- 536
- MaDKaT
It was an 8' M1000. He paid like $200 for it. The cables I use are 15' gold plated cables from monoprice. Think they cost me like $10 shipped a piece.
Input lag
- Thread starter dancardesigner
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It was an 8' M1000. He paid like $200 for it. The cables I use are 15' gold plated cables from monoprice. Think they cost me like $10 shipped a piece.
dancardesigner
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- dancardesigner
the Interceptor
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- theInterceptor77
You are aware that the only technical reason connectors are plated with gold is to prevent them from corroding? A gold-plating doesn't improve the signal transfer though a cable in any way.
dancardesigner
(Banned)
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- dancardesigner
You are aware that the only technical reason connectors are plated with gold is to prevent them from corroding? A gold-plating doesn't improve the signal transfer though a cable in any way.
No, but i was using it is a reference to the quality of the cable. The cheapest of cables arn't even plated and don't have sufficient bandwidth for full 1080p in all it's glory.
the Interceptor
Premium
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- theInterceptor77
So say I design cheap cables and have the connectors gold-plated, can I claim my cable is high quality? The Chinese (no offense to be taken) will gold-plate everything you give them for no money nowadays. Gold-plating doesn't mean anything anymore, given it ever did.
- 4,323
Dan hate to say it, any improvement you saw was either becuase your old cable was TOTAL crap, or just imagined.
A few things to consider:
Future proof only exists as long as the connection type does. Move on to some new connection type (which does happen fairly regularly) and future proof goes out the window.
HDMI is a non error correcting digital standard. This means data either gets there or it doesn't. There is no such thing as a "blurry" or "washed out" result from a poor quality cable. The result is dropped data that manifests in either "sparkles" (ie pixels of white or gray due to lost data) or complete dropping of the image.
You CANNOT improve image quality over HDMI in the was you are talking about. Anything you see is purely imagined and would cease to exist in a solid double blind test. I assure you this. I don't even have to see your setup, I know the fundamentals of how the format works and what is not possible.
As for gold plated... that's more or less a scam too. The theory behind gold plating is that gold conducts better than other metals, so using gold improves conductivity. This falls apart when you realize the cable is not gold end to end and thus whatever "not good conducting metal" the gold covers is still in there somewhere. Electrical conductivity is a chain as strong as it's weakest link.
And again, gold plating does not improve image quality over HDMI - nothing does. With HDMI the pixels either get there or they don't, there is no such thing as a lower quality image outside of sparkles or totally missing image.
$30 shipped overseas is not as bad as $150, but there is still no performance factor that justifies the price. The only reason I ever buy monster is when the aesthetics are of value or they just have the most convenient connector. Sometimes a monster cable has just the right head on it or just the right color for the setup and then I go for it, but again, there is no justification in quality of result to buy monster.
The only improvement in image quality (again other than sparkles or no image at all) will be imagined. No the placebo effect can be very strong, so if you spend $$$ and you are happy because it looks better to you (even though it isn't really) who's to say it was a bad buy? But I assure you, there is no performance to buy monster over any decent quality generic cable. The science behind how they works says so, double blind tests say so... the only ones who don't say so are Monster and Monsters marketing dept, and people who use them and do no scientific double blind test to be sure they aren't imagining an improvement.
A few things to consider:
Future proof only exists as long as the connection type does. Move on to some new connection type (which does happen fairly regularly) and future proof goes out the window.
HDMI is a non error correcting digital standard. This means data either gets there or it doesn't. There is no such thing as a "blurry" or "washed out" result from a poor quality cable. The result is dropped data that manifests in either "sparkles" (ie pixels of white or gray due to lost data) or complete dropping of the image.
You CANNOT improve image quality over HDMI in the was you are talking about. Anything you see is purely imagined and would cease to exist in a solid double blind test. I assure you this. I don't even have to see your setup, I know the fundamentals of how the format works and what is not possible.
As for gold plated... that's more or less a scam too. The theory behind gold plating is that gold conducts better than other metals, so using gold improves conductivity. This falls apart when you realize the cable is not gold end to end and thus whatever "not good conducting metal" the gold covers is still in there somewhere. Electrical conductivity is a chain as strong as it's weakest link.
And again, gold plating does not improve image quality over HDMI - nothing does. With HDMI the pixels either get there or they don't, there is no such thing as a lower quality image outside of sparkles or totally missing image.
$30 shipped overseas is not as bad as $150, but there is still no performance factor that justifies the price. The only reason I ever buy monster is when the aesthetics are of value or they just have the most convenient connector. Sometimes a monster cable has just the right head on it or just the right color for the setup and then I go for it, but again, there is no justification in quality of result to buy monster.
The only improvement in image quality (again other than sparkles or no image at all) will be imagined. No the placebo effect can be very strong, so if you spend $$$ and you are happy because it looks better to you (even though it isn't really) who's to say it was a bad buy? But I assure you, there is no performance to buy monster over any decent quality generic cable. The science behind how they works says so, double blind tests say so... the only ones who don't say so are Monster and Monsters marketing dept, and people who use them and do no scientific double blind test to be sure they aren't imagining an improvement.
dancardesigner
(Banned)
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- dancardesigner
Note i said the ''Cheapest'', not cheap or average. I just wanted to know what bracket of price point and quality these monoprice cables are in.
Anyways, i notice the difference, just like i notice the input lag. If you lot don't and want to continue calling me a lyer (this is not just applying to you by the way Interceptor) then fair enough. I can sit here all smug knowing the fact i am in fact correct, and you are all in denial.
Don't get me wrong i don't mind if you say you can't see these things, it's only your oppinion and belief which you are entitled to. But to say i am wrong or a lyer not in so many words, i will not have. Peole keep saying i'm making it appear that i think everyone else is stupid for not seeing these things, no i'm not, you may not be able to see it, what annoys me is people saying i can't see it.
Put it this way. Not seeing something does not mean it doesn't exist, but seeing something does mean it exists.
This aint placebo Devedander, the blacks are much deeper, and the colours more vibrant. You may know the fundamentals, but there is more to this then appears on the outset. Why do you think HDMI 1.3 brought gains over HDMI 1.2, it's the same connector?
the Interceptor
Premium
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- theInterceptor77
Well, since pretty much any HDMI cable you can buy has gold-plated connectors by now (since the industry has noticed that it works very well in terms of marketing), it is in no way a sign of quality anymore.
I never called you a liar. In fact, I actually agreed with you that in the video you initially posted, there is visible input lag. Thus, I'd like you to refrain from claiming I called you a liar.
- 753
- Stoke-on-Trent
- Dorontic
- KinetiClutch
my friend who happens to pretty retarded , bought an expensive cable thinking it would make a difference (notice the similarity?) untill i told him and took my 'cheap' cable around, and there was no visible difference.
Waste your parents cash on these next time http://www.locateadoc.com/pictures/cosmetic-surgery/male-pectoral-implants.html
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- Maggot666PL
Yes, I do call you a liar. Although you're merely lying to yourself...
It made a difference for McL F1's engine bay
Listen to Devedander, he speaks the truth.
It can also mean you're a schizophrenic...
dancardesigner
(Banned)
- 822
- dancardesigner
I don't need them i'm already pretty buff thanks.
All you do is keep trolling.
Again just because you didn't see a difference on your setup does not mean i don't see a difference on mine.
At Maggott, do you have one?
If not then you have no ground from which to speak. Read all the reviews you want, the reviewers are probably like you. Anyway some reviews i've seen do claim a difference
To say i'm imaganing it, when it is very noticable not just subtle is completly retarded.
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- 216
- Maggot666PL
Schizophrenia? Dunno, never got diagnosed.
You know, if pretty much ALL the reviewers say the same thing, and at least SOME of them DO know what they're talking about, I would've thought that it means something... But I'm through, seems like you're not going to check the solutions for you "input lag", you're pointlessly arguing with everybody, again.
dancardesigner
(Banned)
- 822
- dancardesigner
- 4,323
Dan do you have a link to an HDMI cable that won't do 1080p? I am not saying I dont' believe you, I just don't recall ever seeing one. I know that to do HDMI 1.3+ some cables need more bandwidth, but that's the only time I have seen a cable with specific performance requirements.
BTW plated has nothing to do with bandwidth... again it's the twisted copper wires inside, the crosstalk, the interference etc there that determines how much data can be crammed through reliably.
BTW monoprice.com. It's where people who know (stateside that is) go to get cables at a fair price. Ask anyone at avsforum.com (quite possibly the biggest collection of AV nerds in the world - we are talking people who build rooms twice the cost of my whole house to listen to music) monoprice gets a big thumbs up all the time, monster and bose (the marketing hype geniouses, which btw I have to give them credit, they are truly awesome at marketing) regularly get picked apart... and for good reason.
If you got deeper blacks and deep color, (does anything even put out 10bit deep color yet?) it's not because you went monster, its' because you went HDMI 1.1 to HDMI 1.3 or something. An HDMI 1.3b Monorpice cable will yield the same result over normal runs as a Monster HDMI 1.3b cable. Now a Monster HDMI1.3b cable might give you better results (if your hardware supports it) than a Monoprice HDMI 1.1 cable, but then the opposite would be true also...
Dan I hate to say it but Monster cables are just not offering you performance value... I believe you see an improvement, but it's for one of two reasons:
1: You upgraded to a higher HDMI standard that allowed you to take advantage of your hardware at the same time you went monster and so you do really have an improvement but not because of why you think you do. (or some other piece of hardware changed at the same time, but you get the idea).
2: You are imagining the difference. This could probably be proved by a double blind test (get some decent HDMI cable - I am sorry I don't know who is the equivalent of monoprice on your side of the pond but avsforum I am sure can help you out) then have someone repeated randomly swap cables with you out of the room. Go in, check the quality and guess which one it is. As long as the test really is double blind, you will not be able to tell the difference (this is of course assuming the cable is good enough to not make sparkles or drop the image entireyl, I am talking color saturation and sharpness).
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- 753
- Stoke-on-Trent
- Dorontic
- KinetiClutch
this thread kinda proved lieing isnt a strong point for you 👍
dancardesigner
(Banned)
- 822
- dancardesigner
It's not the cheapest ones can't produce the picture in 1080p, but it does not meat the bandwidth requirements for true 1080p, which is around 5gb/s believe, don't quote me on that one though. I 'll see if i can dig it up, but it was about a year ago i saw it.
At Kinetic, i'm not even gonna bother with you any more, everything you have said has being retarded. Say what you like , i'll just ignore it.
- 536
- MaDKaT
Actually all it means for that cable is that it was only tested at that standard and then put on the market with those specs. Really has little to do with the cables true capabilities. In the end if its not sufficient you will see it with pixelation and not with color depth or richness.
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- NY
- Liquizon
NO offense..
But i just logged into the GTplanet forums to see whats new and this is complete garbage.
Anyone who 1) watched the video enough times or 2) is worried about some "illusionary" input lag should stay off the computer for several weeks.
GT5
is fine and GT5 will be similar. I feel bad for the people that really invested lots of time into this thread. Talk about something more exciting.
peace.
But i just logged into the GTplanet forums to see whats new and this is complete garbage.
Anyone who 1) watched the video enough times or 2) is worried about some "illusionary" input lag should stay off the computer for several weeks.
GT5
is fine and GT5 will be similar. I feel bad for the people that really invested lots of time into this thread. Talk about something more exciting.peace.
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dancardesigner
(Banned)
- 822
- dancardesigner
Funny you should say that. As you say a better cable produces better colour richness and depth. That is exactly what the Monster cable does. Especially the black levels.
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Interesting... well I don't really know what the GB requirements were... but I would think possibly they weren't tested to higher speeds before higher speed HDMI came out maybe? I know component is not spcified to 1080p, but it can go far past that. The only reason it's not certified to carry 1080p is that when the component standard was finalized, there was no final standard for 1080p so it had to be left out. It's one of those "can do it, but timing stopped us from saying we can do it" things. Maybe the same with these HDMI cables?
All I remember is that when HDMI first came around, there was a big flurry of Best Buy guys telling people that "You can't get hi def without HDMI, component can't do 1080p, only HDMI can!". Which was a bold face lie, but that's what makes me wonder becuase it seems to me that since the get go HDMI's selling point has been 1080p.
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- MaDKaT
You dont understand. Better color depth and richness isnt affected by the cable only the standard on the source and end device(1.1 -1.3a,b,c etc..). The cable is going to either carry the data or its not. If it doesnt you will see pixelation or sparkling.
dancardesigner
(Banned)
- 822
- dancardesigner
What you and a lot of people seem to keep missing is that i am not saying crap cables can't produce a picture or 1080p. But there is a lot of subtle differences that are only possible on hiugher end cables. Yes it's digital and there is supposed to be no loss of data yada yada yada, but there really is more to it then that. As they say the proof is in the pudding, and i actually own one of these cables and can clearly see the difference.
There is the whole issue of eye pattern size and other technical jargon.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
Just to add my log to the fire, as someone who's looked into the whole cable technology thing for a decade now, cables do make a difference. But the biggest difference is in analog signals, like audio and video.
Digital bandwidth and signal integrity does require better cable, but what you need to look for are the gauge of the wires - 28ga is thinner than 24ga and less reliable - and how well it's shielded. It's incredibly hard to find an HDMI cable these days which isn't gold plated. You need those thicker cables to get the least loss and interference, but that does make the cables a bear to bend most of the time, so get at least 6 feet and make sure you have room for it. Bandwidth is especially important if you're using lossless multichannel audio in a home theater setup. This is where quality cable matters the most. And make sure it doesn't run across electrical or speaker wires.
But one thing about Monster - don't buy it. All Monster cable is overpriced. You can buy boutique cables for less, and Monoprice and Dayton cables of the same quality for a fraction the price of Monster.
Monoprice 6ft silver plated copper HDMI 1.3a - $12.60 for one
Digital bandwidth and signal integrity does require better cable, but what you need to look for are the gauge of the wires - 28ga is thinner than 24ga and less reliable - and how well it's shielded. It's incredibly hard to find an HDMI cable these days which isn't gold plated. You need those thicker cables to get the least loss and interference, but that does make the cables a bear to bend most of the time, so get at least 6 feet and make sure you have room for it. Bandwidth is especially important if you're using lossless multichannel audio in a home theater setup. This is where quality cable matters the most. And make sure it doesn't run across electrical or speaker wires.
But one thing about Monster - don't buy it. All Monster cable is overpriced. You can buy boutique cables for less, and Monoprice and Dayton cables of the same quality for a fraction the price of Monster.
Monoprice 6ft silver plated copper HDMI 1.3a - $12.60 for one
- 536
- MaDKaT
Actually it really is that simple. Its digital. Its just 1's and 0's and when the data doesnt get to the end point its not subtle. This isnt like the analog days were a quality cable could provide increased clarity.
dancardesigner
(Banned)
- 822
- dancardesigner
Looking at them monoprice cables, maybe there is no difference to Monster. I have never used a monoprice cable, but i have used a £30 gold plated, shielded and braded cable and the monster is better for sure.
Them monoprice cables don't seem like the regular cheap crap, they are just priced low.
They meet the category 2 HDMI 1.3 test, a lot of cheaper cables do not meet this requirement, especially below HDMI 1.3
- 4,323
I am not missing it... I just understand what is possible and isn't and what you are saying isn't (for the reasons you are saying at least).
Here is the skinny:
HDMI is a non error correcting digital format. Every pixel is sent over with data defining it's color, luminence etc.
That info either makes it or it doesn't.
If for any reason the data for a pixel doesn't make it across intact, it is just displayed as sparkle on screen (I believe it just shows up as white).
There is no room for better or worse. Every pixel sent either makes it intact, or is completely thrown out. You can't get a pixel that is a washed out red instead of vibrant red. You can't get a pixel that is blurry...
Saying HDMI cables can make a picture better (outside of stepping up the HDMI standard like from 1.1 to 1.3) is like saying a different brand of CDR makes my music have a fuller bass, more developed mids and the highs are sharper. Can't happen....
Now I have heard plenty of people say that a certain brand CDR (which was maybe marketed as a MUSIC CDR or something - anyone remember MUSIC CDRs that met orange book standards? What about the ones with a picture of a record on top?) made their MP3s sound better. Would you believe it? I think not because you know how it works... but they swear that it does.
Same thing for those gold plated optical cables (which Monster got smart and stopped selling). The was no shortage of glowing reviews! Now tell me, do you think gold plating an optical cable really made a difference, or do you think those people who kept saying "don't believe the nay sayers, you have to hear it and you will believe!" were maybe just imaginging the improvement.
Again I am sorry Dan, what you say isn't possible. You may indeed have an improved picture, but it's not because of what you think it is. Just like some of those otpical cable reviews mentioned that "It's way better than the RCA cables I used to use, so gold plated optical is totally the way to go!"... I bet it WAS way better than their 2 channel Dolby Surround RCA setup... but not for the reason they thought it was... because they reason they thought it was (gold plating an optical cable makes the sound better" was not possible.
Trust me Dan, do a true double blind setup:
Get your setup all done up so you can't see the cabling to tip you off.
Get a monster and a decent generic cable.
Leave the room and have a friend roll a dice, if it's even use monoprice, if it's odd use monster.
Have him swap the cables accordingly and then leave the room where you can't see him (have him use the same HDMI port on the TV and on the sending equipment, probably not necessary but best to keep it totally honest). You don't want to be able to see him because it's entirely possible he will subconciously give off some signal as to what happened.
You go in and examine the picture, mark down which cable you think it is.
Do this a decent number of times (20 or so maybe).
If you did everything right and it was a true double blind, I garauntee you will not be able to call the monster cable by picture quality alone.
Trust me on this one Dan... it's normal to want to believe, it's normal to see value because you paid for it, and it's normal to attribute an improvement to the wrong thing... but it's impossible for two same standard HDMI cables to produce different pictures in terms of color accuracy or sharpness in a controlled environment.
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dancardesigner
(Banned)
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- dancardesigner
You are looking at this from it's simplest point of view, there is more to it then that.
Look
When you look on the packaging of an HDMI cable, you’ll see lots of specifications and statements explaining why that particular model is the best HDMI cable for you. Almost every HDMI cable on the market makes the claim that it has 1080p compatability, has a 4.46 Gigabits Per Second transfer or is HDMI 1.3 compatible. These are all hot buzz words in the HDMI world. But we can’t judge the quality of HDMI cables on statements and claims alone. Since the data carried by HDMI cables is digital, it can be tested and allows us to truly see how good an HDMI cable is. The easiest and best way to judge the quality of an HDMI cable is to run it through the Eye Pattern Test.
Eye Pattern Test for HDMI Cables
The Eye Pattern Test uses two pieces of expensive machinery that measure electrical parameters like attenuation, impedance, crosstalk and EM/RF Interference. The Eye Pattern Test Machinery works together by generating a digital signal then reading the data and showing on-screen results of how well the HDMI cable performed. The way to tell if an HDMI cable passes the Eye Pattern Test is to see if the digital wave carried by the cable crosses into a small hexagon shaped eye (or mask) in the middle of the screen. The eye represents how much space separates the 1’s and 0’s in the digital signal to ensure they don’t cross. The more space around the eye the better the signal and a less chance that the 1’s and 0’s in the signal have of getting mixed together. When there isn’t any space in the eye of the signal errors can occur due to the fact that the display (TV) can’t determine whether it’s reading a 1 or a 0. These errors then become visible in your TV picture in the form of color misrepresentation, digitization of the picture and in extreme cases no picture at all.
Monster HDMI Cable Eye Pattern Test Result
The Eye Pattern Test is the scientific proof that Monster HDMI cables are far superior to any HDMI cable on the market. When Monster HDMI cables are put through the Eye Pattern Test, they show a very symmetrical digital signal with ample room around the eye which gives very small room for error. The screen shots in the picture above show the results of a Monster HDMI cable compared to a Generic HDMI cable that can be found in the box of an HD Satellite or Blu-Ray Disc player.
Monster also tests their cables at bandwidth speeds that go beyond the 1080p signals of today to ensure that they will work with future technology. Many other manufacturers only test their cables at the 720p/1080i spec that have much slower data rates. This results in some HDMI cables not being able to transfer a 1080p signal.
The Consequences of Going the Cheap Route
Not all HDMI cables are created equally although many people will say otherwise. Just because HDMI cables all carry digital signals made up of 1’s and 0’s doesn’t mean they will all produce a high quality picture! Cheaper cables are not as carefully constructed and typically don’t have enough shielding to reject outside interference. Poorly constructed ends are another contributor in degrading the digital signal. Signal degradation will show up as streaks across the screen, unsynced audio and video, snow, dropped pixels or even total picture drop. A cheap cable is going to get the signal from point A to point B, but the real question is whether the signal at point B can be recognized. Cables without shielding have a much greater problem with signal interference, especially over long distances. High signal interference will make 1’s and 0’s indecipherable at the display end.
Differences in the quality of the HDMI cables are not going to be nearly as noticeable when watching a standard DVD (480p). But once you get into higher resolutions (720p/1080i and higher) the signal degradation gets more noticeable even to the untrained consumer’s eye.
Length Makes a Difference
Another important factor in HDMI signal quality is length. Keep in mind that the same cable that passes the eye pattern test at a 3 foot length might not pass at a 10 foot length. A poorly constructed cable will not be able to hold to the proper impedance rating necessary to run over longer lengths which cause errors in the picture. This occurs when the conductors in the cable are twisted. Monster Cable uses a very tight DoubleHelix construction that allows for a greater bandwidth over longer runs of HDMI.
The Eye Pattern Test proves that a cheap, knockoff HDMI cable is not as good as a Monster HDMI cable. Monster HDMI cables are the best investment in the HDMI market today because they give you longevity, extreme durability and unequaled performance. Monster tests their cables under the most rigorous conditions to make sure that their HDMI cables will give you the best possible results regardless of what component they are connected to.
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For the short runs, generic HDMI cables are fine and pretty much identical to the higher end cables as far as your video quality goes. For long runs however (home theater setup when you are running 30-150 foot runs of HDMI, the better quality HDMI cables actually do better. When I was doing electrical and home theater setup, we started with generic HDMI for long runs and the signal puked out. Once we switched to a better quality cable, the distance didn't make a difference. Quality was the same.
For 99.9% of the public though, go with the cheapo HDMI for your little entertainment center.
For 99.9% of the public though, go with the cheapo HDMI for your little entertainment center.
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