Input lag

TBH i couldn't give a crap about the technical jargon. I see results, and that is all that matters at the end of the day. If i didn't i would have being a bit annoyed, but £30 aint exactly £150
 
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dancardesigner : Is that direct from Monster? Lol, that is some spin. I really liked the part about interference but at least they mention at the bottom length makes a big difference though their 3' to 10' is quite flimsy and it should be more like 10 meters+.
 
dancardesigner : Is that direct from Monster? Lol, that is some spin. I really liked the part about interference but at least they mention at the bottom length makes a big difference though their 3' to 10' is quite flimsy and it should be more like 10 meters+.

Eyepattern test is what all cables go through. Maybe when i bought my Monster the other HDMI cables were only 1.2.

But all 1.1 1.2 1.3 is, is different levels of passing the eye pattern test.

Say HDMI 1.4 comes out and improves the quality again. Where do you think this improvement comes from? It's merely just better quality cables that have being put through more rigarous and stricter tests, it's not a whole new concept, connector or data transfer type.

Like i said i can see the results. I have not tried a monoprice to compare but i have tried others.
 
this conversation is idiotic. People confessing infinite wisdom to each other. Let this thread die please. Move onto "TGS Major Advancement" !!
 
Dan you have bought the marketing hype.

As I said, yes Monster cables are better than your standard cable. They are about .0002% better and they cost about 9000% more.

All the test Monster does and which you have bought into are marketing. Why you ask? Surely science can't lie?

Because they are measuring things that are quantifiable but have no real world value.

Take a look at the lamp in your room. The lamp cors is probbably twisted copper. It's probably not very high grade copper, lots of impurities. Monster makes some VERY high quality oxygen free 99.99 percent pure copper cables. I can scientifically verify that they are better than your lamp cord.

Now swap your lamp cord for the monster cable. Is your light now better? Do you have a richer, more natural light?

No of course not.

Why? Because the differences we measured do not make any difference in performance . The end result is your lamp cord is good enough for the elctricity to get through to turn on your bulb. No better result is achieveable and so no better wire will help.

While the eye pattern test is indeed the best test for how reliable a cable is, what they forget is that after a certain point it doesn't matter how big the eye is, it's big enough.

So while a monster cable may test better, the generic cable with lower test scores may still have a more than big enough eye to carry data reliably.

That is why these test are just marketing.

It doesn't matter if a truck can tow 10tons if the maximum you ever will tow is 1 ton. Monsters test basically tells you:

If your truck doesn't have enough power, you will struggle when towing too much weight. Monster Trucks have been scietifically proven to tow over 20 times what the othe trucks do, this proves the superioirity of Monster trucks and justifies their 9000% price increase.

What they don't mention is that the standard is to tow 1 ton, regular trucks can tow 2 tons and monster trucks can tow 40 tons.

They didn't lie, they just creatively told you what would sell you their product. See what I am saying?

Which brings the final point.. the best scientific test is an eye pattern test... but the results are meaningless if you don't pair them with the right specifications.

I do see where you bolded the color misrepresntation issue. While technically accurate, the missrepresntation will manifest itself in VAST color missrepresntation (that's why it's called sparkles) and will be in isolated pixels, not like you would get with a poor analogue connection where the color just washes out.

You must remember how digital works, if I send over 10111010 and the one of the zeroes gets misread as a 1 then I migth get 10110010. The resulting pixel will be NOTHING NEAR the original. It won't be the difference between red and pink. And digital failures in cable do not run consistenly like they do in analog.

Take a VGA cable an expose it to so much interference you overcome it's shielding. The pitcure will develop ghosts, colors will tint and go out etc.

Do the same with an HDMI cable, the picture will hold, then it will develop sparkles of random strengh in random areas, then it will hit the digital clif and just fail. It will never produce the same kind of image degradation an anlog signal will.

So again, monster has not lied (again credit to their marketing team) they have just creatively told you the truth in a way to make you believe something which in the real world just doesn't matter or isn't pertinant.

There is so much double talk in that monster thing that it's overwhelming to try and explani why it all is so wrong while technically being right.

BTW I can't see the screenshots they show representing one cable against another, but it would be itneresting to see. If it shows anything besides sparkles or a dropped picture, it's a lie (or a very creative truth) or it's a different standard cable being unfairly compared.

They did this once on a speaker cable test I saw. They had a lightbulb and it had monster cable and regular speaker cable run to it, you could switch to whichever cable you liked. With the regular cable the bulb was faint and weak, with the monster cable it was strong and vibrant. They guy had all the literature about how monster is oxygen free, super high quality, hand polished and super shielded and that's why it was better than the other cable which is what came in the box with a HTIB.

All the same marketing key words and tests...

They did not like it when I asked them why they were comparing 8 guage monster cable to 26 guage speaker wire.

The truth was, the HTIB speaker wire didn't powe the bulb well because it was so thin.

The same test was recreated (I believe by avsofurm users) with the same monster cable used by monster for their test, but instead it was tested against same guauge generic speaker cable... and a $.70 cent piece of lamp cable from radio shack.

The results were identical on all 3.

This isn't the same marketing, but remember with monster, it's all marketing.
 
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Eyepattern test is what all cables go through. Maybe when i bought my Monster the other HDMI cables were only 1.2.

But all 1.1 1.2 1.3 is, is different levels of passing the eye pattern test.

Say HDMI 1.4 comes out and improves the quality again. Where do you think this improvement comes from? It's merely just better quality cables that have being put through more rigarous and stricter tests, it's not a whole new concept, connector or data transfer type.

Like i said i can see the results. I have not tried a monoprice to compare but i have tried others.

Actually improved standards often come from improved components (ie the the HDMI controllers on the device and receiver) and simply having the standard raised. True it may push some of the worst quality cables out of the running, but it doesn't mean the monster are in any way needed.

Remember the difference in a 10mbps network and a 100mbps network is not the cat5 cable between the devices... it's the network cards in the devices.
 
Dan you have bought the marketing hype.

As I said, yes Monster cables are better than your standard cable. They are about .0002% better and they cost about 9000% more.

All the test Monster does and which you have bought into are marketing. Why you ask? Surely science can't lie?

Because they are measuring things that are quantifiable but have no real world value.
Take a look at the lamp in your room. The lamp cors is probbably twisted copper. It's probably not very high grade copper, lots of impurities. Monster makes some VERY high quality oxygen free 99.99 percent pure copper cables. I can scientifically verify that they are better than your lamp cord.

Now swap your lamp cord for the monster cable. Is your light now better? Do you have a richer, more natural light?

No of course not.

Why? Because the differences we measured do not make any difference in performance . The end result is your lamp cord is good enough for the elctricity to get through to turn on your bulb. No better result is achieveable and so no better wire will help.

While the eye pattern test is indeed the best test for how reliable a cable is, what they forget is that after a certain point it doesn't matter how big the eye is, it's big enough.

So while a monster cable may test better, the generic cable with lower test scores may still have a more than big enough eye to carry data reliably.

That is why these test are just marketing.

It doesn't matter if a truck can tow 10tons if the maximum you ever will tow is 1 ton. Monsters test basically tells you:

If your truck doesn't have enough power, you will struggle when towing too much weight. Monster Trucks have been scietifically proven to tow over 20 times what the othe trucks do, this proves the superioirity of Monster trucks and justifies their 9000% price increase.

What they don't mention is that the standard is to tow 1 ton, regular trucks can tow 2 tons and monster trucks can tow 40 tons.

They didn't lie, they just creatively told you what would sell you their product. See what I am saying?

Which brings the final point.. the best scientific test is an eye pattern test... but the results are meaningless if you don't pair them with the right specifications.

I do see where you bolded the color misrepresntation issue. While technically accurate, the missrepresntation will manifest itself in VAST color missrepresntation (that's why it's called sparkles) and will be in isolated pixels, not like you would get with a poor analogue connection where the color just washes out.

You must remember how digital works, if I send over 10111010 and the one of the zeroes gets misread as a 1 then I migth get 10110010. The resulting pixel will be NOTHING NEAR the original. It won't be the difference between red and pink.

So again, monster has not lied (again credit to their marketing team) they have just creatively told you the truth in a way to make you believe something which in the real world just doesn't matter or isn't pertinant.

There is so much double talk in that monster thing that it's overwhelming to try and explani why it all is so wrong while technically being right.

BTW I can't see the screenshots they show representing one cable against another, but it would be itneresting to see. If it shows anything besides sparkles or a dropped picture, it's a lie (or a very creative truth) or it's a different standard cable being unfairly compared.

They did this once on a speaker cable test I saw. They had a lightbulb and it had monster cable and regular speaker cable run to it, you could switch to whichever cable you liked. With the regular cable the bulb was faint and weak, with the monster cable it was strong and vibrant. They guy had all the literature about how monster is oxygen free, super high quality, hand polished and super shielded and that's why it was better than the other cable which is what came in the box with a HTIB.

All the same marketing key words and tests...

They did not like it when I asked them why they were comparing 8 guage monster cable to 26 guage speaker wire.

The truth was, the HTIB speaker wire didn't powe the bulb well because it was so thin.

The same test was recreated (I believe by avsofurm users) with the same monster cable used by monster for their test, but instead it was tested against same guauge generic speaker cable... and a $.70 cent piece of lamp cable from radio shack.

The results were identical on all 3.

This isn't the same marketing, but remember with monster, it's all marketing.

Why does no one believe me when i say i can see it. It's nt like i'm saying i've seen Jesus or anything.

**** the technical jargon, what matters is the real world. And in the real world ''i'' see an improvement. Theres no need to make these long winded posts trying to convince me otherwise. I know what i can see.

Like i said, i don't know wether my previous cable was HDMI 1.2 or wether monoprice cables are as good, as i have not tried them. But i have compared to a £10 cable from game and a £3o shielded cable, and there was improvements to black levels and and accuracy of colours.

End of, there is nothing further to discuss.
 
Eyepattern test is what all cables go through. Maybe when i bought my Monster the other HDMI cables were only 1.2.

But all 1.1 1.2 1.3 is, is different levels of passing the eye pattern test.

Say HDMI 1.4 comes out and improves the quality again. Where do you think this improvement comes from? It's merely just better quality cables that have being put through more rigarous and stricter tests, it's not a whole new concept, connector or data transfer type.

Like i said i can see the reults. I have not tried a monoprice to compare but i have tried others.

Umm.... its the processing that is handled at the end device. Having a 1.1 device hooked up to a supposed 1.4 cable isnt going to make a bit of difference quality wise. The cable just carries the data between and when a new standard comes along those older cables are just retested and relabled. Do you really think its just the cables that make the difference?
 
Umm.... its the processing that is handled at the end device. Having a 1.1 device hooked up to a supposed 1.4 cable isnt going to make a bit of difference quality wise. The cable just carries the data between and when a new standard comes along those older cables are just retested and relabled. Do you really think its just the cables that make the difference?

No but the cables have to meet the requirements, which my monster did back then and my other cables probably didn't since there contrast, black levels and ghosting were all worse. They show a picture, but it's not as good.

PS3 Slim supports 1.3 so in theory should produce better picture clarity then PS3.
 
No but the cables have to meet the requirements, which my monster did back then and my other cables probably didn't since there contrast, black levelsand ghosting were all worse.


PS3 Slim supports 1.3 so in theory should produce better picture clarity then PS3.

Thats why nobody believes you. Thats not a change you would see with HDMI. Pixilation, sparkling, any sort of noise decrease would be what you would see.

All PS3's are 1.3
 
Why does no one believe me when i say i can see it. It's nt like i'm saying i've seen Jesus or anything.

**** the technical jargon, what matters is the real world. And in the real world ''i'' see an improvement. Theres no need to make these long winded posts trying to convince me otherwise. I know what i can see.

Like i said, i don't know wether my previous cable was HDMI 1.2 or wether monoprice cables are as good, as i have not tried them. But i have compared to a £10 cable from game and a £3o shielded cable, and there was improvements to black levels and and accuracy of colours.

End of, there is nothing further to discuss.

Do you believe those guys with "MUSIC CDR" actually had better MP3 Playback?

Do you believe the gold plated optical cable improved sound over regular optical cable?

The people who bought them sure did. They literally heard a difference!

Just like you see a difference.

Again I am not saying you are a liar, you do believe you see a difference.

Maybe you actually do see a difference. But it's not why you think it is, it's not because of monsters incredible quality. The difference you described is not attainable by simple better grade cable.

That's what you keep missing. A standards jump from 1.1 to 1.3, yes maybe THATs why you got a better picture, but not because monster has bigger eyes....

Look, I am telling you the truth, and if you want to double blind it, I will garuantee you I am right. I will eat my hat if I am not (and I don't even own a hat so I will have to go buy a hat just to eat it!).

If you are happy with your purchase, then it doesn't really matter if you actually got a better picture or why. If you actually want to know and be educated on the subject, you are going to have to come to grips that you were snookered by marketing at some point before you can move on.

BTW here is a fun way to realize how unrealibe your eyes really are

http://www.colourtherapyhealing.com/colour/colour_fun/cube_illusion.php
 
Thats why nobody believes you. Thats not a change you would see with HDMI. Pixilation, sparkling, any sort of noise decrease would be what you would see.

But i do.

You don't have to believe me, i don't really care. All that matters is what is.
Until you buy one yourself.

It's like saying from a technical point of view the Nissan GTR shouldn't beat the koenigsegg CCX around the ring, but it does. Real world application is what matters, not just some jargon you believe that you have googled.
 
No but the cables have to meet the requirements, which my monster did back then and my other cables probably didn't since there contrast, black levels and ghosting were all worse. They show a picture, but it's not as good.

PS3 Slim supports 1.3 so in theory should produce better picture clarity then PS3.

You cannot get ghosting from an HDMI cable.
 
is the halo effect around the edges, like a white mist not ghosting?

This is some (very bad) ghosting

ghosting.jpg


The halo you speak of is usually a result of very high contrast setting on your display or possible a source issue.

The short of it is, you cannot have any image distortion that effects a large area uniformly. You get random degradation and sparkles, you cannot get a fuzziness, you cannot get a repeated image (ie ghosting), you cannot get washed out colors etc from hdmi cable quality.


First google result with ghosting and hdmi

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=69056

I am having the same exact issue that you have described. My set is doing it with both HDMI and Component,

http://www.avforums.com/forums/hdmi...poor-quality-hdmi-cable-cause-ghosting-2.html

Not actual ghosting and not a cable related (this is probably a scaler or deinterlacere issue)

Most of the results I see are people who happen to have ghosting while using HDMI but it's not FROM HDMI. I garauntee you it's from the disply or the sending end, not the cable.
 
But i do.

You don't have to believe me, i don't really care. All that matters is what is.
Until you buy one yourself.

It's like saying from a technical point of view the Nissan GTR shouldn't beat the koenigsegg CCX around the ring, but it does. Real world application is what matters, not just some jargon you believe that you have googled.

Once you understand the technology you dont have to buy one to realize its just clever marketing. Besides that, as mentioned ealier, I have experience with that M1000 cable(and many others) when my buddy was suckered into purchasing it with his PS3. Dont get me wrong its a nice thick cable and has some nice connectors and no doubt over long (10+ meters) it could make a difference but at 8' unless your old cable was the equivalent of silly string you wont see a different especially what you claim to have seen.
 
This is some (very bad) ghosting

ghosting.jpg


The halo you speak of is usually a result of very high contrast setting on your display or possible a source issue.

The short of it is, you cannot have any image distortion that effects a large area uniformly. You get random degradation and sparkles, you cannot get a fuzziness, you cannot get a repeated image (ie ghosting), you cannot get washed out colors etc from hdmi cable quality.

This is just a copy of the first page of Google.

Sony Bravia KDF-E50A12U Ghosting Effects (HDMI Connected to TV and ...4 posts - 3 authors
I have a Sony Bravia KDF-E50A12U, and I bought a HDMI cable to use with my PS3 and my HD TV. I connected it up correctly and made sure all wires are.
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This is just a copy of the first page of Google.

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I can't get clicked through to most of them, but I will bet dollars to donuts every time it's not the cable that's doing it, it's the sending device or the receiving device and some kind of problem there. You will find many people attributing a ghosting to HDMI, but if it does relate to HDMI, it's not to the cable, it's to the sending or receiving devices in the end.

If you understand how HDMI works, you would understand how come it can't cause ghosting.

It's the same thing as saying "Got a serial ATA drive, copied my documents over and now they all have grammar and spelling errors! SATA sucks! going back go PATA".

If you understand how it works, you realize it's just not possible.
 
@dancardesigner: I've skimmed the first 10 results I found in Google, plus your ones (those that work once copied in) and found that each one concluded that the fault was hardware and not cable....

The PS3 specific issue seemed to be located around the "Full Range RGB" setting being turned off - might be why you had issues previously with the old cable...

Steve

ps Take a good read of the link I provided earlier - Eye Pattern Testing including Monster
 
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I can't get clicked through to most of them, but I will bet dollars to donuts every time it's not the cable that's doing it, it's the sending device or the receiving device and some kind of problem there. You will find many people attributing a ghosting to HDMI, but if it does relate to HDMI, it's not to the cable, it's to the sending or receiving devices in the end.

If you understand how HDMI works, you would understand how come it can't cause ghosting.

It's the same thing as saying "Got a serial ATA drive, copied my documents over and now they all have grammar and spelling errors! SATA sucks! going back go PATA".

If you understand how it works, you realize it's just not possible.

The thing i s you assuming because the signal is 1s and 0s that it's an all or nothing game. It's not. A small proportion of those 1s or 0s may be unreadable or undistinguishable.

I definately without a doubt see better black levels and colour reproduction from my Monster over my other two cables. What requirements they met i don't know.

As for Monoprice they seem to be equally as good as Monster up to about 14 feet i believe, which is why people keep saying there is no difference.

Trouble is most cheap HDMI cables arn't as good as the monoprice ones and don't meet the HDMI 1.3 cat B requirement which both Monster and Monoprice do.

I have only paid £30 for the monster so i don't feel mugged. It's built to a better quality and is more future proof.

It's like saying why buy an F430 over a Z06.Both technically will offer similar performance, but it's in the build quality and complexity where the former shines.

At steve i did read that. Thing is the two articles you posted contradict. In the other article the Monster passes all the tests. In the first article it was merely a technical hiccup, blown out of perspective by someone who felt bitter towards monster. Come on, you really think the best cable on the market couldn't pass the test.
 
For the last time. This:

Is how digital artifacts look like. Taken on my own failing hardware. Pixelization in some areas is an added effect.

You CAN see a difference, but only if your previous cable was HDMI 1.0-1.2, current is 1.3 and your hardware supports it. 1.3 has a higher maximum color depth.
You CANNOT see a difference between two 1.3 cables other than similar to the one I posted.

HDMI 1.4 is already out.
 
At steve i did read that. Thing is the two articles you posted contradict. In the other article the Monster passes all the tests. In the first article it was merely a technical hiccup, blown out of perspective by someone who felt bitter towards monster. Come on, you really think the best cable on the market couldn't pass the test.

The first was more amusement at how the test at the show was poor in the first place. :)

The second article doesn't contradict anything... ALL the cables failed at the show due to Monster having a "technical hiccup". 👎

The tests simply show that pretty much all cables are equal below about 10 foot. It also clearly shows what will happen in the event of a problem - including the lengths he has to go to to generate the faults. Also that the Monster cables over 4 metres (apart from the M1000) also failed Monsters own 120hz theoretical test.

Peace all

Steve

ps - The test equipment used in the review was supplied by Monster - therefore it is the same tests that Monster themselves use!
 
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The thing i s you assuming because the signal is 1s and 0s that it's an all or nothing game. It's not. A small proportion of those 1s or 0s may be unreadable or undistinguishable.

No I totally understand that, look back where I explain how a few missed reads will result in a color dramatically different from the original. When errors reach a certain level the picture is dropped entirely.

10000001 may be red, but then 10100001 (which is only one bit read wrong) could be super bright purple. This is why digital errrors result in different kinds of degradation than analog. People who don't understand how the tech works assume that failures of previous tech happen the same way in current. This is why non of my family understands why when you copy a CD it doesn't get worse sounding every time... because every time they copy an audio tape it degrades.

I am not assuming anything, I know exactly how it works and I understand how each failure could result in a certain type of problem.

The one here who is assuming is you, you are assuming that due to the results you see, the issue lies within a certain part of the system. This is an assumption and the only way to remove the assumption is to either fully understand how the parts work or a double blind test.

I definately without a doubt see better black levels and colour reproduction from my Monster over my other two cables. What requirements they met i don't know.

First off find out all the details, what spec were your old cables, are they different in any way other than just not being monster (I am talking spec wise). Now do a double blind test with your old cables see if it holds up, or only when you have some outside knowledge (ie you swapped the cables).

Again I am not saying you are not seeing a difference, but I AM saying the difference is not from what you are attributing it from (ie Monster cables better quality making a better quality picture).

As for Monoprice they seem to be equally as good as Monster up to about 14 feet i believe, which is why people keep saying there is no difference.

We just did a run at work, ordered 35 ft and 50ft monoprice cables. They are run in a wall with tons of other noisy electronics. Not a sparkle to be seen.

There is definitely a difference, I do believe monsnter cables are better quality, but there will be no real world difference. If I was going 75ft or more I might reconsider but would still not bother with monster. There are better values for higher quality cables.

In reality I think nowadays, even the lower end (not necessarily absolute low end) cables are about on par with the top end ones in real life performance.

Trouble is most cheap HDMI cables arn't as good as the monoprice ones and don't meet the HDMI 1.3 cat B requirement which both Monster and Monoprice do.

It's quite possible they are not as good quality as monoprice, and none of them are probably as good quality as monster (as I covered before) but they probably all carry the data reliably, and even if they didn't, the result would not be blurrines or washed out colors or less deep blacks... it would be sparkles, or no picture.

I have only paid £30 for the monster so i don't feel mugged. It's built to a better quality and is more future proof.

Well how much do good generic cables cost over there? I mean if I bought a lightbulb that normally sells for $200 for $50 I wouldn't feel as ripped off, but if a similar performing lightbulb sold for $5 all the time, I would still be unhappy.

The point here is, if you don't care, then that's fine, but if you do care and want to know, the truth is you got ripped off and bought into worthless marketing. How much you got ripped off for is not the question. I personally hate getting ripped off for any amount even if it's not much. I just don't like being the sucker who bought into the lie.

It's like saying why buy an F430 over a Z06.Both technically will offer similar performance, but it's in the build quality and complexity where the former shines.

Kind of, but if you were to use that anaogy the correct question would be can they both reach 65mph reliably. The answer is yes. Maybe one a little bit snazzire than the other, but when the requirement is to perform 65mph, then they are both equal even if one can actually go 300mph faster than the other. Also with HDMI the only objective is to get the bits from here to there; analogus with the cars would be can they get you from home to work. To say one HDMI cable makes the picture better would be like saying one car gets you there and you come out more tan.

Look Dan, I understand why you don't want to believe this, but if you will actually be objective about this and sit back, you will see that you are making a statements based on what you see and not how the components work. If you could see and understand how they work, you would understand why what you see cannot be caused by what you think it is. This is how magic tricks work, you see something happen, and the most reasonable explanation is it's magic. Once you disect it you realize what the real problem is.

Let me say it again, saying HDMI cables can make a difference in image quality (oustide of a spec increase) similar to analog improvements is like saying:

One brand of CDR has better sound quality than another brand.

When you copy a document file, the grammar gets worse and spelling gest worse. Also the letters are no longer as well aligned and sometimes the text gets fuzzy.

If you know how they work (which I assume you do) you know it's not true.
 
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What is this?

That is one kind of digital distortion. You can see how it's different than analog distortion in the kind of pattern it has.

This is not the only kind of digital distortion, but digital distortion almost always bears a "look" that is different from analog.

Images of traditional hdmi sparkles are hard to come by because... well they sparkle so it's like trying to photograph lightening or a twinkling star.

Here is a decent mockup of what hdmi sparkles look like (obviously imagine there is a picture behind the sparkles and its not normally all black). Each sparkle represents a lost bit of data.

gefen-hdtv-repeater-tv-sparkle-animation.gif


That is the kind of degradation poor cables can result in. Note in the mockup that's a lot of sparkles, much more and the image would probably just drop entirely.

This is a common kind of analog degradation.

ghosting.jpg


There is no absolute difference, but you can get the idea of how they would differ.
 
No I totally understand that, look back where I explain how a few missed reads will result in a color dramatically different from the original. When errors reach a certain level the picture is dropped entirely.

10000001 may be red, but then 10100001 (which is only one bit read wrong) could be super bright purple. This is why digital errrors result in different kinds of degradation than analog. People who don't understand how the tech works assume that failures of previous tech happen the same way in current. This is why non of my family understands why when you copy a CD it doesn't get worse sounding every time... because every time they copy an audio tape it degrades.

I am not assuming anything, I know exactly how it works and I understand how each failure could result in a certain type of problem.

The one here who is assuming is you, you are assuming that due to the results you see, the issue lies within a certain part of the system. This is an assumption and the only way to remove the assumption is to either fully understand how the parts work or a double blind test.



First off find out all the details, what spec were your old cables, are they different in any way other than just not being monster (I am talking spec wise). Now do a double blind test with your old cables see if it holds up, or only when you have some outside knowledge (ie you swapped the cables).



We just did a run at work, ordered 35 ft and 50ft monoprice cables. They are run in a wall with tons of other noisy electronics. Not a sparkle to be seen.



It's quite possible they are not as good quality as monoprice, and none of them are probably as good quality as monster (as I covered before) but they probably all carry the data reliably, and even if they didn't, the result would not be blurrines or washed out colors or less deep blacks... it would be sparkles, or no picture.



Well how much do good generic cables cost over there? I mean if I bought a lightbulb that normally sells for $200 for $50 I wouldn't feel as ripped off, but if a similar performing lightbulb sold for $5 all the time, I would still be unhappy.

The point here is, if you don't care, then that's fine, but if you do care and want to know, the truth is you got ripped off and bought into worthless marketing. How much you got ripped off for is not the question. I personally hate getting ripped off for any amount even if it's not much. I just don't like being the sucker who bought into the lie.



Kind of, but if you were to use that anaogy the correct question would be can they both reach 65mph reliably. The answer is yes. Maybe one a little bit snazzire than the other, but when the requirement is to perform 65mph, then they are both equal even if one can actually go 300mph faster than the other. Also with HDMI the only objective is to get the bits from here to there; analogus with the cars would be can they get you from home to work. To say one HDMI cable makes the picture better would be like saying one car gets you there and you come out more tan.

Look Dan, I understand why you don't want to believe this, but if you will actually be objective about this and sit back, you will see that you are making a statements based on what you see and not how the components work. If you could see and understand how they work, you would understand why what you see cannot be caused by what you think it is.

Let me say it again, saying HDMI cables can make a difference in image quality (oustide of a spec increase) similar to analog improvements is like saying:

One brand of CDR has better sound quality than another brand.

When you copy a document file, the grammar gets worse and spelling gest worse. Also the letters are no longer as well aligned and sometimes the text gets fuzzy.

If you know how they work (which I assume you do) you know it's not true.


It doesn't matter what you say, should happen, it's what i see that matters. I am not delusional, what i see is there.

Assuming you are not some cable expert, most of your knowledge will be from what you have read on the internet.

From what you have read, it may not sound possible what i describe, but there is probably many other factors, that you have yet to discover or learn other than the basic fundamentals.

Digital information can degrade, although by different means to analogue.
JPG images degrade over time from constant copying, and they are a digital format.

What i see, is obviously what is. What you tell me should happen is irrelevent, because it does not go with what i see.
Like i said, i'm sure there is more to this then you have learnt. I mean it affects cables of longer distances, so why not short. Yes in a shorter cable most people probably won't notice it, but i do in comparison to my other cables. Digital can produce noise, and noise is what creates the fuzzy pixels. The image is ever so slightly clearer with a monster, though not really noticeable unless you look at the pixels up close to the screen.

Chances are my older cables were 1.1 and 1.2 respectively. So obviously in comparison to them the monster will look better. Youa ll keep trying to say i see no difference.

Who's to say my old cables wern't 1.3, they probably wern't which is why i see a beetr picture.

When the monster cable was first introduced it could probably meet 1.3 before 1.3 was even a standard. My monster might even meet the requirements for a future 1.4. In which case the cable was worth it.

The weired thing is though that the current gen PS3 is only HDMI 1.2 capable, so if my second mid range cable was 1.2 by your theory i shouldn't see a difference, but i did. I know my first crap cable from Game was hdmi 1.1, so for the second cable to appear better, which it did, it would have to be 1.2, to which the PS3 is only capable to support. So therefore the moster and the second mid range cable i bought should look the same on PS3, but the thing is this isn't the case.

Look at this, he doesn't mention colour degradation or any of the improvements i saw, but he does explain why there is more to this than meets the eye.

Doesn't seem to be showing, heres the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-zbIBERGk4&feature=related
 
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Digital information can degrade, although by different means to analogue.
JPG images degrade over time from constant copying, and they are a digital format.
Perfect example to dis-prove your case. JPeg is a compressed format - each time it is opened and saved it is re-compressed, therefore loses data.

Digital information itself can only be affected by data loss - look on the web for jpg images with data loss - you'll see blocks or pixels of data missing (normally at the end), no image change (such as blurring, ghosting etc) other than colour blocking caused by the compression algorithm...

Who's to say my old cables wern't 1.3, they probably wern't which is why i see a beetr picture.
1.1 cables could cause data loss due to the lack of bandwidth (pixel or block loss), but using a 1.3 cable on a 1.2 system would not improve the image over a 1.2. More data can flow, but unless the system is capable of pushing that data (full 1.3) then it simply won't change.

Look at this, he doesn't mention colour degradtion or any of the improvements i saw, but he does explain why there is more to this than meets the eye.
Monster pushing their own stuff again. :indiff: Highlighted the important bit above...

Yes, data can get corrupted and lost, but this will result in blocks or discoloured pixels (often seen as flashing) and NOT ghosting/blurring - that's why they don't mention it.

Should this thread go to the electronics forum? We're not talking about GT5 anymore, just the HDMI cables.
Agreed - definitely gone seriously off-topic for the GT5 forum.

Off to bed. Play nice all :)

Steve
 
Perfect example to dis-prove your case. JPeg is a compressed format - each time it is opened and saved it is re-compressed, therefore loses data.

Digital information itself can only be affected by data loss - look on the web for jpg images with data loss - you'll see blocks or pixels of data missing (normally at the end), no image change (such as blurring, ghosting etc) other than colour blocking caused by the compression algorithm...


1.1 cables could cause data loss due to the lack of bandwidth (pixel or block loss), but using a 1.3 cable on a 1.2 system would not improve the image over a 1.2. More data can flow, but unless the system is capable of pushing that data (full 1.3) then it simply won't change.


Monster pushing their own stuff again. :indiff: Highlighted the important bit above...

Yes, data can get corrupted and lost, but this will result in blocks or discoloured pixels (often seen as flashing) and NOT ghosting/blurring - that's why they don't mention it.


Agreed - definitely gone seriously off-topic for the GT5 forum.

Off to bed. Play nice all :)

Steve


It seems like you assume each pixel is represented by a 1 or a zero and thats' it, it's either on or off.

Each pixel will consist of a number of 1s and zeros all contributing to the finished output. Say some of the data is out of sync, then the end result will not be of the same proportions of what went in. So say for example there are a number of 1s and 0s that contribute to the HUE of the pixel, that will change, if the proportions of the data are different at the other end.
Same for brightness and so on.
Did you not here him say how sound can be of ''reduced quality'', the same applys to image data. It's no different when it's in the cable as far as physics are concerned.
 
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