Immigration
- Thread starter KSaiyu
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Scaff
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- He/Him
- ScaffUK
How about reviewing a number of sources and comparing and contrasting the content and coverage to come to a balanced view that may present an alternate view point and/or new information?
That would be a start, however your 'go-to' source of the Mail (which while you do not use it exclusively - you do use heavily) is reckoned as being one of the single most biased rags in the UK.
Did you own and edit a newspaper that championed Islamist views and ensured the views of the Islamist community were given a heavy coverage?
Have you spoken inn support of Islamist views at Islamist meetings that included those who not only advocated violence against 'others' but also carry it out?
Have you written a book that is considered a touchstone for Islamists?
Except the Jack Carter story DID get coverage in the press and the shooting DID get coverage in the press.
As such yes he has added his own bias to these stories and presented them as if a conspiracy exists to cover them up exists. If that were the case then a simple google search would not have turned up press articles on both of them.
As far as the sentence and charge in the Jack Carter death goes, he doesn't bother to mention that he was killed by a single punch (a fact disputed by no-one) and that under UK law that is Manslaughter. Had the CPS attempted to try them for murder the case would have failed and as such manslaughter was the correct charge. Its also not something they were 'allowed' to plead guilty too (anyone charged with any crime is allowed to plead guilty or not guilty - as such that line, the inclusion of 'was allowed' make it seem as if special privilege was given), nor was this a case of a law put in place or used to appease Muslims.
The sentence was in fact in line with the norm for single punch deaths...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...verage-sentences-of-less-than-four-years.html
...and has nothing at all to do with religion. Yet that is exactly how its presented in the extract you have quoted. Does that law need changing? Well that's a totally separate point of discussion, but even the most basic examination of the facts around this case show that its not a case that was either ignored by the press or leniency given due to religion. Yet that is exactly how its been presented.
Your source is not an honest broker and has clearly and deliberately misrepresented and excluded facts and associated data pertinent to the claim to paint an inaccurate and biased picture.
What actually concerns me most is that you don't question it, you don't look past what has been claimed, you simply swallow it and repeat it as if it were established fact.
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- 11,626
- Intercourse, PA
- Carbonox
Swedish social democrats would welcome you to their party.
KSaiyu
(Banned)
- 2,822
Which means....what exactly? Can I see these contrasting sources.
So only the Far Right can associate with the book?Scaff
It's an attack brought about by racial tensions. You'd think the national press would be all over it. Instead it's limited to Yorkshire newsScaff
Stuff like this happens all the time yet nationally no-one knows about it because it never makes it to national news. And as Mr Lockwood points out, it's not just Asian on white:
But to assert there’s very little race crime? Sorry. Not true. I’m reminded of the case of a schoolboy, set on fire by a pair of Asian youths in the town centre in broad daylight. It was on Saturday, near the market, at a time and in a place where the town’s at its busiest. Proper shopping tourists still come to Dewsbury from all over the county, on coach trips even, to visit our renowned outdoor market.
THE RACE attacks aren’t exclusive to one ethnic group upon another. Just along the platform from the door to the pub a young Asian student, waiting for the Huddersfield train with his pals on a Christmas shopping trip, was inexplicably
knifed to death by two white teenage drug-addicts. Ahmed Hassan was a model pupil, a quiet boy, who went to the same school as my son at the time he was killed. Most of the victims of race violence in our town tend to be minding their own business. Unlike Ahmed however, most also tend to be white. The colour doesn’t make the difference . Crime is crime and never victimless, racially motivated or not. It’s authority’s tacit submission to it as an acceptable part of the town’s social fabric that angers and frightens conscientious parents most. They’re not sure anyone is on their side any longer, not the police, not the politicians, not anyone in authority.
Curiously if you google "Ahmed Hassan" you see that this story is covered by the BBC, the Telegraph, Daily Mail, Sky News etc etc but I digress.
Not quite.Scaff
- 11,146
- Sweden
- eran0004
If you knew anything about statistics you'd know that statistics can be manipulated in a great a number of ways to support whatever you want to say. First you decide what your conclusion is, and then you pick the statistics that'll make it look like you're right.
"Ethnic Swede" is a difficult term to work with. Roughly 25% of Sweden used to be Danish. And 50% of what once was Sweden is now Finland and Russia. 50% of what's now Sweden is actually sami land, and in the north, a big part of the native population are Finns. So when you say "ethnic Swede", what does that even mean and why is it important?
My next door neighbours for several years were refugees from the war in Iraq and they were very nice people. You see, xenophobes spend an awful lot of time trying to convince us that immigrants are criminals, but the truth is that most refugees who come here are well educated.
As to the video? Well, let's take it from the start:
0:04. "This is the rape capital of Europe". Implying that rape is more common in Sweden than anywhere else is Europe. That is a lie, because there's no such statistics. The statistics show the number of reported crimes, not the number of committed crimes. When rape statistics go up, it's often because the willingness to report it has increased, not that the number of committed rapes have gone up. Sweden also have a wider definition of rape than most other European countries and have had that for a long time, so the statistics of reported crimes doesn't compare the same things.
0:35. "We aren't allowed to talk about it". False, there's no one stopping you. People will disagree, that's all. And why should you be allowed to speak while those who disagree aren't?
0:39. "Here in Sweden, everything is considered racist". No it's not. Racists like to claim this when they don't get what they want.
0:48. "It's racist to suggest that we should decrease immigration". No it's not. It's considered selfish by a lot of people though, since Sweden is one of the wealthiest countries in the world. It's racist when you say that immigration needs to be decreased because of ethnicity. And in the end it always boils down to that.
0:50 "Even though there's a lack of housing...". ...for young people who wants to live right in the middle of the biggest cities. Oh, he forgot to say that, didn't he? In other places, we're actually demolishing perfectly good houses because no one wants to live there and it would cost too much to maintain them.
0:55 "We have an increasing number of immigrant beggars on the streets" They're beggars, but they're not immigrants.
1:02 "It's racist to forbid begging and to make their own country take care of them." No it's not. It's primarily considered mean and selfish to forbid people to beg. What's considered racist is when you assault them, set fire to their camps and throw acid in their faces. Note that he shows a picture of a bus with an "anti-beggar" message and a headline that says that the bus driver didn't want to drive the bus because he didn't want to spread racist propaganda. What the picture shows a part of the election campaign of the Sweden Democrats, and why people would consider them racist I have no idea.
Oh wait, yes I have:
1:06 "I know the term racism doesn't apply to people asking for money..." As if they were only people asking for money. They're Roma, and they have a long history of discrimination and persecution, in Sweden and in Europe.
1:10 "Everything is racist and no one ever has to explain why". On the contrary, it's being discussed all the time. It's just that people like him tend to claim that it's all "PC" without actually listening to what's being said.
1:15 "The power lies within the accusation, not the fact". So... it's just like the use of the term "PC"? Except that racism is actually a thing, while PC isn't.
1:19 "Our former prime minister said that Sweden belongs to the immigrants". No, he said that Sweden does not belong ONLY to the people who have lived here for 4 or 5 generations, it belongs to everyone who lives here, including immigrants.
1:30 "In another interview he said that Swedish culture had happened thanks to outside influences and that Swedishness in its primary state is just barbarism. As if everything positive of Sweden is only thanks to immigration."
Wether you like it or not, Sweden has relied on craftsmanship and military expertise from abroad for about a thousand years, as long as Sweden has existed as a country. And even before then, the Vikings gladly traded with people all the way from America to Turkey.
We have a Swedish folk dance called "Polska", and the reason behind the name is that it originates from Poland. Before we had the Polska, folk dancing was done in big groups, everyone together. But then, when people saw that in Poland they danced in couples they thought "that could be a nice thing to do" and so they brought the dance over the Sweden.
We have a traditional Swedish dish called "Kåldolmar". Only, it's originally a Turkish dish, brought back to Sweden by our "warrior king" Charles XII (the nazis are all crazy about that dude) who spent some time in Turkey after some of his less successfull endeavours on the battlefield. He also brought quite a lot of Turkish soldiers back to Sweden when he returned, and gave them the name "Askersson" (asker is Turkish for soldier).
Swedish classical music was imported from London (mainly from Händel) and a lot of the Swedish folk music is inspired by Bach.
The monk who brought Christianity to Sweden came from Hamburg.
During the Hanseatic time Sweden imported almost everything from the Germans. A lot of modern Swedish words have german origins.
During the 1700's Sweden imported almost everything from the French. A lot of modern Swedish words have french origins.
During the 1800's Sweden imported the Christmas tree from Germany.
In the early 1900's Sweden imported a Catholic saint and created a new tradition around her. They also took an Italian song and wrote new lyrics to it, and all together this formed the tradition of celebrating the saint Lucia.
During the 1600's Sweden imported skilled craftsmen from Liège.
The most Swedish of foods, the potato, is imported from South America.
In 1983 we imported the practice of celebrating a National Day and officially Sweden doesn't have a National Anthem (yet?).
During the 1950's and 1960's Sweden imported popular music from Britain and the USA. Since then, English has been the main language for pop songs in Sweden (even if your audience is entirely Swedish-speaking), and is also part of the reason why music is one of our most successful export products today.
Truth is that it's really hard to find anything about Sweden that hasn't got roots elsewhere. And I dare to say that it's the same for every other country on Earth. People meet, people trade, society develops. That's universal and Sweden isn't unique in that sense.
I could go on, but it'll take too much time to go through the entire video. You get my point.
See the above.
KSaiyu
(Banned)
- 2,822
So that's a no then, you don't live in an area affected by rapid, mass immigration. Forgive me if I listen more to the opinions expressed here than regurgitated PC apologism.
Scaff
Moderator
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- He/Him
- ScaffUK
I have to find sources for you now?
Quick hint, if the only source for a claim is one know to carry a high level of bias then question why its the only source.
Nicely quote mined.
If that had been the only point I made you might have a point, it wasn't, you ignored the rest, which is rather telling.
Are you seriously going to claim that he doesn't even slightly come across as having a racial and religious bias?
Instigated by the friends of the dead man, you and your source fail to mention that part.
Does every crime hit the national headlines or are the majority limited to
What 'makes the national news' depends on a huge range of factors, but you keep up your idea that its a plot to appease Muslims.
Yes, because they were both identical crimes and its just a plot to keep bad news about Muslims out of the papers and to brain wash the public. That one involved a single punch and the other a singl estab to the back from a person who had been released from a young offenders centre three days earlier.
Yep - exactly the same.
That I wonder why every observation I made about is post you didn't mention when you quoted it and stated "Then again a lot of the book that I've read so far isn't his opinion, but rather stories that have been kept buried by the PC brigade, such as:"
Yet it peppered with his opinion, an opinion that does not match the facts. As I said "Your source is not an honest broker and has clearly and deliberately misrepresented and excluded facts and associated data pertinent to the claim to paint an inaccurate and biased picture.", yet you present it without a single caveat.
- 29,385
- Bratvegas
- GTP_Liquid
Hungary being a bully in terms of ethnic or territorial expansion but crying persecution when anyone calls them up on it isn't new though. It's always had a history of this kind of stuff. If the EU didn't want these problems, don't let these kind of people in your club in the first place. Exactly the same with giving Greece an unlimited credit line. Would you give an addict as much heroin as it wanted? Of course not.
It is worrying just how autocratic and dictatorial Hungary is becoming though. Changing the constitution like last week's bedsheets.
KSaiyu
(Banned)
- 2,822
What's the excuse this time. Can we not trust the testimonies because they're schoolchildren 
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/03/is-it-time-for-the-jews-to-leave-europe/386279/
The Atlantic
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/03/is-it-time-for-the-jews-to-leave-europe/386279/
- 11,146
- Sweden
- eran0004
There is no rapid, mass immigration. If you want that you need to go to Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan.
And there's the PC card again
Yes, let's see what the people of Malmö has to say:
http://www.sydsvenskan.se/malmo/malmoelever-mer-positiva-till-invandrare/
(Youths in Malmö are more positive to immigrants than youths in the rest of Skåne)
http://www.val.se/val/val2014/slutresultat/R/rike/index.html
(Latest election result. The Sweden Democrats weren't more popular in Malmö than in the country as a whole - strange if Malmö is such a horrific example of immigration gone wrong, isn't it?)
http://som.gu.se/digitalAssets/1347/1347680_107-120-sannerstedt-attityd.pdf
(Survey of attitudes towards immigration. Result: The closer to the city you live, the more positive you are towards immigration)
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
I was wondering when you would get around to Godwin's Law. I'm impressed that you lasted this long.
Still, you haven't bothered addressing the point - that you don't actually contribute anything other than fear and vitriol, and the occasional straw man argument. It's very hypocritical of you to talk about "evolving our ideas" when your ideas are as bigoted as they are punitive and oppressive. There's no evolution there. There's nothing sophisticated. There's just a man wailing in the darkness because he is afraid that other ways of thinking might be accepted as better than his way of thinking - even when those other ideas never tried to supersede them. You're nothing more than a Rudyard Kipling living in George Orwell's raj.
KSaiyu
(Banned)
- 2,822
What's the excuse this time. Can we not trust the testimonies because they're schoolchildren
The Atlantic
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/03/is-it-time-for-the-jews-to-leave-europe/386279/
And, just in case you missed it in this post:
What's the excuse this time. Can we not trust the testimonies because they're schoolchildren
The Atlantic
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/03/is-it-time-for-the-jews-to-leave-europe/386279/
- As it stands you're still being reduced to ad-hominem attacks, and still refusing to offer an alternative hypothesis. Exactly as predicted in the post I made about PC.
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- 6,146
- Germany
The EU is already tearing itself apart with handling Greece's finacial problems, this is just going to add to the drama.
Personally, I just find it hilarious that all the EU does is talk about quotas on how many immigrants have to go to which country. I think the fundemental problem in his whole thing is, that we try to cope with the current situation instead of trying to prevent it from happening at all. These quotas are merely temporary solution and not permenant solutions.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
There is no excuse - just a simple statement of fact. These stories that you share are written to a foregone conclusion: that immigration is a stain on the face of Britain, and that British cultural values are being threatened and undermined. Naturally, the author is only going to seek out testimony in line with this and disregard anything else - and the more extreme or exaggerated the testimony, the more receptive the audience will be to it, and the more likely it is that it will be included in the story. But you have ignored the obvious agenda of the author and have instead presented these fringe opinions as being representative of all of Britain.
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KSaiyu
(Banned)
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The author is Jeffrey Goldberg and the piece is assessing whether it is time for Jews to leave Europe. It's not about Britain.
Scaff
Moderator
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- He/Him
- ScaffUK
Odd because Britain is in Europe and the piece itself names David Cameron?
"And while we still have leaders such as Manuel Valls, Angela Merkel, and David Cameron, who seem to understand this and make it their priority to transform this into policy, maybe there is still place for hope."
The author seems to think its about all of Europe, the UK included. When did he inform you otherwise?
The article itself also focuses on European Jews being targeted by the far right as well as Islamic extremists, yet you present only one of those elements. Why, when the author specifically ask about the far right?
KSaiyu
(Banned)
- 2,822
These stories that you share are written to a foregone conclusion: that immigration is a stain on the face of Britain, and that British cultural values are being threatened and undermined. Naturally, the author is only going to seek out testimony in line with this and disregard anything else - and the more extreme or exaggerated the testimony, the more receptive the audience will be to it, and the more likely it is that it will be included in the story. But you have ignored the obvious agenda of the author and have instead presented these fringe opinions as being representative of all of Britain.
The article explores France, the UK, Sweden, Belgium, Moldova and others. The quote taken from the piece is showing French experiences in a Parisian suburb that experienced mass Muslim immigration.
The article explores France, the UK, Sweden, Belgium, Moldova and others. The quote taken from the piece is showing French experiences in a Parisian suburb that experienced mass Muslim immigration.
- 38,873
- Application hell
- MP-Omnis
Immigration wouldn't be a problem if Sweden actually respected private property and wasn't such a welfare state. In other words, there is a reason why everyone is going to Sweden.
This guy is just saying "Don't take from everyone and give it to immigrants, take from everyone and make sure we still have enough."
That's not exactly honorable.
KSaiyu
(Banned)
- 2,822
It's like trying to put sticking plasters on the Titanic.
The latest figures are ridiculous:
In the first three months of this year Hungary received the highest number of asylum applications per capita in the EU, with 3,322 applications per one million inhabitants. Sweden was second, with 1,184 per million. Britain had 114 per million.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4473750.ece
This is simply an invasion by any other name.
- 6,146
- Germany
Exactly!
I'm not against the people, that seek asylum in Europe and Germany for that matter. A lot of these people have suffered under conditions unimaginable for us spoiled Europeans, but everytime the media, the politicians and the organisations talk about this topic, they always talk about how xy country needs to offer them asylum, instead of asking or rather looking for solutions to prevent this from happening at all.
KSaiyu
(Banned)
- 2,822
Here you go @prisonermonkeys, a Guardian take on a British city. This one you might have heard of - they recently lost a family to Syria.
- 3,078
- Sweden
Do you?
You probably should've mentioned Malmö's shift in demographics. I'm fairly sure that it's affecting the election's results and overall opinion regarding immigration.And there's the PC card again
Yes, let's see what the people of Malmö has to say:
http://www.sydsvenskan.se/malmo/malmoelever-mer-positiva-till-invandrare/
(Youths in Malmö are more positive to immigrants than youths in the rest of Skåne)
http://www.val.se/val/val2014/slutresultat/R/rike/index.html
(Latest election result. The Sweden Democrats weren't more popular in Malmö than in the country as a whole - strange if Malmö is such a horrific example of immigration gone wrong, isn't it?)
http://som.gu.se/digitalAssets/1347/1347680_107-120-sannerstedt-attityd.pdf
(Survey of attitudes towards immigration. Result: The closer to the city you live, the more positive you are towards immigration)
I'd also like to point out that Malmö - a city which I for the record live in - should never in the slightest be considered some kind of role model for immigration, or this country for that matter. Malmö has many problems directly related to the influx of immigrants and our generous policies. You can throw our ''wealth'' around as much as you'd like to, but it won't ever change this country's inability to have a meaningful integration policy, nor the fact that we are currently (and have been doing so for many years) accepting far more people than we actually are capable of. Finding housing is a major issue, as is integration and letting them being part of our society - rather than having these people (almost literally) rot in one of our less desireable Million Progamme.
It's nice to be ''open'', ''tolerant'' and ''embrace immigration/diversity/multiculturalism'', but as it stands, it's simply not sustainable and recent opinion polls are clearly a testament to that - Swedish nationalists score record support.
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