Input lag

[dancardesigner]

Fair enough. Now do the same with RFactor

Mate if you do the test at home with prologue, and again on pc with Rfactor, GTR etc you will deffo notice it. Not to mention save me a lot of work.

 

[bergauk]

Fair enough. Now do the same with RFactor



We've already had that. Believe me, we've already had that.

I thought that was unrealistic looking trees. Who stares are trees in a racing game?

 

[dancardesigner]

Judging on position of "Manettino" dial on DFGT - see pic below - the wheel on picture you're usng as evidence is also turned to the right.

Sorry

No amar it is definately not, watch the video in slow motion if you can by downloading it
Why won't people just do the test at home instead of contradicting the truth

 

[Famine]

Mate if you do the test at home with prologue, and again on pc with Rfactor, GTR etc you will deffo notice it. Not to mention save me a lot of work.

That's how it works - you make the claim, you provide the evidence.

Besides, I don't have RFactor or GTR.

 

[Tenacious D]

I noticed it too, but I also noticed there were no tire marks yet, and the shadows on the car look a bit strobed. However, the game also isn't released yet, so I wouldn't get too worked up.

 

[dancardesigner]

That's how it works - you make the claim, you provide the evidence.

Besides, I don't have RFactor or GTR.

I would but i don't have access to a camera right now, if you don't want to beleive fair enough. Maybe someone else can show you what i mean.
Edit: Most people here don't seem to realise that input lag is nothing to do with GT5 but rather the TV itself, this is inevitable on consoles, however the PC does not suffer the same fait.

 

[Watevaman]

There may be a little delay, but if you're complaining about something that a majority of people don't even seem to be noticing, you may want to just learn to live with it.

 

[C-ZETA]

Excuse my knowledge, but when did they last update the DFGT again?

 

[dancardesigner]

There may be a little delay, but if you're complaining about something that a majority of people don't even seem to be noticing, you may want to just learn to live with it.

You notice it when you make sudden fast turns of the wheel, or you want to catch a slide etc... Hence why it always feels like you are having to make predictions in GT5 of the cars movement when in real life you just react there and then.

 

[Nomino]

OK, I've watched that video plenty of times now, slowed right down too, and have the following observations to make:

- If you want to be pedantic about it, lag can be measured to billionths of a second and less, so yes, there will ALWAYS be lag if you want to look close enough.
- When the two wheels are at or near centre, slow/small movements are replicated with insignificant lag. They both leave center at the same time, and the physical/virtual wheels are at 1:1 with each other in terms of movement/animation.
- Let's say the virtual wheel can only manage 180 degrees of movement in terms of animation - 90 each way from centre. At about 7 seconds, the guy turns the wheel sharply to the right, way more than 90 degrees from centre. For arguments sake, let's say that he turns the wheel 270 degress from centre. Even if he had turned the wheel 630 degrees from centre, the wheel animation would not have moved any more than it did. Now, he soon whips the wheel back around. The animation on screen is not going to move until the physical wheel has turned 180 degrees, so you observe an apparent "lag" between the guy moving the wheel and the animation moving. However, the two wheels approach centre at the same time.

I suppose the important thing is that regardless of how the physical wheel and animated wheel line up in terms of movement, the car responds to the physical wheel movement precisely.

 

[dancardesigner]

OK, I've watched that video plenty of times now, slowed right down too, and have the following observations to make:

- If you want to be pedantic about it, lag can be measured to billionths of a second and less, so yes, there will ALWAYS be lag if you want to look close enough.
- When the two wheels are at or near centre, slow/small movements are replicated with insignificant lag. They both leave center at the same time, and the physical/virtual wheels are at 1:1 with each other in terms of movement/animation.
- Let's say the virtual wheel can only manage 180 degrees of movement in terms of animation - 90 each way from centre. At about 7 seconds, the guy turns the wheel sharply to the right, way more than 90 degrees from centre. For arguments sake, let's say that he turns the wheel 270 degress from centre. Even if he had turned the wheel 630 degrees from centre, the wheel animation would not have moved at all. Now, he soon whips the wheel back around. The animation on screen is not going to move until the physical wheel has turned 180 degrees, so you observe an apparent "lag" between the guy moving the wheel and the animation moving. However, the two wheels approach centre at the same time.

I suppose the important thing is that regardless of how the physical wheel and animated wheel line up in terms of movement, the car responds to the physical wheel movement precisely.

You are so so wrong, just do the test with prologue and a PC sim if you have any, and turn the wheel fast to the right or left and watch the difference in response times, when you make sudden fast turns is where all this becomes noticably apparent. Until people do the test at home i refuse to argue with the nay sayers any further.

 

[d3br34k5]

Unless you provide video evidence of you doing your test, I'm calling complete shenanigans on your methodology and writing off your findings as completely flawed.

See what I did there?

 

[dancardesigner]

Ignoring the person above here is another example of the causes for lag on PS3, although this has nothing to do with a wheel but makes me wonder if the lag is down to how fast the PS3 processes the information.

See what i did there?



Edit: Also a test show HDTV responds slower to CRT

 

[Nomino]

You are so so wrong, just do the test with prologue and a PC sim if you have any, and turn the wheel fast to the right or left and watch the difference in response times, when you make sudden fast turns is where all this becomes noticably apparent. Until people do the test at home i refuse to argue with the nay sayers any further.

So, you are admitting that it's not just GT5 that has this "problem", it's prologue and all other sims out there. If so, what are you crying about? Not only that, since when do you drive the on-screen car by looking at the position of the virtual steering wheel? When you turn the physical wheel, the car responds in-game, that's all that matters. I play in bumper-cam mode most of the time anyway, so how the on-screen wheel behaves is a total non-issue anyway.

I'm not doing any "testing" because for one, I can't, and if I did, it would not be representative of your setup, so I'd get different results that I'm sure you'd argue against anyway, because clearly that's all you like doing. Whatever you are seeing might upset you, but the rest of us can get on with the rest of our lives quite happily.

Life is all about perception, so by definition, I am right and you are wrong. If you think you are right and I am wrong, we can't both be right AND wrong, so it really is an insignificant debate. Get over it.

 

[dancardesigner]

So, you are admitting that it's not just GT5 that has this "problem", it's prologue and all other sims out there. If so, what are you crying about? Not only that, since when do you drive the on-screen car by looking at the position of the virtual steering wheel? When you turn the physical wheel, the car responds in-game, that's all that matters. I play in bumper-cam mode most of the time anyway, so how the on-screen wheel behaves is a total non-issue anyway.

I'm not doing any "testing" because for one, I can't, and if I did, it would not be representative of your setup, so I'd get different results that I'm sure you'd argue against anyway, because clearly that all you like doing. Whatever you are seeing might upset you, but the rest of us can get on with the rest of our lives quite happily.

I'm sure you could find the same on FPS games where you whip the sticks around quickly, the on-screen animation appears to lag slightly. So what?

No it does not only apply to prologue or GT5. But it does mainly apply to consoles. If you read my first post again you will see that what i was getting at was how this can be overcome, and what affect do people think it has on feeling connected with the car.

What do you mean it's all i like doing, your the one who posted in my thread disagreeing when i am in fact right.

 

[Nomino]

As long as the car responds on-screen, I fail to see how relevant it is as to how the animated wheel moves.

 

[dancardesigner]

As long as the car responds on-screen, I fail to see how relevant it is as to how the animated wheel moves.

Because the point is, it is not a delay in the animation of the wheel but rather a delay of the whole display itself.

 

[Strittan]

What I'm concerned about, is that the driver in game still only turns the wheel 180 degrees, while in both GT4 and GTHD the driver turned the wheel 900 degrees.

So far I'm only using the Sixaxis controller, but if I'd use a 900 degree wheel I think I would be distracted by the lack of movement on the in game wheel. Do you think they'll fix this?

 

[Kinetic]

Even in prologue when im using my 900 degree wheel i dont get distracted by the movement in game tbh

 

[Timppaq]

^Basically this is what we need, instead we have this:



but for sure the animations will have the full 900deg. turning in the final product.. hopefully then it'll be less distracting.


edit,

 

[dancardesigner]

What I'm concerned about, is that the driver in game still only turns the wheel 180 degrees, while in both GT4 and GTHD the driver turned the wheel 900 degrees.

So far I'm only using the Sixaxis controller, but if I'd use a 900 degree wheel I think I would be distracted by the lack of movement on the in game wheel. Do you think they'll fix this?

Trouble is different cars have different degrees of rotation in real life, Like an F1 wont have 900 degreees rotation. What PD need to do is make the degrees of rotation of the wheel asjustable, and also get the degrees of rotation for each car animated correctly in game.
However this is not related to my lag problem.

 

[dancardesigner]

^Basically this is what we need, instead we have this:



but for sure the animations will have the full 900deg. turning in the final product.. hopefully then it'll be less distracting.

OMG, you legend, you just covered both topics in the same vid. Notice both the input lag and also the degree of rotation issue Strittan brought up.

You have killed two birds with one stone +1:tup:

 

[Nomino]

OMG, you legend, you just covered both topics in the same vid. Notice both the input lag and also the degree of rotation issue Strittan brought up.

You have killed two birds with one stone +1:tup:

Ummm, you have clearly lost the plot. I just watched that video of Prologue. Yes, I can see the animated wheel does not match the rapid movements of the physical wheel. However, the car on screen is responding accordingly and does not "lag" like you say.

 

[dancardesigner]

Ummm, you have clearly lost the plot. I just watched that video of Prologue. Yes, I can see the animated wheel does not match the rapid movements of the physical wheel. However, the car on screen is responding accordingly and does not "lag" like you say.

Yes it does, it is just a lot harder to notice. It has to because the whole problem is related to screen delay not animation delay. You my friend have lost the plot.

 

[aspect8]

I can see some slight lag here, but nothing worse than most other games, and it's quite possible that the TV is the culprit. Those Live for Speed animations are drool worthy... but why on earth is the guy in the GT video wearing gloves?

 

[humpus]

As long as the car responds on-screen, I fail to see how relevant it is as to how the animated wheel moves.

If you admit that the input of the car is direct, and the wheel on screen does not directly match the behavior of the car, you ARE admitting that there is a delay between de wheel on screen and the actual wheel.

 

[Nomino]

Yes it does, it is just a lot harder to notice. It has to because the whole problem is related to screen delay not animation delay. You my friend have lost the plot.

Rubbish.

If you admit that the input of the car is direct, and the wheel on screen does not directly match the behavior of the car, you ARE admitting that there is a delay between de wheel on screen and the actual wheel.

Yes, read above, I am admitting there is a delay ON PROLOGUE between the wheel on screen and the actual wheel. What I am also saying is that this is meaningless, because the car itself responds directly to the wheel input.

Guys, give it up already.

 

[dancardesigner]

Rubbish.


Yes, read above, I am admitting there is a delay ON PROLOGUE between the wheel on screen and the actual wheel. What I am also saying is that this is meaningless, because the car itself responds directly to the wheel input.

Guys, give it up already.

You are so ignorant, if you knew anything about input lag you would not make such a false statement. How can the car onscreen react but the wheel not if the whole issue of the lag is down to the display responding too late. You talk rubbish, and if i was you i wouldn't post another comment of such garbage before you know the facts, at risk of you looking even more stubborn and wrong.

 

[Raitziger]

TV adds 2 -> 200ms of lag.

btw i have a poll about hand movement: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=119304

edit: Timmpaq you should send those vids to PD so that they notice the issue with animation wheel rotation.

 

[humpus]

Yes, read above, I am admitting there is a delay ON PROLOGUE between the wheel on screen and the actual wheel. What I am also saying is that this is meaningless, because the car itself responds directly to the wheel input.

Guys, give it up already.

A lot of people can't drive with the cockpit view because there's a 'second' wheel in the picture.
And if that wheel on screen doesn't move the same way / at the same speed your real wheel does, things can get distracting.