Input lag

[Nomino]

You are so ignorant, if you knew anything about input lag you would not make such a false statement. How can the car onscreen react but the wheel not if the whole issue of the lag is down to the display responding too late. You talk rubbish, and if i was you i wouldn't post another comment of such garbage before you know the facts, at risk of you looking even more stubborn and wrong.

Yabba yabba, keep on blabbing. You rabbit on as though the animation of the wheel and the movement of the car in-came are directly linked. This is clearly not the case. If you have a display setup that lags to that degree, you have a problem, and would be unable to play most games effectively.

 

[dancardesigner]

TV adds 2 -> 200ms of lag.

Yeah but it is much worse on consoles than PC, as the video and Timmpaq's frame capture proves.

@ Nomino you are a fool please leave my thread, the car and wheel onscreen are in sync.

 

[Custer85]

Dancardesigner calm down, noone wants to harm you, its just that many people just do not notice it like you do. Even i didnt notice it.

1st of all the camera is bad, so movement is tracked pretty bad, resulting in multiple frames in the actual game to be captured in one frame in the video and a lot of ghost images when you take screenshots.

2nd the HDTV might have some sort of latency, or lag, which could lead people to think that the game lags.

3rd the DFGT wheel rotates 900°, therefore the movement on screen looks awkeward just because the wheel in the game only moves like 180°.

4th in the game you will hardly notice any lag while playing, because even in real life, cars will not react within the exact same splitsecond as the wheel is turned. Understeering is a situation where it becomes obvious, the car can not change direction as much as the driver might want it to. While driving on an the road within the speedlimits you will hardly encounter understeer, but even taking a turn with 40km/h will give you the impression that there is some lag between input and reaction. The worst "inputlag" i ever noticed was with my brothers 1977 Chevrolet Caprice.

5th nearly every car, even race cars have a "deadzone" (dont know how its called, iam no english native speaker) where the turning of the wheel will result in no reaction at all. My brothers Caprice is a good exampe here, you can turn the wheel for like 10° (in each direction) but the tires wont move at all. Even this could lead someone to believe that there is inputlag.

6th the movement of the wheel in Game is a bit slow because it has limited moving range (180° vs 900°), so maybe this is considered lag, but the tires actually react to the movement of the wheel pretty fast, check on that while standing still on a plane surface. Driftvideos show it a bit more drasticly than it actually is while driving a "normal" race.

I will try to find out about this inputlag as soon as i come home, but i only have a G25, so my experience could be different, just because of a different wheel, this would be the 7th reason why people could have different experiences with the game.
I also have GTR Evolution, so i can check on that aswell, but i dont like GTR Evolution. Somehow the ForceFeedback and the input is badly translated into the game, i messed arround with all the setting available, but i just couldnt find the perfect setting.

Could you please post your settings for the wheel in GTR Evolution?
Thank you in advance!

 

[cicohipe]

I believe the reason for the delay is because the majority of players play with controllers and if you have ever played a pc racing sim with keyboard you will understand what i mean.

They have slowed the steering down to make it look more fluid on screen, however the actual steering input while using a steering wheel or controller goes directly to the console and is in no way affected by what is appearing on screen.

I suggest if you cannot take ur eyes off the wheel and find it distracting to race in bonnet cam or alternativly bumper cam.

5th nearly every car, even race cars have a "deadzone" (dont know how its called, iam no english native speaker) where the turning of the wheel will result in no reaction at all. My brothers Caprice is a good exampe here, you can turn the wheel for like 10° (in each direction) but the tires wont move at all. Even this could lead someone to believe that there is inputlag.

Dude... no... deadzone is on piece of crap cars, sorry i dont mean to offend you or your brothers caprice but racecars most certainly would not have "deadzones" nor do any new cars. I cant remember the exact cause of this but i think its steering rack related.

 

[dancardesigner]

Dancardesigner calm down, noone wants to harm you, its just that many people just do not notice it like you do. Even i didnt notice it.

1st of all the camera is bad, so movement is tracked pretty bad, resulting in multiple frames in the actual game to be captured in one frame in the video and a lot of ghost images when you take screenshots.

2nd the HDTV might have some sort of latency, or lag, which could lead people to think that the game lags.

3rd the DFGT wheel rotates 900°, therefore the movement on screen looks awkeward just because the wheel in the game only moves like 180°.

4th in the game you will hardly notice any lag while playing, because even in real life, cars will not react within the exact same splitsecond as the wheel is turned. Understeering is a situation where it becomes obvious, the car can not change direction as much as the driver might want it to. While driving on an the road within the speedlimits you will hardly encounter understeer, but even taking a turn with 40km/h will give you the impression that there is some lag between input and reaction. The worst "inputlag" i ever noticed was with my brothers 1977 Chevrolet Caprice.

5th nearly every car, even race cars have a "deadzone" (dont know how its called, iam no english native speaker) where the turning of the wheel will result in no reaction at all. My brothers Caprice is a good exampe here, you can turn the wheel for like 10° (in each direction) but the tires wont move at all. Even this could lead someone to believe that there is inputlag.

I will try to find out about this inputlag as soon as i come home, but i only have a G25, so my experience could be different, just because of a different wheel, this would be the 6th reason why people could have different experiences with the game.
I also have GTR Evolution, so i can check on that aswell, but i dont like GTR Evolution. Somehow the ForceFeedback and the input is badly translated into the game, i messed arround with all the setting available, but i just couldnt find the perfect setting.

Could you please post your settings for the wheel in GTR Evolution?
Thank you in advance!

Nice post, but did you see the comparison between PC and PS3, all displays lag somewhat but the lag in GT5 as opposed to PC sims is much greater as Timppaq's video proves.

In regard to your request of my settings, i do not alter the settings in a way that would affect lag on PC, as i don't experience any lag really with the PC sims, the only pc game i get bad lag is GRID, but that is more down to the game.

With PS3 and GT5 i don't know wether it is mostly down to the PS3 or GT5 that causes most lag. I play my PC sims on a XPS laptop, so i have no need to connect it to a monitor vis cable. But even on PC's with external monitors, the lag is much much less than PS3.

 

[snowgt]

I have to say, that I also noticed the lag of the steering wheel movements on screen right away when I first tried the inboard view and have refrained from using it ever since. (And also because I'm sitting too far away from my screen for this view)

But I also have to say that there definitely is no noticable lag between your input and the car reacting. (which would be far worse)

Because I don't notice any lag in the car's reactions on screen, I highly doubt it's a screen-delay issue though.

 

[dancardesigner]

I believe the reason for the delay is because the majority of players play with controllers and if you have ever played a pc racing sim with keyboard you will understand what i mean.

They have slowed the steering down to make it look more fluid on screen, however the actual steering input while using a steering wheel or controller goes directly to the console and is in no way affected by what is appearing on screen.

I suggest if you cannot take ur eyes off the wheel and find it distracting to race in bonnet cam or alternativly bumper cam.

My gripe is not so much wheel distraction, i play bumpercam most of the time. My gripe is that what the car appears to do on screen will not be in sync with the FFB through the wheel.

@ Snow there is delay on the car also. Also if you press rear view in external camera you can see the actual wheels delay too.

 

[ddl8]

Its not a LAG, its just difference between rotating angles that make you think its a lag, when the guy turns wheel he makes a lot of movement whereas GT driver's movements are very tiny but they do exist even though barely noticable - so no lag man, chill out...

 

[Shokz]

I don't fully agree with anything that has been said here, but I can at least say one thing; the nay sayers are most definitely the most incorrect here...

There is input lag caused by the TV, but that's around 5-12 milliseconds (12 being the upper limit, pretty much), on monitors it's between 2-8 milliseconds - point is, none of the values are actually high enough to produce noticeable lag (an eightieth of a second or less). Any truly noticeable lag has to come from the time taken for the PS3 to actually process input information it receives.

Nomino is slightly correct - the movements of the in game steering wheel are most likely smoothed - you can see this in quite a few modern games, where sharp movements on your end are translated into smoother ones on screen (such as using the d-pad to steer, the wheel on screen doesn't suddening snap all the way round when you press left or right). It would make sense to disable that kind of smoothing for wheel users, however - who knows if they do or not.

 

[dancardesigner]

OMG PEOPLE PLEASE READ THE THREAD

[/QUOTE]

Also the reason people keep saying it's just animation lag is because you are forgetting the animation virtually stops before the DFGT has even approached full lock. Observe when the wheel is nearer to centre and is being animated, the car also lags. The car and wheel on screen are in sync. In fact to prove this get out prologue, keep the car straight then suddenly snap the wheel and watch the delay, and before you go there don't bring up inertia and all that crap.

 

[cicohipe]

My gripe is not so much wheel distraction, i play bumpercam most of the time. My gripe is that what the car appears to do on screen will not be in sync with the FFB through the wheel.

@ Snow there is delay on the car also. Also if you press rear view in external camera you can see the actual wheels delay too.

Yes I know, maybe i should be more clear.

They have to have this delay. If you play a pc sim with a keyboard to turn left or right with the arrows will give you "all or nothing" this is then replicated through the steering wheel and looks ridiculous. The steering wheel will move from dead center to 180% left or right in a split second with no noticeable in between.

For people using controllers in gt5 (which will be most people) this will look ridiculous so they have had to slow the animation down to make it look more realistic.

It also greatly aids in providing more feel for where your wheels are turned and if your car is stepping out. The unfortunate trade off is that its not 1:1 with the steering wheels.

I guess an alternative for PD would be to create 2 different steering wheel animation ratio's. 1: for people using controller and 2: for steering wheel.

I hope you can see why it has to be the way it is now.

 

[dancardesigner]

Yes I know, maybe i should be more clear.

They have to have this delay. If you play a pc sim with a keyboard to turn left or right with the arrows will give you "all or nothing" this is then replicated through the steering wheel and looks ridiculous. The steering wheel will move from dead center to 180% left or right in a split second with no noticeable in between.

For people using controllers in gt5 (which will be most people) this will look ridiculous so they have had to slow the animation down to make it look more realistic.

It also greatly aids in providing more feel for where your wheels are turned and if your car is stepping out. The unfortunate trade off is that its not 1:1 with the steering wheels.

I guess an alternative for PD would be to create 2 different steering wheel animation ratio's. 1: for people using controller and 2: for steering wheel.

I hope you can see why it has to be the way it is now.

Well i believe the actual car responds on screen just as late as the wheel does. Snap the wheel in GT5 prologue while watching car in external view and look at the delay before anything even happens. Like i said in rear view you can see the actual wheels also respond late

 

[cicohipe]

Well i believe the actual car responds on screen just as late as the wheel does. Snap the wheel in GT5 prologue while watching car in external view and look at the delay before anything even happens

I dont have a steering wheel so i cant but by all means post vid if you can

 

[dancardesigner]

I dont have a steering wheel so i cant but by all means post vid if you can

I would mate, trouble is i don't have access to mine either at the moment.

 

[jacksmith]

I don' realy know how to do that but regardless, do the test with prologue like i said.
Plus the test you describe will be more appropriate to judging the difference in degrees of rotation, there would be no ponit, we know the degrees of rotation are different anyway, 200 as opposed to 900. I'am talking about the time delay it takes to put an input through the wheel before the wheel responds on screen.

Is it really that important,use the bumper camera.

 

[dancardesigner]

Is it really that important,use the bumper camera.

Dude, my gripe is the reaction of the car on screen not the wheel animation.
Watch this video and look how the car itself also reacts later.


Noticeable around 1:43

 

[Timppaq]

I guess an alternative for PD would be to create 2 different steering wheel animation ratio's. 1: for people using controller and 2: for steering wheel.

This.

Also, it's quite clear that the actual reactions of the car regarding to the steering input has no lag at all (cannot be feeled). Or at least it's close enough. This was never in question for me. Just the "two wheels" out of sync. I hope it will be fixed.

 

[arora]

Any truly noticeable lag has to come from the time taken for the PS3 to actually process input information it receives.

I believe this to be the case, it may not be relevent to gt5p but when I first got a ps3 I tried playing gt4 on it and it was absolute garbage. I could not controll the cars for beans and my lap times where much slower, that was if I could actually get a lap in.

Nomino is slightly correct - the movements of the in game steering wheel are most likely smoothed - you can see this in quite a few modern games, where sharp movements on your end are translated into smoother ones on screen (such as using the d-pad to steer, the wheel on screen doesn't suddening snap all the way round when you press left or right). It would make sense to disable that kind of smoothing for wheel users, however - who knows if they do or not.

Yup, lock to lock on an analog stick = .5 nano sec I have to think the cockpit wheel is not in direct sinc with the car's wheels, I do however think there is input lag and I don't think it's due to the screen I think it's the ps3.

Just like anything else in life it's not something you can't over come or aclimate to.

It's no big deal 👍 If it is a big deal to anyone, by all means go and play pc sims. I'd bet after a while on either setup you will be just as fast or slow as you are on the other.

 

[dancardesigner]

This.

Also, it's quite clear that the actual reactions of the car regarding to the steering input has no lag at all (cannot be feeled). Or at least it's close enough. This was never in question for me. Just the "two wheels" out of sync. I hope it will be fixed.

I do belive the car is out of sync also, i beleive the whole lag issue is display lag not an animation issue, which would mean that the car would have to lag on screen.
Anyway i notice it because i play PC sims and i can tell the difference in responsiveness, GT5 seems limp.
To prove there is delay on the car itself, drive straight then suddenly whip the wheel and observe the lag. Also press rear view in external camera and look at the wheels whilst doing the same thing, they lag also. Therefore it means the lag issue is the display on screen, not wheel animation.

 

[jasonc23]

Noticeable around 1:43

Shouldn't it be noticeable throughout the whole vid? You're entitled to your opinion but I don't think there any delay at all with respect to the wheel input and the car's reaction, I think it's just the steering animation playing tricks on you...that corner is also one of the faster changes of direction on suzuka, you cant expect the car to react instantly...

 

[cicohipe]

just watched that latest video posted, man seriously thats pretty close it looks pretty good to me.

 

[Timppaq]

Dude, my gripe is the reaction of the car on screen not the wheel animation.
Watch this video and look how the car itself also reacts later.


Noticeable around 1:43

Sorry, but those 2 vids are out of sync... so no proof there.. :

Notice "the two pair of animated hands" (in the above pic & lower left), clearly out of sync.

==> meaning that the above vid follows a bit after the lower left.

 

[Famine]

Yup, lock to lock on an analog stick = .5 nano sec

Analogue sticks have about 1.5" of travel. If you can move the stick from one to the other in 0.5ns, the stick is moving at 47,350mph - an acceleration and deceleration of 4.5x10^12 G.

 

[dancardesigner]

just watched that latest video posted, man seriously thats pretty close it looks pretty good to me.

Pretty close maybe on that setup but there is still lag, and lag can be worse on other setups.
But to fully appreciate what i am saying you have to play the games and compare, Gt5 feels delayed, it feels limp and not direct like PC seems do.

@ Famine LOL

 

[cicohipe]

Analogue sticks have about 1.5" of travel. If you can move the stick from one to the other in 0.5ns, the stick is moving at 47,350mph - an acceleration and deceleration of 4.5x10^12 G.

rofl

 

[Raitziger]

Therefore it means the lag issue is the display on screen, not wheel animation.

I believe most people do not even know that TV adds a lot of lag if they do not use game/pc mode. Even with game mode 2009 samsungs have ~50ms of lag.

I agree that animation problem of wheel rotations is a whole other issue from lag. Animation thing can be easlily fixed and people should keep noice about this thing until PD fixes this. We know things do not change unless they get enough people behind and some times it requires major gaming media to point the issue to developer.
And please vote in my poll about this if you feel like it : https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=119304

 

[dancardesigner]

Sorry, but those 2 vids are out of sync... so no proof there.. :

Notice "the two pair of animated hands" (in the above pic & lower left), clearly out of sync.

==> meaning that the above vid follows a bit after the lower left.

Dude you just contradicted what you backed me up on before. Of cousre the hands ar out of sync, that is the whole issue.
THE WHOLE DISPLAY IS LAGGING, not just hand animations and not just the vehicle, the whole thing. When watching the video compare the G25 to the cars reactions on screen, ignore the cockpit animations.

 

[arora]

Famine, so I exaggerated somewhat. Nice to see the scientific proof though.

TBH I've been thinking about the speed of which a controller moves though and how that input is delt with by the consol. I think it's much different ie. slower with the ps3 then it was with the ps2 but maybe that is off topic?

 

[Timppaq]

Dude you just contradicted what you backed me up on before. Of cousre the hands ar out of sync, that is the whole issue.
THE WHOLE DISPLAY IS LAGGING, not just hand animations and not just the vehicle, the whole thing. When watching the video compare the G25 to the cars reactions on screen, ignore the cockpit animations.

No I didn't. Read my prev post again. More carefully this time.

 

[dancardesigner]

No I didn't. Read my prev post again. More carefully this time.

Dude you said the two vids are out of sync, and tried to back it up by reffering to the hand animations, but the thing is we already established the hand animations are out of sync with the G25 anyway, so how can you relate to the vids being out of sync?

Edit: Never mind i get what you are saying now, i read it differently but i don't think they are out of sync, just you cant see the hands and guages properly in the top pic.

Edit 2 Actually yeah maybe, the hand looks higher in the second pick.