Is ABS ruining an otherwise amazing sim? Are there any series without it?

[cleanLX]

ABS off implementation is very poor in GTS. Too easy to lockup and very hard to recover once it does. Plus the longitudinal tyre grip issue and non linear pedal compounds the problem. IRL you would adjust brake pressure but this setting isn't available in GTS (brake balance is not the same thing). Weirdly they got this better implemented in GT6 and ABS off is actually usable there.

100% agree.
The fact that you could rather easily duplicate your fastest times in GT6 with ABS off, tells me that there is something very wrong with the braking in this game. And, I was using the cheap Logitec Driving Force wheel/pedals, not some fancy load cell setup.

I'd go a step further and say that even with ABS on in game, it is quite unrealistic.
I'm not sure how many people that play GTS have, in real life, been threshold breaking to the point of having ABS kick in, but, in my experience it's unnerving in the sense that some of your braking is lost due to the brakes pulsing... especially so when one of your fronts is activated entering a corner.
Yes, it's safer because you can still steer... no, it does not allow you to brake harder/shorter/more controlled than true threshold braking... at least in real life... in my experience.
Apply the same logic TCS has in game to ABS... you are quicker accelerating when you do not trigger TCS.
Same should be true braking, you are quicker when you do not activate ABS.
Yet in game there is no such sensation that you've triggered ABS, much less the performance degradation.
IMO, ABS in game is like some magical ASM for the front end of the car while braking... and that is unrealistic, and does not reward a good skillset.

 

[Groundfish]

100% agree.
The fact that you could rather easily duplicate your fastest times in GT6 with ABS off, tells me that there is something very wrong with the braking in this game. And, I was using the cheap Logitec Driving Force wheel/pedals, not some fancy load cell setup.

I'd go a step further and say that even with ABS on in game, it is quite unrealistic.
I'm not sure how many people that play GTS have, in real life, been threshold breaking to the point of having ABS kick in, but, in my experience it's unnerving in the sense that some of your braking is lost due to the brakes pulsing... especially so when one of your fronts is activated entering a corner.
Yes, it's safer because you can still steer... no, it does not allow you to brake harder/shorter/more controlled than true threshold braking... at least in real life... in my experience.
Apply the same logic TCS has in game to ABS... you are quicker accelerating when you do not trigger TCS.
Same should be true braking, you are quicker when you do not activate ABS.
Yet in game there is no such sensation that you've triggered ABS, much less the performance degradation.
IMO, ABS in game is like some magical ASM for the front end of the car while braking... and that is unrealistic, and does not reward a good skillset.

 

[cleanLX]

View attachment 871395

well there you go.

 

[RacingFan1]

Now, the moment they open up tuning for sport mode is the moment I'll stop playing this game.

I feel the same on wheel here. Tuning should never be allowed. If they go tuning I am out.

Well, if you learn how to tune your cars to suit your style, you'll be amazed at how much confident you will feel driving, how much better the cars can be and how much quicker can you go...
I sort of agree that tuning settings should be equal for everyone in sport mode, however they should allow us to pick between more than one default setting, or improve default tuning settings, because I think for most cars, default settings are just AWFUL and the cars are understeery as hell, or unbalanced, or just bad in general. I hate or dislike most of them, thats why I normally never play sport mode.

 

[MortosDer]

Well, if you learn how to tune your cars to suit your style, you'll be amazed at how much confident you will feel driving, how much better the cars can be and how much quicker can you go...
I sort of agree that tuning settings should be equal for everyone in sport mode, however they should allow us to pick between more than one default setting, or improve default tuning settings, because I think for most cars, default settings are just AWFUL and the cars are understeery as hell, or unbalanced, or just bad in general. I hate or dislike most of them, thats why I normally never play sport mode.

Like I said, I don't want to learn. And I don't want to go into a race knowing someone else is going to be 3 seconds faster because they tuned their car/looked up a random tune on Google. I'll concede having a few pre set tunes but that's it

 

[Groundfish]

Well, if you learn how to tune your cars to suit your style, you'll be amazed at how much confident you will feel driving, how much better the cars can be and how much quicker can you go...
I sort of agree that tuning settings should be equal for everyone in sport mode, however they should allow us to pick between more than one default setting, or improve default tuning settings, because I think for most cars, default settings are just AWFUL and the cars are understeery as hell, or unbalanced, or just bad in general. I hate or dislike most of them, thats why I normally never play sport mode.

The gt cars require certain techniques to be fast.
Imo the setups are very balanced. You can’t get them to turn though without understanding car balance and tires.
They are good setups and the required good technique produces good results.
You can’t just turn the steering a bunch and expect the car to be on rails it takes more than that. You have to balance the car with the inputs you use dynamically imo.
To me tuning is just a way to create a playing field in which driving skill is not what people are using to compete.
With tuning, it’ll be tricks and exploits galore.
I personally wanna know if I do well it’s from skill in driving the cars in game not skill in internet research to uncover exploits.
Jmo

Edit re driving, I am confident already.

 

[Petroperu]

I've found in FORZA [FM7] that you're certainly faster without ABS, but in GTS that's not the case, well at least not for me. I've even tried a home made version of the X-BOX type of Elite Controller mechanism where you can lock the controller brakes to about 75%, but never came within two seconds of using ABS lap times. For this reason driving without ABS in GTS will never be popular in GTS as the majority of players will find it too difficult.

I remember when Gran Turismo 4 was the holy grail of racing sims, till I tried the original Forza Motorsport 1 on Xbox without ABS.
I was complaining about how cars didn't feel realistic and that cars would fail to brake and go straight diving into the turn in Forza.
Then I realized Forza was right and Gran Turismo 4 was wrong.
Every car in Gran Turismo 4 used abs on.
I guess it's a GT tradition.
Players are so used to it that they don't want to play it without abs.

 

[RacingFan1]

The gt cars require certain techniques to be fast.
Imo the setups are very balanced. You can’t get them to turn though without understanding car balance and tires.
They are good setups and the required good technique produces good results.
You can’t just turn the steering a bunch and expect the car to be on rails it takes more than that. You have to balance the car with the inputs you use dynamically imo.
To me tuning is just a way to create a playing field in which driving skill is not what people are using to compete.
With tuning, it’ll be tricks and exploits galore.
I personally wanna know if I do well it’s from skill in driving the cars in game not skill in internet research to uncover exploits.
Jmo

Edit re driving, I am confident already.

Default setups are good to you? Have you tried good ones?
This is not about wanting cars to go on rails but behave more like you want to be comfortable with them and suit your driving style.
I'd say with ONE specific setup its never going to be a playing field since some will always like it more than others. I usually dont in most cases. So I think several default setups would be a good idea. For example three, a neutral one, a more understeery one and a more oversteery one.

 

[Groundfish]

Default setups are good to you? Have you tried good ones?
This is not about wanting cars to go on rails but behave more like you want to be comfortable with them and suit your driving style.
I'd say with ONE specific setup its never going to be a playing field since some will always like it more than others. I usually dont in most cases. So I think several default setups would be a good idea. For example three, a neutral one, a more understeery one and a more oversteery one.

Ok, my opinion is currently speaking about balance, the cars are extremely well balanced. Take gr3 mr and the balance is very very neutral. Excellent.
You can see when you push and slide.
My take is the game asks for fundamentally sound technique. Finding the technique that is fastest is the game.
For the longest time, guys were throttle drifting turns to be fast and that’s arcade.
It’s not like that anymore and when they made improvements which caused those players problems everyone complained.
They complained, but related to irl they were doing gaming input techniques, not fundamentally sound techniques from real world unless you count dirt. Re understeer in general it’s pretty apparent many players have limited ability to understand what induces it and also how to mitigate it if it happens.
I do agree it would be best to have diff setup choices but I doubt anyone would choose anything but neutral, except in extreme cases.
I just don’t view games as mirroring real world in terms of setup.
I think in many cases you want to avoid putting real world aspects into games.
People irl know all the little details.
I mean you don’t want that in a game.
You don’t want to have a 5 percent slower car when you enter your FIA race because of a problem.
No.
A game is very pure when it’s player v player on equal footing.
I’d never race online again if it was all tuning based.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

100% agree.
The fact that you could rather easily duplicate your fastest times in GT6 with ABS off, tells me that there is something very wrong with the braking in this game. And, I was using the cheap Logitec Driving Force wheel/pedals, not some fancy load cell setup.

I'd go a step further and say that even with ABS on in game, it is quite unrealistic.
I'm not sure how many people that play GTS have, in real life, been threshold breaking to the point of having ABS kick in, but, in my experience it's unnerving in the sense that some of your braking is lost due to the brakes pulsing... especially so when one of your fronts is activated entering a corner.
Yes, it's safer because you can still steer... no, it does not allow you to brake harder/shorter/more controlled than true threshold braking... at least in real life... in my experience.
Apply the same logic TCS has in game to ABS... you are quicker accelerating when you do not trigger TCS.
Same should be true braking, you are quicker when you do not activate ABS.
Yet in game there is no such sensation that you've triggered ABS, much less the performance degradation.
IMO, ABS in game is like some magical ASM for the front end of the car while braking... and that is unrealistic, and does not reward a good skillset.

Yeah ABS is very weirdly implemented in GTS. I think it's got something to do with it acting on user input level (you can easily see it's reducing your braking input on the brake bar HUD) instead of acting on the brake system like in real life and other proper sims (like AC/ACC). It never feels like you're using 100% braking performance with ABS, but the safety net and ability to turn at the same time is too advantageous compared to Weak/Off. If ABS Weak is just a little bit less prone to lock up I bet it would be the fastest, but as it stands Default has the overwhelming advantage.

Same case with TCS making you slower by cutting throttle input. Compared to ACC for example where TCS is an active part of the car's performance and it's simulated by retarding engine timing/ignition cut. I think chassis electronics are just poorly implemented in Gran Turismo physics in general. This is also why so many of the modern hypercars which rely on ABS/TCS/ASM/EBD/E-diff to manage their massive power struggle so much in GT (e.g. LaFerrari), when it drives like a dream in AC.

 

[GTV0819]

I remember when Gran Turismo 4 was the holy grail of racing sims, till I tried the original Forza Motorsport 1 on Xbox without ABS.
I was complaining about how cars didn't feel realistic and that cars would fail to brake and go straight diving into the turn in Forza.
Then I realized Forza was right and Gran Turismo 4 was wrong.
Every car in Gran Turismo 4 used abs on.
I guess it's a GT tradition.
Players are so used to it that they don't want to play it without abs.

But GT4 is already more than a decade old. Still a great game though.

 

[RacingFan1]

Ok, my opinion is currently speaking about balance, the cars are extremely well balanced. Take gr3 mr and the balance is very very neutral. Excellent.
You can see when you push and slide.
My take is the game asks for fundamentally sound technique. Finding the technique that is fastest is the game.
For the longest time, guys were throttle drifting turns to be fast and that’s arcade.
It’s not like that anymore and when they made improvements which caused those players problems everyone complained.
They complained, but related to irl they were doing gaming input techniques, not fundamentally sound techniques from real world unless you count dirt. Re understeer in general it’s pretty apparent many players have limited ability to understand what induces it and also how to mitigate it if it happens.
I do agree it would be best to have diff setup choices but I doubt anyone would choose anything but neutral, except in extreme cases.
I just don’t view games as mirroring real world in terms of setup.
I think in many cases you want to avoid putting real world aspects into games.
People irl know all the little details.
I mean you don’t want that in a game.
You don’t want to have a 5 percent slower car when you enter your FIA race because of a problem.
No.
A game is very pure when it’s player v player on equal footing.
I’d never race online again if it was all tuning based.

For most cars its not so neutral and i would prefeer a less understeery approach

 

[Greycap]

The fact that you could rather easily duplicate your fastest times in GT6 with ABS off, tells me that there is something very wrong with the braking in this game.

The main thing wrong with GTS is the fact that we don't have the ability to adjust actual braking power, only bias. GT6 went from 0/0 to 10/10 front/rear and they could be individually adjusted.

If the current "0" setting is assumed to be 5/5 and it goes five clicks in both directions, the extremes could be seen as 10/0 and 0/10. Or 7,5/2,5 and 2,5/7,5 or whatever, the main thing is that the actual combined braking power isn't changed, only moved around across the axles. In GT6 there were a lot of cars that needed values such as 4/2 to be able to use more than the first third of the pedal travel without locking up, of course the same balance could have been gained with 6/3 or even 10/5 but it would have been a skid mark festival in every corner - as it is now in GTS. Using the lower values allowed using the entire pedal travel and only locking up at the very end, or not even there if so desired.

 

[Z Crazy]

To beat a dead horse... In particular, those with load cells have a huge advantage when ABS goes off. In reality that is true in most games so I shouldn't single out GTS, but it is what it is. But as Greycap mentioned, a true brake power adjustment would go a long way to mitigating that (the weak and strong ABS setting in GTS are a joke).

But that said, I think GTS's approach to aids is pretty good. Meaning they are all going to slow you down with the exception of ABS. Where as in iRacing, RaceRoom and ACC the aids are there as more of a tuning aid as stated above. In iRacing they work so seamlessly it would be hard to believe someone would go faster with them disabled. The level of sophistication of the TC allows it to tune the slip angle on corner exit with little or zero thought.