Indy 500: Not a full grid?

[millencolin]

The split that tony george made in american open wheel racing may now come back and bite him on the backside. while self-proclaiming that his series is better, the strong possibility exists that he may not even get a full 33 cars for his premier event, the indianapolis 500.

If there isnt 33 cars, that will be a first since 1947

but Mr goerge is saying, "It's just a number!" Just a number, yes, but its a number full of history. many cars have missed out on qualifying for the indy 500 because there was only 33 spots, now anyone with an engine/chassis/driver can qualify for the indy 500. the tradional feel of the race has been long gone.

Plus, in recent times, tony has wanted the champcars and the indycars to become one series. Just remember Tony, YOU were the one who made the split. Are you regreting it now since you couldnt buy out CART?

 

[Blake]

I laugh! And go the blues!

 

[DRIFT4EVA]

I say...... GO SCOTT DIXON!!! Hopefully this year he can pull it off.

 

[millencolin]

go Bruno Junquiera and Newmann/hass.......that would be a good site to see, champcar driver and team beating the defactos of cart.......and GO THE MAROONS

 

[Blake]

Pfft, QLD

 

[millencolin]

watch us win buddy

 

[The359]

1) CART teams have won the Indy 500 since the IRL split. Penske did it, Chip Ganassi did it, Andretti Green Racing nearly did it.

2) The Indianapolis 500 had more then 33 cars 2 years since 1947, yet no one complained then.

3) You show me a series that isn't having trouble finding cars to fill the field. Hello, NASCAR's filling their fields with crap amateur drivers to make them look bigger. At least George admits they're having trouble getting cars and teams together.

4) Tony never said he wanted to recombine CART and the IRL. He wants to buy out CART so he can dismantle it and take from it the things he wants to use for IRL.

5) 33 is just a number, it was set as a maximum amount of people that can qualify so that during the race there would be sufficent spacing out between the cars for better safety.

6) If CART were in charge of the Indy 500 instead, you think they'd do any better? I think not. So this whole IRL bashing crap is moot.

 

[Pupik]

I think Tony George will manage to twist a few arms and get some drivers into the third/spare/T-car entries just t bolster the grid to 33.

Just wait, this whole worry about less than 33 cars is a real non-event. Besides, who can really track all 33 of the cars? I'd rather there were 25 good entries.

 

[millencolin]

Originally posted by The359
1) CART teams have won the Indy 500 since the IRL split. Penske did it, Chip Ganassi did it, Andretti Green Racing nearly did it.

now aint that a coincidence...... plus the reining IRL champion is an ex-cart rookie of the year in an ex cart team. Shows ex-CART teams excellence and expertise from competiting in champcars

Tony never said he wanted to recombine CART and the IRL.

Mr george has stated numourus times in the recent past that the best way foward is for the series to merge, to be one series.

3) You show me a series that isn't having trouble finding cars to fill the field.

Ok, the V8supercars series, best touring cars in the world

6) If CART were in charge of the Indy 500 instead, you think they'd do any better?

if tony kept his indy 500 and didnt make his own breakaway series, none of this bull**** would of happened. he would of done a better job if he didnt interfere with CART back then.

 

[The359]

Originally posted by millencolin
now aint that a coincidence...... plus the reining IRL champion is an ex-cart rookie of the year in an ex cart team. Shows ex-CART teams excellence and expertise from competiting in champcars

No, it shows those teams excellence altogether. Are you saying Penske won the Indy 500 merely because they were doing so well in CART? Or because they're Penske and the man owns the Indy 500? Or how about Andretti/Green, run by the man who grew up at Indianapolis? Or Chip Ganassi, who raised the great Juan Pablo Montoya? Just because these teams were in CART at the time of their Indy 500 wins does not mean that CART is in any way superior. Especially since all those teams NO LONGER RACE IN CART. If CART were so great, don't you think they'd still be racing there?

Mr george has stated numourus times in the recent past that the best way foward is for the series to merge, to be one series.

And anyone with half a brain knows that by "merge" he means do away with all the old CART rules, all the old CART cars, keep a few of their tracks, and bring in some new teams. In other words, buying out CART and throwing away the stuff he doesn't need. Read: DaimlerChrysler.

Ok, the V8supercars series, best touring cars in the world

I highly doubt that V8 Supercars can be considered the best touring series in the world, considering they don't even race outside their own country (excluding a skip over to New Zealand). The DTM, BTCC, ETCC, STCC, JGTC, and Speed GT series might all object...

Also the V8 Supercars are not a major internationally renowned series. F1, F3000, CART, IRL, NASCAR, WRC, FIAGT, FIASC, ALMS, LMES are. And I'd like for you to point out any of those series that doesn't have less entrants this year then in previous years.

if tony kept his indy 500 and didnt make his own breakaway series, none of this bull**** would of happened. he would of done a better job if he didnt interfere with CART back then.

So, what, you think the whole economic problem with motor racing in general would never have happened if CART and the IRL split?

 

[millencolin]

Originally posted by The359
No, it shows those teams excellence altogether. Are you saying Penske won the Indy 500 merely because they were doing so well in CART? Or because they're Penske and the man owns the Indy 500? Or how about Andretti/Green, run by the man who grew up at Indianapolis?

well its a little ironic that the original IRL teams just cant seem to compete against the former cart teams

Or Chip Ganassi, who raised the great Juan Pablo Montoya?

juan Pablo was raised by frank williams, frank got his drive with chip so he can place him into his f1 team at a later date, if he performs, which he did

I highly doubt that V8 Supercars can be considered the best touring series in the world, considering they don't even race outside their own country (excluding a skip over to New Zealand). The DTM, BTCC, ETCC, STCC, JGTC, and Speed GT series might all object...

It is a world renowned racing series, considered by the vast majority as the best and most competitive touring car series in the world. it is growing in international stature, with a race in china next year and planned races in dubai. for such an isolated continent, thats a great feat. oh and they are internationally renowned. bathurst is one of the worlds famous races. the drivers have international acclaim (dick johnson, drove nascar, ex-v8driver david brabham, larry perkins ex-formula one, peter brock - one of the worlds most famous and reconised touring car drivers, paul radisich ex-british touring car and alex yoong is in the v8supercar feeder series) most v8 drivers competed in europe/america before coming back to v8s. jason bright was in indy lights, had a great champcar start in australia in 2000, and now is back in the v8s. plus factory support from triple eight racing and prodrive.

So, what, you think the whole economic problem with motor racing in general would never have happened if CART and the IRL split?

where did u get that from american open wheel racing was at a very high point before tony caused the split, and since then both leagues have gone down the drain. if tony didnt spit the dummy, american open wheel racing would be rivalling nascar.

 

[The359]

The original IRL teams also had to start from scratch, so of course they had trouble competing with the powerhouses. How many of the other CART teams could compete with Penske, Ganassi, Andretti (excluding Foresythe).

And do you think Williams just stuck Montoya with any old team?

And no, V8 Supercars is considered on par with the likes of BTCC, DTM, and JGTC nationwide. All have their famous drivers, former F1 guys and whatnot, all travel internationally.

Now, since I know you're not in America I know you wouldn't know this, but NASCAR is on the decline due to economic problems. Sponsers aren't willing to put up the money to support teams, meaning less cars. The same is happening to CART and the IRL. Even if CART and IRL were together, they'd still have a lot less cars then they had before the split.

 

[3rdgenracerX]

Originally posted by The359
Now, since I know you're not in America I know you wouldn't know this, but NASCAR is on the decline due to economic problems. Sponsers aren't willing to put up the money to support teams, meaning less cars.

Thats false for the most part. Nascar isnt having any trouble in the Truck or Busch series with getting a full field, in nearly all of the Bush and Truck races they've had more than the 43 bush and 36 trucks show up for each race. They are having a insignificant problem in the Nextel Cup series with having a highly compettive 43 car field. So far all of the Nascar races have had a full grid come raceday. Actually the Nextel cup races only have a 1-2 "un compettive cars field each week, the problem is that independants can no longer compete in the Nextel cup because of the technoliges involved. And NO nascar isnt paying them to fill the field out, they are showing up because they want to race, as the mighty $$$, luck and experiance has it they cant compete with the rest because of those factors. The rest of the cars 40-41 could win and are sponsored, the only teams that I can think thats having a slight sponsorship problem is the 99 Jack Roush ford, and the team that has jimmy spencer driving for them.
Now the Truck and Bush series have some unsponsored teams "independants" but thats common with ANY support series.

 

[The359]

Originally posted by 3rdgenracerX
Thats false for the most part. Nascar isnt having any trouble in the Truck or Busch series with getting a full field, in nearly all of the Bush and Truck races they've had more than the 43 bush and 36 trucks show up for each race. They are having a insignificant problem in the Nextel Cup series with having a highly compettive 43 car field. So far all of the Nascar races have had a full grid come raceday. Actually the Nextel cup races only have a 1-2 "un compettive cars field each week, the problem is that independants can no longer compete in the Nextel cup because of the technoliges involved. And NO nascar isnt paying them to fill the field out, they are showing up because they want to race, as the mighty $$$, luck and experiance has it they cant compete with the rest because of those factors. The rest of the cars 40-41 could win and are sponsored, the only teams that I can think thats having a slight sponsorship problem is the 99 Jack Roush ford, and the team that has jimmy spencer driving for them.
Now the Truck and Bush series have some unsponsored teams "independants" but thats common with ANY support series.

The Truck series and Busch don't have the number of vehicles that Nextel has, and they aren't as big cost wise. Look at Toyota Atlantic, they're having no problem having fields while CART is bankrupt. And yes NASCAR is paying these teams, because years prior teams like these wouldn't even show up for qualifying because they weren't needed.

Everyone out there knows that NASCAR's field and sponsers are on the decline. It's due to the current economic recession.

 

[millencolin]

Originally posted by The359
The original IRL teams also had to start from scratch, so of course they had trouble competing with the powerhouses. How many of the other CART teams could compete with Penske, Ganassi, Andretti (excluding Foresythe).

You also forgot newmann/hass, rahal (when they were in cart), Patrick racing. But those IRL teams had a 3-5 year head start on the others, they've been doing the same races and format for 3-5 years ahead of the powerhouses, they should be able to challenge them.

And do you think Williams just stuck Montoya with any old team?

Oh hell no, they stick him in the team that they are taking a driver from......swap montoya for zanardi. and this is frank williams, one of the most powerful men in motorsport, as if he would settle for montoya in a dale coyne car. Frank was stealing one driver while raising one at the same time

Now, since I know you're not in America I know you wouldn't know this, but NASCAR is on the decline due to economic problems.

So narrow minded. Just because im not an american (aussie through and through), doesnt mean i know about news in motorsport. i have cable tv, which shows NASCAR, and i watch it. also motorsport enws on the internet. ALL motor racing series have experiencing some sought of economic recession, but nascar still seems to be the better off of all series. How many cars do they have? 43? damn, a series must be doin bad if they only have FORTY-THREE CARS.

Even if CART and IRL were together, they'd still have a lot less cars then they had before the split.

Maybe, Maybe not. the whole point is though If the series STAYED AS ONE, american open wheeel racing wouldnt be in such a crisis that its in. Champcars financial situation (now resolved), IRL's poor crowd figures and tv figures. its all too confusing for the average american.

 

[The359]

And as should be pointed out, Rahal and Patrick are now full IRL teams as well.

And you do seem unaware of the fact that NASCAR is on the decline. However if you think NASCAR is doing so well merely because they have 43 regular cars running for the full season, then that's a bit of a narrow minded assessment. Running a NASCAR team costs a lot less then running an IRL team. The same as running an IRL team costs less then running an F1 team, and F1 only has 20 cars. Are you trying to say that NASCAR is better then F1 because they have twice as many cars in the field? No, they clearly aren't. But 43 is down from the amount of cars that used to run full NASCAR seasons.

Now, just to prove the misnomer that is IRL's poor attendence figures, the Nazareth Speedway here in Pennsylvania has announced that they will be closing due to lack of attendence at their two major events, the IRL race and the Busch Series Race. They noted however that they have never been able to fill the stands at Nazareth since the retirement of Mario Andretti when CART raced at Nazareth. They also notice that even though the IRL took over the races at Nazareth, attendence has remained EQUAL to already poor amounts that were from the CART days. Now tell me again that open wheel racing, when unified, would have been so great...

 

[3rdgenracerX]

Originally posted by The359
The Truck series and Busch don't have the number of vehicles that Nextel has, and they aren't as big cost wise. Look at Toyota Atlantic, they're having no problem having fields while CART is bankrupt. And yes NASCAR is paying these teams, because years prior teams like these wouldn't even show up for qualifying because they weren't needed.

Everyone out there knows that NASCAR's field and sponsers are on the decline. It's due to the current economic recession.

I guess you really didnt read my post. Are you sure you know Nascar?

Nascar Nextel Cup Series: 43 car field
Nascar Bush Series: 43 car field
Nascar Truck Series: 36 car field
Thats still more cars that show up for far less prestigeous races compared to the Indy 500.

You dont think Nascar is expensive Seriously I HAVE to laugh at you, expect to spend MILLIONS of dollars in Nextel Cup in R & D alone. Thats for one car, imagine how much you'd spend if you owned 4-5 cars? Good thing the sponsors pay for it.

Your kidding yourself if you think Nascar pays the Independants to show up. The only money Nascar pays out to EVERY team is contengience money for having the fender decals on the car. You dont put them on then you dont get money from Nascar. Thats the only money nascar pays to every team Independant or not. Your nascar ingornace really shows if you think that independants have not been showing up for the races years prior to this, they have. Maybe not the same indipendant team but many different ones have. 5-10 years ago when the economy was alot better and the bush and then know winstion cup "nextel cup series now" were at the same track during the same weekend then some of the bush teams brought along a bush car with a winstion cup engine and attempted to qualify for the cup race. Sometimes you'd have over 50 cars to show up for qualifying, still the same 40 cars would qualify for the races because they were a whole lot better than the one time racers. Just like "dare I say" F1 you cant jump into the series and expect to be a contender for the win, you cant expect the same in the Nextel cup, bush series, truck series. It all takes time, money, experiance, and having good people working around you.

There have been 60 different people this season alone who has made the 43 car field at least once and raced for points. Possibly 80ish different people who have made an attempt to qualify for a Nextel Cup race.
Some weeks there may only be 43 cars to show up for the race, sometimes it can be 44,45,47,49. It depends on the track and the prestigue of that particular race.

Ever watch Wind Tunnel with Dave Despain?
During one of his shows a naysayer such as yourself was saying the same thing about nascar and how it was about to die from low attendances, sponshorships, ect........

Dave couldnt have said it better, "this is what I remember him saying" You know, If I had a race series of my own and I was #1 in TV ratings, earnings, and track attendances, the teams and I were making money from all of it then I would be Nascar.

Now tell me how can Nascar be failing if they are #1 in about every catagory compared to every other sport in america? Less cars showing up for the 43 car field, so what. Who gives a crap if 48 cars showed up for the race and 5 of the cars were 2-3 seconds off the 43rd place qualifyer? 41 good cars that can win qualify for the race every time. Racing is all about the quality of the racers in your field not how many you can put on the track.


If your basing your opinions off of the 43 car field then you are the Narrowminded individual in this discussion. Nearly every Nextel cup race has been sold out, there's been a few where you could see empty seats. Busch sell out some of their races "they only sell certian ammounts of seats per track" Truck's have great attendances, especially at the short tracks where they sell out every time.


The toyota atlantic isnt a cheap series to run in either. IIRC the last time I saw a race they were talking about their poor attendance for the teams and cars because of the $$$ involved in being compettive in the series. I think they said you needed 1-5 million to be compettive. Could have been more. Only 18 cars showed up for the first race this season, far less than years prior.
They dont have a set limit on the fields they go by the 110% rule and the availabilty of pit boxes "dont believe me look at sections 6.18.1 and 6.18.2 of the toyota atlantic rule book, http://www.toyotaatlantic.com/2004Rulebook.pdf
The same basic pricible is used in Nascar, if you qualify for the field then your in the race, dont meet the criteria then go home.

BTW, for a succesful open wheel series took at the Star Mazda Series, they came out with a new car this season "finally after 15ish years" 1st race they had 33 NEW cars show up for the race.

 

[The359]

1) IRL is more expensive then NASCAR. I never said NASCAR is cheap, but it is cheaper then running an IRL or CART team. No denying this at well. Hence why it is easier for NASCAR to get 43 cars then it is for IRL to get 33.

2) NASCAR has been bringing in uncompettive cars to fill the field this entire season, as pointed out just look at the cars that qualified before and the cars that qualify now

3) Just because NASCAR is #1 doesn't mean it isn't on the decline. They certainly aren't doing as well as they were a few years ago

4) I guess I must be making this crap up since nearly ever race broadcats brings up the point of NASCAR's diminishing fields and the measures the officials are taking to help combat this.


Let me put it another way. NASCAR has always had more entrants to the Daytona 500 then there have been entrants to the Indy 500. Does that make the Daytona 500 infinitely superior? No, its because NASCAR is cheaper and stock cars are easier to come by, hence more people can afford to enter. Simple fact. You wasted that entire post because you don't realize this fact. You're comparing a cheaper orange to a more expensive apple.

 

[The359]

Nay-Sayers are going to need something else to whine about. The Indianapolis 500 easily has a full 33 car field yet again.

 

[millencolin]

obviously with no help from tony george (here have money and race)

and i wouldnt say EASILY....usually the entries are booked ages ago, not a week before the race.