Is ABS ruining an otherwise amazing sim? Are there any series without it?

[killerjimbag]

1) Most race cars use ABS nowadays because it's safer and faster, given the quality of the systems available

2) diving without ABS in GTS is not competetive at all unless you want to take part in a league that only uses old cars and prohibits ABS

3) Implementation is very poor, at best, in GTS

To be quite honest,GTS is terrible in tire implementation, ABS ,tuning and a plethora of things. I've been a diehard GT fan forever. So please spare the negative comments. I don't understand what they were thinking when they designed this game. AC and PCars are leaps and bounds ahead of GT with a fraction of staff. To bad, I can't even be bothered to play GT, its terrible.

 

[GT_Alex74]

You still need to do some trail braking with ABS in GTS to get the most out of it.

 

[Groundfish]

You still need to do some trail braking with ABS in GTS to get the most out of it.

Some?
I mean I dunno how fast some of the people decrying GTS’s braking are, but imo it’s fun and challenging. As a top 1 percent of the game guy using quality gear I find the games implementation never lacks enough depth, in fact the opposite is true for me.
I always wonder when I skim across threads where the negative energy flows...If these people claiming that the games ABS or :::insert favorite part of game you love to trash:::are capable of proving they are qualified to do so by showing themselves on top of the leaderboards?
I’d maybe start taking them a bit more seriously if they proved it by dominating the best in the game. Until then I am kinda left with...

I suggested some stuff for the OP to try, and I really hope he does try those, but maybe I am simply being naive.

 

[zzz_pt]

Some?
I mean I dunno how fast some of the people decrying GTS’s braking are, but imo it’s fun and challenging. As a top 1 percent of the game guy using quality gear I find the games implementation never lacks enough depth, in fact the opposite is true for me.
I always wonder when I skim across threads where the negative energy flows...If these people claiming that the games ABS or :::insert favorite part of game you love to trash:::are capable of proving they are qualified to do so by showing themselves on top of the leaderboards?
I’d maybe start taking them a bit more seriously if they proved it by dominating the best in the game. Until then I am kinda left with...

I suggested some stuff for the OP to try, and I really hope he does try those, but maybe I am simply being naive.

Sure, they're not recent. But I haven't played the game at all recently.

 

[CodeRedR51]

You still need to do some trail braking with ABS in GTS to get the most out of it.

I trail brake all the time.

As far as the complaint here, let's not forget that this is a console game first and foremost. It's designed to be played by people of all ages. Pick up and play with little skill and enjoy. If you want a hardcore sim, stick with the popular PC titles.

 

[Groundfish]

@zzz_pt
I watched the Maggiore run. Good inputs.
If you run that line now in game for sport mode you’d get 5-6 track limits pens.
That doesn’t matter though. Good driving skills.
So I guess you either no longer play so haven’t tried the game for the last several updates?
That’s where my point goes. If you find sport mode or FIA boring because you easily beat everyone there’s nothing I can say, and I must eat crow, and obviously a person in that position would look for other options as far as games.
Nice driving though. It’s good to see a man back up his words.
I respect that.

 

[Scaff]

I always wonder when I skim across threads where the negative energy flows...If these people claiming that the games ABS or :::insert favorite part of game you love to trash:::are capable of proving they are qualified to do so by showing themselves on top of the leaderboards?
I’d maybe start taking them a bit more seriously if they proved it by dominating the best in the game. Until then I am kinda left with...

A logical fallacy.

You don't have to be among the quickest in the world to be able to know if something is right or wrong in terms of physics and how any title acts or reacts. What if the fastest drivers have no real-world experience or understanding of vehicles dynamics? Do they magically gain this as soon as they set a Top Ten time? Of course not.

As an example take Leo Fender, arguably one of the greatest innovators in the world of guitars, he invented the concept of the Bass Guitar, yet he was unable to play the guitar himself. Using your argument, Leo Fender would have no place in a conversation about guitars!

Being quick in any title is not the sole qualifier in being able to discuss how accurate that title is in comparison to reality, never was and never will be.

 

[Groundfish]

A logical fallacy.

You don't have to be among the quickest in the world to be able to know if something is right or wrong in terms of physics and how any title acts or reacts. What if the fastest drivers have no real-world experience or understanding of vehicles dynamics? Do they magically gain this as soon as they set a Top Ten time? Of course not.

As an example take Leo Fender, arguably one of the greatest innovators in the world of guitars, he invented the concept of the Bass Guitar, yet he was unable to play the guitar himself. Using your argument, Leo Fender would have no place in a conversation about guitars!

Being quick in any title is not the sole qualifier in being able to discuss how accurate that title is in comparison to reality, never was and never will be.

This is not an invalid point to make.
My POV is though maybe different in a sense.
I’ve put an awful lot of time into GTS as it’s developers intended competing against other humans in sport mode.
I’ve achieved top 1 percent on the America’s server and I was lucky enough to inherit a nice wheel and pedals with load cell from a friend. I fabricated a nice mounting arrangement. I play from the proper POV in cockpit (by proper I mean the screen height and stuff)exclusively.
So, this becomes sort of the same point that was being made by the abrasive poster in the other thread...
You can be an engineer and successfully build a plane but that doesn’t mean you can fly it.
Further, related to this game, given what it is, I don’t think it’s illogical to say that someone with a lot of time in competing in the game and having success in the game is somehow unqualified to comment on why players in game tend to compete in the game using the in game settings that provide them best experience and results.
The game is not setup to trundle around against a computer.
Also that doesn’t mean that players like myself don’t spend quite a lot of time testing the available settings trying to see what might give advantage in competition.
Maybe that’s why it pains me to read a lot of the misinformation that’s spread online.
Imo this game has a lot more depth than it’s often given credit for by many.
I mean I have to agree with the abrasive poster from the other thread...
If you haven’t put the time in in game in sport mode to get to where you are experiencing the game approaching the limits in race with others then maybe it’s best not to comment about what the cars do or do not do.
I’m not saying default abs like taking a gr2 for example and just relying on slamming 100 percent brake into a hairpin is or is not like some of the older sims in terms of difficulty, but I have found a lot of subtlety to the braking with the various settings from the rate and smoothness of initial press affecting the initial bit to the combination of wheel input and rate of coming off required to get the best result.
Anyone who is good at braking ingame knows from cockpit view about what you hear when you brake perfectly.
I have a lot of irl experience and not much from sims. I’m not a person who watches sim videos or what have you.
I do use real world text to work on my driving technique with both for in game and real world.
Again so much misinformation out there.
But as always you make good points.
I will say yes GTS let’s a person get away with murder compared to real life in sport mode. But, that does not mean that there’s not advantage to be gained in many ways by not following the herd.
That’s what I love about the game.
So ultimately I see why it is the way it is and I think it’s the best decision for sport mode.
It’s not designed to be the most unapproachable thing ever, where hardcore sim people want to come off track after a qual session and look at tire temps across the surface of their tires and choose what slider to click to optimize.
Take pc2...I think their tire temp deal, while it does ‘simulate’ cold tire to warm, imo as a person who has driven purpose built racing cars, ok only maybe 450 hp or so and not in race, but having done that going out cold isn’t that hard, not like it is on pc2. It’s not like driving on ice then trundling around cautiously then suddenly glue.
Thats my opinion only.
But GTS is not about that, really. It’s not about people knowing what sliders to click
to beat a computer.
It’s about sport.
Competing with others and finding out about ones self really. There’s always someone faster, thrill of victory, agony of defeat, sportsmanship, etiquette and personal relationships and facing the people you raced afterward.
I think that’s a lot more fun than tweaking sliders.
But tweaking sliders is more sim so there’s that.

 

[mirial]

Wow, you've mirrored exactly what I've been coming to think over the last day - and here I was wondering if I was just an overly critical old grump! Can you imagine how amazing GTS would be if there were races that disabled all ABS? Sure, the tyre model might not be up to par, but from my early impressions it's good enough that resistance braking can be done. I'm starting to get quite adept at it in fact, and was equalling the best lap times in my ABS-crowded sessions. Albeit, I'm only experienced in the road cars - could be a totally different story in dedicated race cars.

I mentioned this a lot shortly after the release of GTS two years ago because the default ABS effects were like a very powerful ASM combined back then and its effects were incredibly noticeable (to me). At the same time the tyre model back then was far worse with no ABS and not many had decent braking resistance to make no ABS consistent, so sadly default ABS has become a requirement if you want to be competitive - a shame if you ask me because there are many players more influential than me who have probably been mute on the subject, which is surprising because to any driver worth his salt, the effects are still incredibly restrictive and inhibiting. The weak setting IMO should really become the default setting as a compromise for all driving abilities given the current tyre model and a lack of those using resistance braking.

You'll find the high down force cars quite straightforward with no ABS, but once you race against A+ drivers you'll be at a disadvantage with the heavier cars like Gr.3 as default ABS acts like an ASM. With cars like Super Formula, you'll be at a slight disadvantage because the very fastest will run default ABS but then use lower gears mid corner to rotate them because PD have added extra understeer so that anyone can drive them out of the box.

To be quite honest,GTS is terrible in tire implementation, ABS ,tuning and a plethora of things. I've been a diehard GT fan forever. So please spare the negative comments. I don't understand what they were thinking when they designed this game. AC and PCars are leaps and bounds ahead of GT with a fraction of staff. To bad, I can't even be bothered to play GT, its terrible.

I agree, whilst it isn't terrible IMO (more like it's being used to a fraction of its potential) I'm at a loss as to why they arbitrarily chose to structure the whole game around the beginner with no questions asked which goes against the nature of things. I think many key decisions have been based on Kaz's own driving experiences.

 

[Scaff]

I don’t think it’s illogical to say that someone with a lot of time in competing in the game and having success in the game is somehow unqualified to comment on why players in game tend to compete in the game using the in game settings that provide them best experience and results.
The game is not setup to trundle around against a computer.

I've never said that those who are quick in GTS are not qualified to say what makes them quick.

Also that doesn’t mean that players like myself don’t spend quite a lot of time testing the available settings trying to see what might give advantage in competition.

Once again, I've never said anything like this.

Maybe that’s why it pains me to read a lot of the misinformation that’s spread online.
Imo this game has a lot more depth than it’s often given credit for by many.
I mean I have to agree with the abrasive poster from the other thread...
If you haven’t put the time in in game in sport mode to get to where you are experiencing the game approaching the limits in race with others then maybe it’s best not to comment about what the cars do or do not do.

I agree that you need to spend time with a title to know what it's doing, but then again I've never claimed otherwise.

I’m not saying default abs like taking a gr2 for example and just relying on slamming 100 percent brake into a hairpin is or is not like some of the older sims in terms of difficulty, but I have found a lot of subtlety to the braking with the various settings from the rate and smoothness of initial press affecting the initial bit to the combination of wheel input and rate of coming off required to get the best result.
Anyone who is good at braking ingame knows from cockpit view about what you hear when you brake perfectly.
I have a lot of irl experience and not much from sims. I’m not a person who watches sim videos or what have you.
I do use real world text to work on my driving technique with both for in game and real world.
Again so much misinformation out there.

And that's the point I was making, that GTS doesn't replicate a number of areas as well as it could, and that you don't need to be the fastest driver around in order to know that.

But as always you make good points.
I will say yes GTS let’s a person get away with murder compared to real life in sport mode.

Which is exactly the point I was making, with the additional point that you don't need to be the quickest driver on the planet to know this.

But, that does not mean that there’s not advantage to be gained in many ways by not following the herd.
That’s what I love about the game.
So ultimately I see why it is the way it is and I think it’s the best decision for sport mode.
It’s not designed to be the most unapproachable thing ever, where hardcore sim people want to come off track after a qual session and look at tire temps across the surface of their tires and choose what slider to click to optimize.

Again I've never suggested otherwise.

Take pc2...I think their tire temp deal, while it does ‘simulate’ cold tire to warm, imo as a person who has driven purpose built racing cars, ok only maybe 450 hp or so and not in race, but having done that going out cold isn’t that hard, not like it is on pc2. It’s not like driving on ice then trundling around cautiously then suddenly glue.
Thats my opinion only.
But GTS is not about that, really. It’s not about people knowing what sliders to click
to beat a computer.
It’s about sport.
Competing with others and finding out about ones self really. There’s always someone faster, thrill of victory, agony of defeat, sportsmanship, etiquette and personal relationships and facing the people you raced afterward.
I think that’s a lot more fun than tweaking sliders.
But tweaking sliders is more sim so there’s that.

In PC2 or very much depends on what tyre compound you are running and what the track temperature is, take a hard slick out with a cold track and yes it will have almost no grip, run soft slicks and you will have more grip even when they are cold.

Now in reality I can say what compounds you have experience with, but I can say that a Clio Cup on cold control slick offers almost no grip until you get them up to temp, in contrast a Radical SR3 I drive had significantly more cold temp grip. Its not a one size fits all area.

Now PC2 stimulates this better than GTS, that doesn't mean that GTS is bad, simply that they appeal to different groups of people (and a good number who are happy to step between both).

 

[killerjimbag]

Some?
I mean I dunno how fast some of the people decrying GTS’s braking are, but imo it’s fun and challenging. As a top 1 percent of the game guy using quality gear I find the games implementation never lacks enough depth, in fact the opposite is true for me.
I always wonder when I skim across threads where the negative energy flows...If these people claiming that the games ABS or :::insert favorite part of game you love to trash:::are capable of proving they are qualified to do so by showing themselves on top of the leaderboards?
I’d maybe start taking them a bit more seriously if they proved it by dominating the best in the game. Until then I am kinda left with...

I suggested some stuff for the OP to try, and I really hope he does try those, but maybe I am simply being naive.

You won't find me on the leaderboards because it's a terrible game. Yes game,not sim in any aspect or real driving simulator. That's why I don't play it. It truly is brutal that they actually released this with a studio of its size and all the resources at hand. Call it what you want but it is nothing short of a bargain bin game.

 

[Groundfish]

You won't find me on the leaderboards because it's a terrible game. Yes game,not sim in any aspect or real driving simulator. That's why I don't play it. It truly is brutal that they actually released this with a studio of its size and all the resources at hand. Call it what you want but it is nothing short of a bargain bin game.

Ok so fork out the dough, buy the cars and tracks, get a DD and hydraulic pedals,
expensive PC, wraparound screens, motion rig, go irace and leave me alone.

 

[killerjimbag]

Ok so fork out the dough, buy the cars and tracks, get a DD and hydraulic pedals,
expensive PC, wraparound screens, motion rig, go irace and leave me alone.

Don't post stuff if you don't like a rebuttal. I've been using a wheel since Nascar racing 2003 if that's any consolation. I've did IRacing. Not so much fun as a group of guys I've raced with for the last 10 years on the GT series of games. If someone can explain to me how a studio completely kicked the ball out of the stadium then I'll shut up. No one has.

 

[Groundfish]

Don't post stuff if you don't like a rebuttal. I've been using a wheel since Nascar racing 2003 if that's any consolation. I've did IRacing. Not so much fun as a group of guys I've raced with for the last 10 years on the GT series of games. If someone can explain to me how a studio completely kicked the ball out of the stadium then I'll shut up. No one has.

I didn’t consider your words a rebuttal.
See above Monty Python bit I posted.
I mean if you think
“Gt sport sucks”
is a rebuttal, then again leave me alone.

 

[Scaff]

I mean if you think“Gt sport sucks”
is a rebuttal, then again leave me alone.

Sorry, this is a public forum. If you post, then as long as they stick to the AUP, any member is free to reply to you.

 

[GunSlingerAUS]

Hey guys

Thanks for the awesome discussion this has sparked - great to see some folks like to have a meaningful discussion without this turning into too much of a flame war. Though it seems I'll have to change my handle to GunDoucheAUS

I'm on the fence at the moment about whether to use ABS or not, but trying the weak ABS seems like a good balance for the meantime. I gave it a shot last night, and liked the way I could trailbrake, but also not lock up if things went pear shaped. It'll be interesting to see how I go as I progress up the ranks, where it might prove to be a race-losing disadvantage. Having said that, I have read a little bit that seems to confirm that ABS is now the norm for pro-racing, so I'm happy to use it if that's the case and it doesn't disadvantage me. Now to buy a nice wheel and cockpit!

Oh, btw, I also purchased the premium edition of PC2 after hearing good things. Unfortunately I'm a graphics whore, and just couldn't handle how ugly it is, even at 4K with resolution priority. I know, I'm shallow - any other great sims though that look as good as GTS? Btw, I have a Ninja PC (5GHz i9, RTX 2080Ti) with Reverb HMD, so happy to try out a few sims on that. But to be honest I prefer GTS after many years of iRacing.

 

[killerjimbag]

Hey guys

Thanks for the awesome discussion this has sparked - great to see some folks like to have a meaningful discussion without this turning into too much of a flame war. Though it seems I'll have to change my handle to GunDoucheAUS

I'm on the fence at the moment about whether to use ABS or not, but trying the weak ABS seems like a good balance for the meantime. I gave it a shot last night, and liked the way I could trailbrake, but also not lock up if things went pear shaped. It'll be interesting to see how I go as I progress up the ranks, where it might prove to be a race-losing disadvantage. Having said that, I have read a little bit that seems to confirm that ABS is now the norm for pro-racing, so I'm happy to use it if that's the case and it doesn't disadvantage me. Now to buy a nice wheel and cockpit!

Oh, btw, I also purchased the premium edition of PC2 after hearing good things. Unfortunately I'm a graphics whore, and just couldn't handle how ugly it is, even at 4K with resolution priority. I know, I'm shallow - any other great sims though that look as good as GTS? Btw, I have a Ninja PC (5GHz i9, RTX 2080Ti) with Reverb HMD, so happy to try out a few sims on that. But to be honest I prefer GTS after many years of iRacing.

I have to admit GTS is pretty, not sure to many can match it on graphics. AC is a great sim,don't expect to be blown away in the graphics department.

 

[Voodoovaj]

On a related note, this thread got me thinking about switching to ABS weak to see if anything had changed with the recent updates.

I have to say that I am personally liking the current iteration. ABS default was definitely faster for a while there, but I don't think that's the case anymore. I think it's a bit more even now.

Also, it sure seems to me like there is less sliding happening with some cars. I used the Audi R8 to qualify for Race B and switching to abs weak and -1 BB really settled it down and made it noticeably less nervous.

I'm going to stick with it for a bit and I suggest to others that they should giving it a shot.

 

[GTV0819]

I have to admit GTS is pretty, not sure to many can match it on graphics.

That's a given.

 

[Abyss1]

I've been playing the game last 3-4 months with ABS off, and I actually prefer it, and can still get gold lap times

 

[LeGeNd-1]

My 2 cents:

1) Lots of modern race cars and supercars have ABS, and the system is tuned in such a way to work with the rest of the car's performance to make it faster. If you turn off ABS you're crippling yourself basically (unless you just wanna have fun).

2) ABS off implementation is very poor in GTS. Too easy to lockup and very hard to recover once it does. Plus the longitudinal tyre grip issue and non linear pedal compounds the problem. IRL you would adjust brake pressure but this setting isn't available in GTS (brake balance is not the same thing). Weirdly they got this better implemented in GT6 and ABS off is actually usable there.

In AC I just set TC/ABS to Factory and forget about it. If the real car has it, great. If not, that's how it goes. And everything drives pretty much as expected. This is with G25 stock pedals and not some fancy load cell btw. In ACC TC/ABS plays a big role that it has its own setup page dedicated to it (not treated as a "driving aid" but an actual performance element just like suspension or downforce settings).

I've said this a lot of times but GT is an excellent introduction to sim racing. It bridges the gap between simcades such as GRID to the proper sims like AC/iRacing/rFactor/RRRE (Forza does this job if you're on PC/XB). But if you're asking it to replicate everything exactly 1:1, you're gonna have a lot of disappointments I still love the series, but nowadays I play it for graphics, the passion for cars and convenient online racing. For accurate driving experience I look elsewhere.

 

[oper8or]

Is ABS scaring off hardcore simmers?
...for me, it's turned a serious driving game into a slot-car simulator...

Gran Turismo Sport sales = an estimated 8,000,000+ copies.

^ Doesn't appear to be "scaring off" too many people.

"Hardcore sims" are a relatively tiny niche market, and there are already a number of other titles to choose from in that market, and their active player base populating online lobbies is usually low, and every one of those "hardcore sim" titles has physics flaws (among other bugs/defects/glitches/issues/problems).

Besides, just because there's a toggle in an on-screen menu to enable & disable some optional feature (like ABS) in a game/sim, that does not automatically mean either option is a 100% perfectly realistic representation of how that exact car behaves at that exact track on those exact tires in those exact conditions. Sim racing alone cannot provide sufficient preparation for real-world racing. They don't allow people to jump straight into racing real cars on real race tracks with nothing but practice time in a game/sim and no prior real-world seat time.

The "reality" of sim racing is that it's not reality: sim racing is not a competition of who is the best real-world race car driver; it's a competition of who can win races in video games (using whatever methods the video game's built-in parameters allow). The only way to find out how competitive you are in real-world racing is to race in the real-world. Imagine the ridicule a real-world racer would be subject to if they lost and/or crashed and told the stewards "I thought I would win because I did so good in a vidya gaem."

The most useful & transferable skill that many decent motorsport games/sims/simcades can help virtual race drivers develop for real-world competition is: the process of finding a car's limits for safely achieving faster lap/course times. High-performance competitive driving puts us in a mindset where we're constantly trying to read feedback from the car's behaviors (and from the lap timer) in response to our inputs (throttle, braking, & steering) while always asking ourselves "what can I do differently to go faster?" Every time we switch between different cars, different tracks, different conditions, and different games/sims, we re-start the same trial-&-error experimentation process of discovering the limits of each car's capabilities through each section of each course - and that's the same process used in the real-world.

 

[Ddkklop]

You won't find me on the leaderboards because it's a terrible game. Yes game,not sim in any aspect or real driving simulator. That's why I don't play it. It truly is brutal that they actually released this with a studio of its size and all the resources at hand. Call it what you want but it is nothing short of a bargain bin game.

They admitted that tyre model in GTS has it's flaws, that's why they created a new partnership with Michelin to get it right. This might take years before it gets finished though and do wonder if they'll make it as realistic as they can, or more realistic, but with some simplicity added to it, in order to not make it too hardcore.

 

[FoRiZon]

Ah yes, this again.

GTSport is never a full sim to begin with. Same as Forza Mototrsport.

Sorry to burst your bubble but in this case, accesibility towards controller players comes first.

Really hope PD starts to deprecate the tagline because hearing same age old argument from predictable people will not going anywhere.

Don't pity me.

 

[killerjimbag]

They admitted that tyre model in GTS has it's flaws, that's why they created a new partnership with Michelin to get it right. This might take years before it gets finished though and do wonder if they'll make it as realistic as they can, or more realistic, but with some simplicity added to it, in order to not make it too hardcore.

Was that like the one with Yokahoma? Or the suspension one with KW? Right,that was never fixed.

 

[mirial]

Ah yes, this again.

GTSport is never a full sim to begin with. Same as Forza Mototrsport.

Sorry to burst your bubble but in this case, accesibility towards controller players comes first.

Really hope PD starts to deprecate the tagline because hearing same age old argument from predictable people will not going anywhere.

Don't pity me.

That's all very well, but compromising the entire game for the controller users who probably aren't bothered about getting beyond D or C rating anyway is a mistake, and you'd think PD/Kaz would have realised that by now, but you can't tell them/him. When you examine everything from the points system, to the ABS that levels ability, the easy new fictional tracks, and the stock settings, the whole game conspires against anyone with any sort of driving ability in the interests of creating a false reality for those below DR A. Just surprised the aliens etc aren't aware of that.

It would be much better to divide the game into 2 or 3 groups so that everyone finds their natural level and adjust the specs and regs to suit. You could even adjust the DR for those groups so that the best in the lower groups still reach S, even though they are in reality B when compared to the best from the higher spec groups if creating a false sense of confidence is the aim by PD.

 

[FoRiZon]

That's all very well, but compromising the entire game for the controller users who probably aren't bothered about getting beyond D or C rating anyway is a mistake, and you'd think PD/Kaz would have realised that by now, but you can't tell them/him. When you examine everything from the points system, to the ABS that levels ability, the easy new fictional tracks, and the stock settings, the whole game conspires against anyone with any sort of driving ability in the interests of creating a false reality for those below DR A. Just surprised the aliens etc aren't aware of that.

It would be much better to divide the game into 2 or 3 groups so that everyone finds their natural level and adjust the specs and regs to suit. You could even adjust the DR for those groups so that the best in the lower groups still reach S, even though they are in reality B when compared to the best from the higher spec groups if creating a false sense of confidence is the aim by PD.

"False confidence" by conspiring against the top dogs? Well this is an argument I have to disagree with.

The game sets out a fixed kind of physics and rules that all players will enjoy (regardless of ranks), and the players are expected to master it. Good players gets good ratings while bad players gets bad ratings. It's not a very complicated concept, to be honest.

Also not all so called "controller users" are normie casuals who won't bother what rank they are. You'll be surprised on the amount of people genuinely wants to get higher ranks.

For a game like GT, more realistic is good but not to the point of becoming unplayable with controller. The reality is that wheels are not cheap and it's not common for all PS4 owners, and PD obviously won't going to alienate the remaining of controller users, so there has to be a compromise.

For reference, there's a reason why DiRT Series is split into two, simcade numbered series and Sim Rally series.

The only "false confidence" here are the ones that really takes the GT game knowledge right straight to the actual racing without proper retraining. But to be honest, so does for other sims albeit in varying amount.

Also, stop gatekeeping.

 

[ThePotatoKing]

When you examine everything from the points system, to the ABS that levels ability, the easy new fictional tracks, and the stock settings, the whole game conspires against anyone with any sort of driving ability in the interests of creating a false reality for those below DR A. Just surprised the aliens etc aren't aware of that.

In what way are the new fictional tracks easy ?

 

[Groundfish]

That's all very well, but compromising the entire game for the controller users who probably aren't bothered about getting beyond D or C rating anyway is a mistake, and you'd think PD/Kaz would have realised that by now, but you can't tell them/him. When you examine everything from the points system, to the ABS that levels ability, the easy new fictional tracks, and the stock settings, the whole game conspires against anyone with any sort of driving ability in the interests of creating a false reality for those below DR A. Just surprised the aliens etc aren't aware of that.

It would be much better to divide the game into 2 or 3 groups so that everyone finds their natural level and adjust the specs and regs to suit. You could even adjust the DR for those groups so that the best in the lower groups still reach S, even though they are in reality B when compared to the best from the higher spec groups if creating a false sense of confidence is the aim by PD.

I have to say, I think they have done a great job in implementing some ‘background smoothing’ so that controller users can be just as fast as wheel. There’s many controller users who would be quite offended by your generalization about them too.
Imo it’s an ingenious way to deal with the issue.
I have a friend who doesn’t get to play as much as I do, but is quite a formidable opponent on ds4. He has only tried wheel a few times, but he was quite surprised at the difference.
One of this games great strengths is that controller users can hit the same times as wheel users via background smoothing. It’s not that the physics are dumbed down for the whole thing, they have background help going on with controller. I think they have struck a really nice balance overall and that’s why there’s a large player base. Jmo.
The big thing though is wheel users have a big advantage when it comes to tire wear. Good ones anyway.

 

[mirial]

"False confidence" by conspiring against the top dogs? Well this is an argument I have to disagree with.

The game sets out a fixed kind of physics and rules that all players will enjoy (regardless of ranks), and the players are expected to master it. Good players gets good ratings while bad players gets bad ratings. It's not a very complicated concept, to be honest.

Also not all so called "controller users" are normie casuals who won't bother what rank they are. You'll be surprised on the amount of people genuinely wants to get higher ranks.

For a game like GT, more realistic is good but not to the point of becoming unplayable with controller. The reality is that wheels are not cheap and it's not common for all PS4 owners, and PD obviously won't going to alienate the remaining of controller users, so there has to be a compromise.

I believe many at DR S and A+ would enjoy the game much more if the conditions were less restrictive based on some conversations I've had with S drivers in which they were enlightened with some setups I provided and vice-versa. Believe you me, the dynamics and rules completely change when you are free to explore with car setups or at least choose one or two finer handling cars that are properly balanced with good BOP, but they have probably deliberately restricted that avenue so that they encourage everyone to drive the same easier to drive cars.

Whilst I understand the controller user's predicament, it is irritating that PD are relentless with trying to muck everyone in together when they should have by now initiated one or two single class championships with no restrictions. There are many experienced players out there who would take part in that and I just find it very peculiar that this hasn't been done.

TBH it's Sony's or PD's fault that the DS4 has remained unchanged for years and unfortunately most of those users aren't aware that it is inadequate as a device to control a car to the finest level. With their money, there is no reason why they couldn't have developed a device years ago with much more precision that is versatile with adjustable stick lengths that includes resistance braking.

In what way are the new fictional tracks easy ?

As the new tracks are very wide with mostly long corners, the car is fully loaded up with mid corner understeer so there is no danger of any mid-corner drama if you take too much kerb, unlike many of the real tracks that are narrower with shorter corners where you have to use the kerbs very precisely whilst the car is still evenly balanced on entry and vulnerable of snapping into oversteer if you take slightly too much kerb.