocco, but it's the Moroccans who people are calling on to be deported. That's not to say that it's not a problem problem, but rather that a double standard is being applied.

Between the expectation that migrants assimilate (often with no grace period; the expectation is to assimilate within minutes of arriving), the demonisation of culture, and the way the media and conservatives are so quick to point out incidents like this - like a nail that needs to be hanmered in - it's understandable as to why there might be discontent within society.

Rather than trying to force the issue, you need to work with migrant groups. The most successful migrant resettlement programmes are founded on the idea of co-operation, not the one-sided equation of "assimilate or leave".

 

[mister dog]

but the way it is presented quite often comes across as "leave your culture in your homeland and assimilate". Look at the statistics posted above: migrants from the Antilles are involved in crime more than migrants from Morocco, but it's the Moroccans who people are calling on to be deported. That's not to say that it's not a problem problem, but rather that a double standard is being applied.

It's pretty simple; show respect for other people and don't be a criminal, and you can maintain your culture, habits or customs as long as they fall inside the law (at least that's the way i feel about it). There's no double standard between Moroccans and Antillians as far as i can tell, just that people like me want either of them jailed or banned from the country if they do not respect its laws. It works the same here @ GTP, violate the rules and you get banned also.

Between the expectation that migrants assimilate (often with no grace period; the expectation is to assimilate within minutes of arriving), the demonisation of culture, and the way the media and conservatives are so quick to point out incidents like this - like a nail that needs to be hanmered in - it's understandable as to why there might be discontent within society.

Whilst i agree the media will try to follow an agenda both on the left or right side of the political spectrum, in the end it balances out the coverage because both agendas are out there reporting on what they see fit. But you cannot deny facts, and the fact in this particular case is that there's a problem with large groups of migrant youths misbehaving. Rocks were thrown, cars were set on fire, and property was destroyed. Same with Cologne during new years eve; women were sexually abused and robbed: fact.

I know you can't expect immigrants to assimilate from day one, but can't we expect that at the very least they do not commit criminal acts?

Rather than trying to force the issue, you need to work with migrant groups. The most successful migrant resettlement programmes are founded on the idea of co-operation, not the one-sided equation of "assimilate or leave".

Co-operation works on both sides, i'm positive a migrant that shows willingness to cooperate and do good, will also end up good and get the chances he/she deserves. But the ones that do not have that mentality and resort to criminal acts do not deserve to be part of society, just like we put our native criminals in jail too.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

But the ones that do not have that mentality and resort to criminal acts do not deserve to be part of society, just like we put our native criminals in jail too.

And thus you find yourself in the chicken-and-egg scenario, or who blinks first - do the migrants acquiesce to the host nation, or does the host nation extend support from day one?

 

[mister dog]

And thus you find yourself in the chicken-and-egg scenario, or who blinks first - do the migrants acquiesce to the host nation, or does the host nation extend support from day one?

If you look at how the west is handling newcomers in general, i don't think there's a lot migrants can complain about. Shelter, food and chances are provided to refugees from the beginning, and regular migrants have the same opportunities anyone has to make a living for themselves.

Try to do that the other way around; go to Africa or Asia as a westerner and depend on the host nation to provide you with all the necessities from the get go. I think you'll have a much harder time.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

If you look at how the west is handling newcomers in general, i don't think there's a lot migrants can complain about. Shelter, food and chances are provided to refugees from the beginning, and regular migrants have the same opportunities anyone has to make a living for themselves.

Try to do that the other way around; go to Africa or Asia as a westerner and depend on the host nation to provide you with all the necessities from the get go. I think you'll have a much harder time.

It's not a question of providing basic necessities - it's a question of cultural acceptance. A lot of Muslims feel that they are presumed to be guilty until they can prove their innocence. Whether or not this is true is beside the point; in this case, perception is stronger than reality.

 

[novcze]

another not true muslim in action ...

Afghan refugee with axe attacks passengers on German train

 

[Carbonox]

There's more of the No True Islam™ going on in France as well. Could this have been prevented by wearing a burqa?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/girl-fighting-life-after-mum-8448196

 

[TenEightyOne]

another not true muslim in action ...

Afghan refugee with axe attacks passengers on German train

There's more of the No True Islam™ going on in France as well. Could this have been prevented by wearing a burqa?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/girl-fighting-life-after-mum-8448196

Your points being that they are true Muslims rather than not being? Sigh.

Don't forget that First Nation people are all terrorists too now, they all want to shoot cops and impose totem law etc.

 

[novcze]

Your points being that they are true Muslims rather than not being? Sigh.

they are muslims, that's common pattern lately ... question is what makes them true or not and what authority it decides. But because I'm sensitive guy I use phrase "not true muslim" to not offend muslims who follow different quran interpretations.

Don't forget that First Nation people are all terrorists too now, they all want to shoot cops and impose totem law etc.

who said anything about muslims being all terrorists?