Is ABS ruining an otherwise amazing sim? Are there any series without it?

[oper8or]

Wheel elitism is funny when you can go into online lobbies for any "hardcore sim" full of wheel users who splashed out serious money on elaborate rigs and you're just as likely see much of the same bumper cars and uncompetitive lap times. Forums for hardcore sims often have complaints about wreckers and backmarkers despite most of them being wheel users.

It's not the hardware. It's the player. Hardware does not automatically bestow top-tier skills to players. A great many long-time wheel users struggle with car control and racecraft. Many sim racers spend big on specialized hardware (wheels, pedals, shifters, seats, button boxes, etc.) just for more "immersion," not to "git gud." It's not uncommon for half-way decent gamepad users to cleanly outpace wheel users, despite wheel users preaching about how much more control their wheel-&-pedals give them and how "inferior" gamepads are.

If hardcore sims that cater to wheel users are so much better, why bother playing this game at all? There are plenty of sim titles to choose from. There are enough toys for everybody, so why hate on people who don't play with the same toys you like?

 

[Darla Starch]

why hate on people who don't play with the same toys you like?

How else am I supposed to flex on people too broke to shell out Macbook/cheap used car-level money on video game controls?

 

[Silver Arrows]

If hardcore sims that cater to wheel users are so much better, why bother playing this game at all? There are plenty of sim titles to choose from.

Too cheap to just go the extra few yards and build a half-decent gaming PC and buy a subscription to iRacing. Because that's all that GT Sport is - an iRacing derivative built for consoles, with all the developmental eccentricities Polyphony Digital is known for, and the rampant 'enthusiasm' for whatever PD does backed by the fans. The amount of times that I've seen people more or less ask for stuff that iRacing is already doing - but apparently doesn't exist because people think it's that big bad PC sim that requires you to leverage a second mortgage - in GT Sport, things which is more or less antithetical to what GT as a series has been since the competition, both on consoles and on PC, caught up, is mind boggling.

 

[DJ Dangerous]

I've turned ABS on several times, either because friends in a sala have hassled me, or because I've been sharing the console with somebody who drives with ABS on.

I've found that driving with ABS on shaves several seconds off each lap, so I can understand why all of the faster drivers use it, but it sort of took some of the challenge or fun away for me.

I had not played racing games for the guts of twenty years before buying GTS at launch, so was not pre-conditioned to think either on or off was "normal", I just went for what felt most realistic to me at the time.

 

[Hygrade B]

I do have to agree with the title in away.
I am newish to GT & F1 2019, when I say newish I stopped playing a few years back due to bugs and I lost interest in racing.

I came back this year and besides some games looking better and some games having less bugs bar F1 still having the same problems & bugs I enjoying racing again.

It's seems everyone is using assist. I do agree assist is the stepping stone to be a better racer, but I don't agree that you can call yourself a top racers if you use any assist and if you don't use cockpit view.

To call yourself a top racer & gain the respect you should deserve with that title you should run with no assist at all and cockpit view which is the hardest view to use.

The rig you use don't make you a better driver it just means you enjoy the game and you want the best experience possible.

If you have the 10k spare why not splash out & have fun.

One thing I don't agree with any racing game like in F1 2019 and GT.

Assist make you drive better than non assist.
Pad user get better control over the car.
Other cams should not have an advantage over cockpit view.

Cockpit view needs help to encourage more drivers.
Assist should help you get better it should not make you faster, you should reach a cross over point where you turn assist off and find that extra few tenths to a sec per lap.

The best way to test is get a person that drives cockpit view with no assist that can give consistent good lap times.
Make that person drive the same track with assist & a different view & see if his lap times increase.

If the lap time are reduce then it proves that assist & other non cockpit view is being over helped by the game.

Then try that test again with a person that is so called great racer with assist, away he/she assist put them in cockpit view & see the lap times

My view is after a years or so off playing you should be able to remove all assist that controls the car in anyway.
Only assist a person should be using after a year or two in driving line & cones etc.

Another feature that should be in the game, when racing online it should have an indicator to show which assist you are usinga Maybe a letter or icon.


Simple solution.
If a race car/car in real life use ABS TC then it should be allowed in the game.
If that car does not have ABS & TC in real life remove it from the game.
Big example F1 cars don't use ABS TC , so in the game it should be disabled for every one.

 

[BradleyLove]

I do have to agree with the title in away.
I am newish to GT & F1 2019, when I say newish I stopped playing a few years back due to bugs and I lost interest in racing.

I came back this year and besides some games looking better and some games having less bugs bar F1 still having the same problems & bugs I enjoying racing again.

It's seems everyone is using assist. I do agree assist is the stepping stone to be a better racer, but I don't agree that you can call yourself a top racers if you use any assist and if you don't use cockpit view.

To call yourself a top racer & gain the respect you should deserve with that title you should run with no assist at all and cockpit view which is the hardest view to use.

The rig you use don't make you a better driver it just means you enjoy the game and you want the best experience possible.

If you have the 10k spare why not splash out & have fun.

One thing I don't agree with any racing game like in F1 2019 and GT.

Assist make you drive better than non assist.
Pad user get better control over the car.
Other cams should not have an advantage over cockpit view.

Cockpit view needs help to encourage more drivers.
Assist should help you get better it should not make you faster, you should reach a cross over point where you turn assist off and find that extra few tenths to a sec per lap.

The best way to test is get a person that drives cockpit view with no assist that can give consistent good lap times.
Make that person drive the same track with assist & a different view & see if his lap times increase.

If the lap time are reduce then it proves that assist & other non cockpit view is being over helped by the game.

Then try that test again with a person that is so called great racer with assist, away he/she assist put them in cockpit view & see the lap times

My view is after a years or so off playing you should be able to remove all assist that controls the car in anyway.
Only assist a person should be using after a year or two in driving line & cones etc.

Another feature that should be in the game, when racing online it should have an indicator to show which assist you are usinga Maybe a letter or icon.


Simple solution.
If a race car/car in real life use ABS TC then it should be allowed in the game.
If that car does not have ABS & TC in real life remove it from the game.
Big example F1 cars don't use ABS TC , so in the game it should be disabled for every one.

Utter elitist tosh.

Let others play how they wish—its not that serious.

 

[Hygrade B]

Utter elitist tosh.

Let others play how they wish—its not that serious.

Where did you see me say you had to race a set way.
Where did you see me saying people should not race as they want to?
If you read carefully you will see all I want is fair racing, no advantage over others because off an assist.
In fact I want those who tried harder to be given the advantage for trying than the ones that take the easy route.

But I guess your the type that likes unequal life style.
Your the type that wants an advantage and don't want to push yourself more ?

So you can keep your elitist tosh life to yourself, because most elitist like the upper ground.
Not an equal plan which is my aim for.


Elitist:

1. A person who believes that they are superior to others (and thus deserve favored status) because of their intellect, social status, wealth, or other factors.

2. Somebody who believes that society should be ruled by an elite class.

 

[MatskiMonk]

If a race car/car in real life use ABS TC then it should be allowed in the game.
If that car does not have ABS & TC in real life remove it from the game.
Big example F1 cars don't use ABS TC , so in the game it should be disabled for every one.

The control method and the sensory feedback of real cars is very different to that of a game. Why hold cars to some OTT standard of authenticity on assists when most players are not using a steering wheel or pedals to control their inputs... that's hardly authentic is it?

Same deal with Cockpit view. Cockpit view is not 'realistic' without a multi-screen set-up (or VR I guess). Players may find it more immersive, or they may find it more jarring. For me it's the latter, only having about 1/5th of the your normal field of vision and sitting a couple of metres from something that should be about a foot away makes it feel very wrong and certainly not representative of driving a real car.

The point is allowing people all these options allows the player to compensate for the fact that they're not actually driving a car, with all the sensory feedback and degrees of control that offers.. they're sat in a room, looking at a relatively small screen, moving their fingers a few millimetres.

What you're proposing is making the game artificially harder in the name of authenticity without giving the player any of the additional feedback that's required to do it effectively in the real world.. and that seems like a bad idea to me.

 

[Hygrade B]

The control method and the sensory feedback of real cars is very different to that of a game. Why hold cars to some OTT standard of authenticity on assists when most players are not using a steering wheel or pedals to control their inputs... that's hardly authentic is it?

Same deal with Cockpit view. Cockpit view is not 'realistic' without a multi-screen set-up (or VR I guess). Players may find it more immersive, or they may find it more jarring. For me it's the latter, only having about 1/5th of the your normal field of vision and sitting a couple of metres from something that should be about a foot away makes it feel very wrong and certainly not representative of driving a real car.

The point is allowing people all these options allows the player to compensate for the fact that they're not actually driving a car, with all the sensory feedback and degrees of control that offers.. they're sat in a room, looking at a relatively small screen, moving their fingers a few millimetres.

What you're proposing is making the game artificially harder in the name of authenticity without giving the player any of the additional feedback that's required to do it effectively in the real world.. and that seems like a bad idea to me.

Ok I hear you feel it's a bad idea which is fine everyone has a view.

I take it you use pad & a non cockpit view & use all the assist?

Do you think you a pro driver?

Me I am no pro racer and I am not fast, but I do race cockpit view without assist so it's more fun and it's all down to me to get it right. Yes it's harder but nothing good comes easy.

Pls tell me where I am making the game harder?
Do you mean me saying a pro driver should prove him/herself by driving assist free make the game harder?
Do you mean that the cars in the game should only have the assist the real cars have?
Do you mean that F1 cars should have TC & ABS removed?
Do you mean putting icon next to a person name?
Do you mean me saying that after a year or so a person should be able to remove assist?
Pls explain?

Nothing about the game is realistic, but yet you all cry for reality to be added ...
Water, spray, drying track,etc, cars sounds.

I am a car driver & I have done track a few times in the pass. So I know this game & others don't have any feedback compared to real life & I never said it had & don't expect it.
We have a long way to go before a simple console/pc is close to real driving.

Maybe 10% off gamers are drivers/had experience on track which means the rest don't know how a real car feels and giving that person more feedback don't help in anyway.
If you don't know how a real car feels when you drive at high speed then no matter wat you add you will never know if it's right.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I take it you use pad & a non cockpit view & use all the assist?

Currently using a pad, sold my T500RS shortly before getting a PS4, contemplating getting another wheel after a house move. 'Bumper' cam for 22 years of playing GT, I'm noticeably worse if change to ANY other view. ABS default, TCS off on cars up to about 600-700hp, then maybe TCS1. Only switched from AT to MT in GT6 when I got the wheel, used X [] for throttle/brake up until then too. Getting the wheel broke those habits so even though I'm back on a DS4 now, I've managed to adapt to using the triggers and MT. FWIW I'm less consistent with a wheel - I'm less able to catch slides. I used the MoteC export feature in GT6 to analyse the speed sensitivity of DS4 compared to my wheel, and it was very clear that the speed sensitivity of the DS4 was enabling me to be more clumsy whilst correcting a slide.... without that on the wheel I often didn't recover. On the more specific topic of ABS, this was much easier with the Pedals, in fact one of the first online races I ever won was in an ABS off lobby.

Do you think you a pro driver?

Slightly above average in terms of car control skill, slightly below average in terms of race craft (too polite, I'm really easy to overtake).

Pls tell me where I am making the game harder?

If you remove the option of aids on the cars (particularly the more powerful ones), they will be harder to control.

Do you mean me saying a pro driver should prove him/herself by driving assist free make the game harder?

It's up to PD as to how much they want to level the playing field. I think the point is, with assists, they're available to everyone, if using them becomes the META you have to use them, and beat everyone else in the same situation, the best drivers would realistically still be the fastest.

Do you mean that the cars in the game should only have the assist the real cars have?

Do you mean that F1 cars should have TC & ABS removed?

These would make a number of the cars harder to drive. Real F1 cars might not have TC & ABS, but they DO have steering wheels and proper pedals with which to help manage that fact.

Do you mean putting icon next to a person name?

Handy feature, not sure it would be implemented that well. In lobbies I tend to be more interested in what tyres people are running personally.

Do you mean me saying that after a year or so a person should be able to remove assist?

I think this depends a lot on the player and what they want to get from the game. If removing an assist makes the game less fun for a player, why would they do it?

Nothing about the game is realistic, but yet you all cry for reality to be added ...
Water, spray, drying track,etc, cars sounds.

I'd imagine a lot of these things are about immersion and variety, and in some cases it's easy to get closer to achieving something convincing with Spray, than it is G-Forces for instance... you can't blanket both things as being equally unrealistc.

Maybe 10% off gamers are drivers/had experience on track which means the rest don't know how a real car feels and giving that person more feedback don't help in anyway.
If you don't know how a real car feels when you drive at high speed then no matter wat you add you will never know if it's right.

I don't think you need to know if it's "right", what you need to be able to do is judge what effect it's having on the car as it's happening. You need to be able to react to it, the better you get at that the faster you'll be. You don't need for it to be 100% realistic to do that, you do need the feedback though. Think of it this way... which should be quicker, a driver that knows how the tyre model SHOULD work, or a driver that can adapt to any tyre model?

At the moment in the game it's only possible for most players to judge things with their eyes and ears... there's a big short-coming in any other sensory information, AND for most players the control method to react to that isn't as fine as it could be, and THAT's why I think it assists and aids have a place. Ultimately the fastest driver will be the one adapting the quickest to whatever they have at their disposal (including (or not) those assists and aids).

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Another feature that should be in the game, when racing online it should have an indicator to show which assist you are usinga Maybe a letter or icon.

That feature has been in the game since the beginning, save and watch the replay of the race and with each different drivers view and their hud in the replay screen you can see exactly which assist are or are not activated for that driver.

 

[mirial]

It's seems everyone is using assist. I do agree assist is the stepping stone to be a better racer, but I don't agree that you can call yourself a top racers if you use any assist and if you don't use cockpit view.

To call yourself a top racer & gain the respect you should deserve with that title you should run with no assist at all and cockpit view which is the hardest view to use.

I would like to see all the Tournament finalists race with no assists on the appropriate cars now that fanatec are involved. One of the events is the Super Formulas at Spa in the wet.....it won't mean so much if default ABS will be used. It just defeats the purpose of driving in the wet if a system is finding the limit for you instead of all by yourself.

Pad user get better control over the car.
Other cams should not have an advantage over cockpit view.

I believe just by the average thumb movement on the DS4 that the limit on most cars is found quite easily without over-doing it.

Cockpit view needs help to encourage more drivers.

Cockpit view has limitations when setting the car up for the exits of hairpins depending on the side, whereas in reality you look out the side window. Roof cam offers much better visibility which compensates for the still patchy graphics when compared to Bumper, but you don't quite get the sense of car width and it's a bit slower with immediate feedback. Best to use Bumper IMO for best compromise, or 3 screens.

I don't think you need to know if it's "right", what you need to be able to do is judge what effect it's having on the car as it's happening. You need to be able to react to it, the better you get at that the faster you'll be. You don't need for it to be 100% realistic to do that, you do need the feedback though. Think of it this way... which should be quicker, a driver that knows how the tyre model SHOULD work, or a driver that can adapt to any tyre model?

At the moment in the game it's only possible for most players to judge things with their eyes and ears... there's a big short-coming in any other sensory information, AND for most players the control method to react to that isn't as fine as it could be, and THAT's why I think it assists and aids have a place. Ultimately the fastest driver will be the one adapting the quickest to whatever they have at their disposal (including (or not) those assists and aids).

There's a small bunch of top guys able to control slides as well as most F1 drivers in GTS which tells us you don't need to actually feel what the tyres are doing through the seat. Some have debated this, but if a driver has to feel the break-away, then he is too slow anyway (Senna said this). The only way to feel what a car is about to do to the best of a driver's ability is to establish a visual reference system which they must stay ahead of. This is probably the most important component of driving which gets ignored with very little advice on how to put it in to practice other than through a Racing school.

PD's drive to make all cars usable for anyone has a pattern in that the neutral cars are lower grip and very forgiving, whilst the high grip cars like Gr.1, understeer a lot because it just isn't possible to make the rear ends forgiving like the low grip cars. Adrian Newey who presumably conceived the Redbull Junior very cleverly gave it narrow tyres with a neutral balance but with lots of downforce so that experts and beginners could enjoy it.

 

[Hygrade B]

Thanks matskimonk for your good feedback.

Ok vfourmax1

Thanks Mirial. Love the reply..


For me It would be nice to see that in game just like we can see who is pitted & fuel levels.

 

[Groundfish]

Good discussion. Maybe I am weird, but sometimes I will swap to hood cam in GTS from cockpit, and I’m never faster. Cockpit gives me more visual feedback about the cars attitude and behavior relative top my inputs...JMO

 

[ynot]

Go play AC or PCars 2. Totally better sim than GTS

AC is terrible compared to GTS. Deleted it after 30 mins.

 

[John G]

AC is terrible compared to GTS.

As a game, yes.
As a sim, its better

 

[ynot]

As a game, yes.
As a sim, its better

Maybe on PC. I found the game and the physics to be not good. I spent 49.99 on launch day and just felt ripped off. Maybe now that I have an external HD and plenty of room for it maybe I'll download it again and give it another go.

 

[Scaff]

Maybe on PC. I found the game and the physics to be not good. I spent 49.99 on launch day and just felt ripped off. Maybe now that I have an external HD and plenty of room for it maybe I'll download it again and give it another go.

I've played it on both PC and PS4, the physics are the same.

 

[MIE1992]

I like the idea of assists matching the real car, if only for immersion and realism. I’d say something similar regarding transmissions, including MT /w/ clutch, sequential MT, automatic, and CVT. Basically, actually integrating the transmissions listed in the respective drop-down setting for each car instead of only picking between MT/AT and also having it apply to all cars. I think these factors would add more character to the cars. Especially when some models’ transmission is part of their appeal, like the AT variants of the Lancer Evolution.

There’d still be plenty of cars that may be AT/CVT, or come with ABS/TCS. (And brake balance, too.) And for older road cars that don’t come with the assists, perhaps you could add them by installing parts. One set of parts would grant you the ability to change them in the garage, and another set would let you do so when driving.

I get that GT is meant to have some concessions to appeal to a wider group (which I could understand) but I really think it’d be nice if the cars had more “mechanical character” like this, rather than have these things left to an options menu to be turned or off, for all vehicles, at the player’s discretion. Maybe even including unit readout; for example, if you were to use the USDM Nissan GT-R Premium, it’d be in mph. Similarly, I like the idea of controller settings being on a car-by-car basis, as not all cars will have, say, headlights, and even if they do, they may not have high-beams, or KERS, etc. and I’d like to make the most of the controller, rather than risk having a situation where a button does nothing, forcing you to keep changing the button mapping. For example, having mapped a button for anything relating to headlamps or signals on the W08 or F1500T-A.

 

[Hygrade B]

Lol I started using ABS when in online race, I watched a few replay I saved and everyone bar me was using ABS.
Will I still a month into the game...lol

 

[ynot]

I've played it on both PC and PS4, the physics are the same.

Well we will agree to disagree. So many racing games and they all feel different. Good thing I guess so everyone can find something they like.

 

[RussRobit]

Wheel elitism is funny when you can go into online lobbies for any "hardcore sim" full of wheel users who splashed out serious money on elaborate rigs and you're just as likely see much of the same bumper cars and uncompetitive lap times. Forums for hardcore sims often have complaints about wreckers and backmarkers despite most of them being wheel users.

It's not the hardware. It's the player. Hardware does not automatically bestow top-tier skills to players. A great many long-time wheel users struggle with car control and racecraft. Many sim racers spend big on specialized hardware (wheels, pedals, shifters, seats, button boxes, etc.) just for more "immersion," not to "git gud." It's not uncommon for half-way decent gamepad users to cleanly outpace wheel users, despite wheel users preaching about how much more control their wheel-&-pedals give them and how "inferior" gamepads are.

If hardcore sims that cater to wheel users are so much better, why bother playing this game at all? There are plenty of sim titles to choose from. There are enough toys for everybody, so why hate on people who don't play with the same toys you like?

In my experience it is ds4 users complaining that wheel users have an advantage. Wheel users just go about their business untill asked about their wheel. So I fail to see your point.

 

[RussRobit]

I love driving with no abs, in campaign mode . There's no way I could be consistent enough in sport mode to be competitive though.

 

[KaiB]

I still don´t get it, why should abs be turned off in this millenium? Race cars have it since almost forever..road cars the same.

I do agree that abs could be off to match real life cars like the old models or to be worked to be more accurate, but in most cases people race in recent cars that have both ABS and TCS.

Anyway in GT the only aid that people use its ABS cause in most cases all the other aids make you slower not faster.

Physics are always getting improved and worked on, not in a diferent version of the game but actually some changes had been made in gt sport since it come out, GT7 probably will have other improvements ho knows.

If people whanted a diferent experience there are a lot of titles in the market..., if more people play grand turismo it´s cause they enjoy it more over the other car games seems logic no?

So why all this noise...

 

[ynot]

I only use ABS and sometimes TC depending on the car, track, tire combo. I say use what ever you need to be as competitive as you can be. I run all my lobbies with all aids allowed except Auto Drive. The fast people are going to be fast no matter what aids you turn on trying to keep up so I see no harm in it.

 

[MortosDer]

I'm fine with it. I really really like the game as is. If they take abs I won't be happy but I think I'd try to work it out.
Now, the moment they open up tuning for sport mode is the moment I'll stop playing this game. I have 0 idea about how a car works and I have no desire to spend time learning.
A+ DR DS4 user here.

 

[TonyJZX]

I feel like it kind of mirrors real world cars now...

What cars can you turn off ABS? Since its a passive safety and only comes on when you need it then most people are ok with it.

TC and STM fair enough... many cars especially performance you can turn it off and even have control over their strength.

 

[Groundfish]

I'm fine with it. I really really like the game as is. If they take abs I won't be happy but I think I'd try to work it out.
Now, the moment they open up tuning for sport mode is the moment I'll stop playing this game. I have 0 idea about how a car works and I have no desire to spend time learning.
A+ DR DS4 user here.

I feel the same on wheel here. Tuning should never be allowed. If they go tuning I am out.

Also re TCS, I have to say, I disagree TOTALLY with conventional sim wisdom here. I’ve raced enough sport mode to see how many players valiantly try not to use it and spin, crash, slide out and get passed, ricochet off other out of control and cause penalties, and people who are slow because they are scared to floor it...TCS default shows you your own mistakes.
If you use it on say modern cars that have it, you can understand what causes it to come on and use it to train your technique to become much faster and less frustration than crash retry crash retry crash retry.
I’m usually top 1-2 percent on times and I run default. I’m simply saying, if you are way off pace say four seconds or so off bottom of top ten it ain’t tcs that’s gonna be the secret. Tcs is a good thing in GTS.
Also, it’s not a blanket thing, it’s functioning is individualized to the cars. Tcs can make you better if you turn it to default, and try to run times but not have it kick in.
I am going to get off my soapbox now, but really, turning off tcs in sport mode makes you very very vulnerable in times of close racing...just sayin...

Re ABS weak or default ABS, modern gt cars have that for a reason.
Also, I have to add, it’s a strange sort of person who would say, well this games players aren’t very good because look at me and my no ABS, it’s on such another level of difficulty that I can only measure my skill against other people who are so super sim elite that they run cars without the systems they use in real life!
Lol
I’m not making that up!

 

[GTV0819]

I feel like it kind of mirrors real world cars now...

What cars can you turn off ABS? Since its a passive safety and only comes on when you need it then most people are ok with it.

TC and STM fair enough... many cars especially performance you can turn it off and even have control over their strength.

Do pre-2000 cars count? Just kidding.

 

[RussRobit]

Doesn't matter what cars use in rl, this is a game, and with the current physics, the fastest way around a track is tcs off, abs default, or did all the world finalists get it wrong? But I have to say, driving with abs off takes a lot more skill and concentration than just slamming on the brakes, throwing it in, and hoping you come out the other side, which seems to be the norm in the daily's right now.
No abs totally transforms the offline portions of the game for me. Racing the ai is actually entertaining with no abs.