Is America that Bad?

[Danoff]

I hate this kind of American attitude, it's not nice or friendly and taken the wrong way will make many people around the world think you are all arrogent ,ungreatful school yard bullies

I agree with you. I also dislike that attitude. It has been contested that America can not do things that people have bragged about . The following is your statement:

listen you clueless piece bum muck , have you ever been to Aberdeen? you little w#nky yanks would touch down on the ground and start complaining about the cold... the scots would kick your ass before you managed to get your little gloves and body warmers on !! " raid Aberdeen " ... ?? sure you will... tell you what my little american cowboy , stick to raiding your big refridgerator like all your other fat ass american friends !! i'll give yous something , your good at flexing your big mouths

I am simply saying that America can actually do those things. We just shouldn't go around bragging that we can. However, it is not blind nationalism to say that America can invade country x… because we can…. that should be clear at this point. It is on the other hand, blind nationalism to say that we cannot, because that is contrary to recent history.

I don’t like it when people go around claiming that America could level so and so’s country (when they aren’t joking). But it’s not a lie, it’s just not nice.

 

[TurboSmoke]

Okay guys,...looks like the topic is going nowhere fast....it was supposed to be about America being that bad and its turned into slagging off Scots....

you asked us your opinion through the topic of this thread and you got it...right or wrong, its still the opinion of the non american....

anti-american sentiment?...i didnt mean to be anti american...i could have lied to you and said that i love america, i love Bush, i love war....bit i dont....is that so hard for you guys to understand...

i am trying to be sincere here for once....please read this to the end before replying then you can rip me to shreds again..

i dont dislike americans (the fact the its not capitalised means nothing, its just laziness my part)....

i have to make the distinction here between what anti-americanism is out side of the american media circus....this is not intended to offend any one, but American's are likable people, i dont dislike any of you guys although you kick my butt (metaphorically) every day on this forum, i dont dislike you because i have never met any one of you and to be fair, you have to admit i have never actually said that i dislike americans in any of my posts, not in such a blunt manner...
the distinction i mentioned is the dislike of America and her foriegn policy and not the average american....i know your thinking if you dont like america then it follows that you dont like its people, and thats simply not true....

how many of you have power in your government....very little i spose apart from having the right to vote....but countries are rarely judged by the masses, its judged by thier international and national policies and actions....

WE went to war with Iraq because of thier government and supporters, we have no quarrel with the people themselves, its the small minority that have power and weild that power in ways others disagree with, now we tar all Iraqis as potential terrorists....

America falls into the same type of stereotyping, you as people are judged by the international community by the actions of your governments....which is wrong...are you all war mongers? are you all in favour of the war in Iraq, Vietman and possibly N Korea? no way.....i am a reasonable person and i make that distinction....i dont like America's foriegn policy....is that really so bad? sure, lot of the international aid policies are excellent and that i cannot argue with...in fact my wife worked several years in a senior position for USAID, the United States Agency for International Development, helping 3rd world countries sort out thier economic and infastructural problems...she met many dignatries from the american foreign office (with photos) and its commendable work...

Danoff, Milefile, Mspec & M5power....we have argued relentlessly and i dont think i have lost every arguement but i will concede on this topic for the sake of the forum,...i shall not blatantly condemn your governments more dubious actions nor will the Bush administration be a target of my antagonism whilst on this forum...

why do i concede? because i cannot win. simple as that. if i were to argue anything that you disagreed with, force of numbers will deny me a fair arguement....i have not only to argue with one person, which would be reasonable but in our busy lives i have to respond to and argue a point with back ups to 6-8 people simultaneously all making serperate argurments and i cannot do that...i dont have the time nor inclination for such a draining discussion...i would argue my point with any one of you but not all together....

look guys, i never meant a personal insult to any one of you, i meant to insult your govt wholeheartedly, but not any individual on this board...and before you quote parts where this is shown to be different, i admit i have shouted my mouth off but it wasnt meant in any sincere way...

this christmas i will be in Cali, for 4 weeks and i intend to enjoy the sunshine....i have family there and very good friends in Boston and a cousin in Queens NYC...we may visit them too....now, if i hated americans so much i would stay and home grinding my axe...right?

so now its your chance to rip me apart for one last time before i hang my hat up...i am tired and i have a mountain of work to do...hope fully i wil see you all here tomorrow...

night folks...


PS..

Originally posted by ///M-Spec

The only small and closed mind here is yours, "friend".
///M-Spec

dont be offended by me calling you friend...i say it without thinking...i didnt even know i had written it..

 

[milefile]

*edit* [ramble]

America has no monopoly on assholes. They're the same everywhere you go. Years ago I used to glorify Europe. I used to call America a "bastard nation with a bastardized culture and no meaningful history" and entertained socialistic philosophies and opinions. I see it a mark of growth and maturation to have realized that names like "backwards hick" are merly local terms for a global affliction called ignorance; every negative stereotype of the ugly American has it's European counterpart. I see it as progress to have embraced my country and discovered the importance of what it does, what it means and represents, and what it offers it's citizens and the rest of the world. Those realizations made it possible for me to comprehend the importance of America's relationships with the UK, France, Japan, Germany. We all are worth very much more with eachother than without. Europe is more important to me now that I don't see it as some pie-in-the-sky wellspring of Western culture, but rather as America's counterpart in the world, it's partner and friend (each individual nation to differing degrees and in different ways). When I hear about Europeans who have simply decided that America is bad and evil and destructive in the world, when I hear the lengthly and labored justifications and conspiracy theories they invoke, when I see it assumed that America is a homogenic society blindly following Bush, I get angry, because ignorance infuriates me, the same way ignorant Americans infuriate me, in no small part because they act out and bring to life the very thing I hate. This cycle perpetuates itself on both sides of the pond.

In my opinion, the Americans who actively participate in the political discussions on this board are open-minded and enlightened, even if they enjoy arguing. The most heated fights I've had here were against other Americans. And in a general way, with specific consequences for my social conscience, I've changed my perspective because after arguing my point to its end and allowing it to be tested by others, I found that it could not stand up to my own honesty. And this is how it always happens. Nobody changes your mind, you change your own.

I don't believe Europe and America should be the same. I don't know if I like where America is headed, and that should not be interpreted to mean I do not approve of my country. Over many things I am genuinely undecided. I also have serious reservations over the direction Europe is headed. I'll probably take heat for admiting this, but I even entertain the possibility of emmigrating to Canada, mostly because I'm not willing to sacrifice my serenity for principles I'll never live to see come to fruition in my country's leadership. So in that case another set of priorities takes precedence, or maybe the same ones from another angle.

[/ramble]

 

[Danoff]

Turbo,

are you all in favour of the war in Iraq, Vietman and possibly N Korea? no way.....i am a reasonable person and i make that distinction....i dont like America's foriegn policy....is that really so bad?

This is something that I really want to communicate to you. Before you hang up your hat, I think I have the opportunity to help you understand the American mentality.

America is a free democratic nation. We take great pride in our system of government, because it’s a system of government in which we all have a hand. Many of us agree with American foreign policy, and many of us who agree have put a great deal of thought into the situation. So when you come on and criticize American foreign policy, you’re going to get some serious debate. I would not include, “We rule, flex flex.” to be either a serious debate or a position with a great deal of thought (and tact) behind it.

The reason many Americans get personal when you criticize any aspect of America is because the majority of the people you meet will have voted for the current president. Americans do have a hand in our government (unlike the Iraqi’s that we freed) and we care about what our government does since, because we have a hand in it, it reflects upon us.

why do i concede? because i cannot win. simple as that. if i were to argue anything that you disagreed with, force of numbers will deny me a fair arguement....

I’ve been there. See the safety belt thread. I was totally outnumbered. I find that to be a lot of fun, however, because many people can argue so much better than one person and I like to test my opinions out against the best argument I can find.

You can win, but it would take a lot of time and energy and your position would have to be sustainable (which I believe is the real problem). I think the reason you are having to concede is because your argument has holes and you see that. Now don’t go taking that as a criticism, I’ve had a few arguments fall flat on their faces. I remember one in particular where I argued with my uncle that drugs should be illegal. I could not win the argument no matter how I came at it, he always had another reason, another explanation, another scenario in which his position worked and mine did not (and does not). I couldn’t let go right away, I had to give it my all… I had to think of every possible anti-drug-legalization argument before I could be convinced. After I lost, I was embarrassed (unnecessarily). I was embarrassed because I thought that it was stupid of me to have thought something that was so flawed. What I should have realized is that everyone thinks something that is flawed at some point, and that that is not something to be embarrassed about.

I had a similar instance in which I told my father that “communism is a perfect system in theory.” I had heard it from one of my teachers and did no research into the matter. I assumed that my teacher was correct. He ripped that argument up so fast I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t have time to think about the situation, I just had to sit there and realize that I should have some knowledge about what I say before I open my mouth.

The thing to be embarrassed about is when one clings to one’s position in spite of facts.

We, of course, don’t really matter in your life. It shouldn’t matter (and I don’t think it does) whether we think you are wrong or not. What should matter is whether you can honestly read the responses to your positions and tell yourself that you are right. If you can do that, and since I disagree with you, at least one of us is wrong… and I would like to find out which. Because it doesn’t matter to me what you think of me either, as long as I can read all of your posts and honestly tell myself that I am right. I think milefile spoke to this point well in his post above.


…and I never meant any personal insults to you. That is, of course, counterproductive to the search for the truth. I haven’t taken any of what you said personally. I have simply tried to reason my side to the best of my ability, so that we can properly illuminate our disagreement. So that we can look at it as objectively as possible with full understanding of each other’s views and see the truth.

 

[///M-Spec]

Lets move this thread into a more productive place. Regardless of how rational (or not) many of the anti-American sentiments are, it doesn't change the fact that they exist, and can still have a negative impact on our lives.

I've been thinking of precisely how we ended up in the position we have today, and it boggles my mind how far you have to go back to explain some of it. So much of this America: World Policeman role that is giving so many people heartburn is left over WWII and Cold War strategic positioning.

If you take a situation like Afganistan you have to wonder what exactly in the hell we were thinking at the time. I think I'll venture on a limb and say most US policy towards the middle east was formulated on the predication that there was no way in hell we could let the Soviet Union gain a major foothold there. Afterall, denying Ivan a large warm water port was a major cold war strategic objective. So we gave tons of money and guns to anyone who opposed the Soviet expansion. It didn't matter who they were, so long as they were willing to make it tough for Moscow to buy up client states south of the Caucacus.

That's why we courted western-friendly Saudi Arabia, proped up the Shah of Iran and the various two-bit Iraqi dictators in the 60s and 70s, even though they were hugely corrupt and oppressed their own people in pretty terrible ways. That's why we sent bags of money and guns to the xenophobic mujahadeen, which of course, turned out be worst investment of time and effort since Obi-Wan Kenobi trained Anakin Skywalker.

But the ghosts of the cold war return to haunt us. Now people in the region resent us for meddling in their affairs for 50+ years and see us as a scapegoat for the short-commings of their own government. Maybe they're right. Maybe we were so busy worrying about Ivan, we didn't realize we were growing a bunch of crazy people who fly planes into buildings. As someone pointed out, maybe we won the war, but lost the peace. And this is only one hotspot.

So the question is, are we locked into this course? Will the policies we choose today to protect us from bomb-yielding lunatics spawn another generation of nutjobs? I keep thinking of that old Billy Joel song where he tell us the people of his generation "didn't start the fire"; that well meaning actions at the time will someday turn around on your children, as spectures for their generation to deal with.

Thoughts welcome.


///M-Spec

 

[///M-Spec]

What's up people? I thought all you punters wanted to talk about American foreign policy? Here's a perfectly ripe thread for you... yet weeks pass and still nothing?


///M-Spec

 

[Danoff]

///M,

So the question is, are we locked into this course? Will the policies we choose today to protect us from bomb-yielding lunatics spawn another generation of nutjobs?

Iraq is critical on this point. The idea of turning Iraq into democracy is extremely farsighted. Bush is trying to create a stable foothold in the middle east by freeing oppressed people. It’s dangerous because if it were to fall flat, we’d have more people wanting to kill us. It’s going to take years to find out if it works. One thing is for sure, when you look at the history of conflicts between the US and Iraq and policy between Iraq and the UN, the US was justified in doing just about whatever we wanted in Iraq… not that doing whatever we wanted to do was going to help our situation.

So we’re not locked into this course. If we turn Iraq into a free nation that prospers like crazy because of its natural resources, not only will the Iraqi people be better off, I think we’ll have reduced a lot of Anti-American sentiment. Will it go away for good? I doubt it. Some of the motivations here are religious and it’s hard to do anything diplomatic to get religious zealots off your case.

I think the major stumbling block in Iraq is not the terrorist attacks which have shaken Bush lately, I think it’s a lack of vigilance - vigilance on the part of Americans, Iraqi’s, and the world. Determination to see the job done, which Bush is already faltering on by trying to accelerate transfer of power to the Iraqis before we’ve had a chance to get them on their feet. If a democrat takes office after Bush, I think the whole thing is shot. The democrats are all about hating the invasion and would be more than glad to tear up everything that has been accomplished in the name of handing Iraq back to the people (who will then have to hand it over to whoever has a gun).

So it’s in a precarious state. I’ve got my fingers crossed.

 

[TurboSmoke]

I agree danoff....the new effort by Bush to quicken the transfer of power to the people of Iraq could have a damaging effect.

I disagreed with the reasons for war but now its done and the war is over i have gained a little respect for Bush purely for his pig headed determination to finish the job he started. At least he is sticking by his guns and making sure the path to peace is pushed through despite the daily killing of his soldiers in this hellish country....

i think if he pulls out too soon he may comprimise the peace process and people will say that he's lost his convictions, i would like to see the US and coalition stay in Iraq for however long it takes to get the job done...the deaths of our soldiers were never in vain and even future deaths will stand testiment to Bush's determination to achieve peace no matter how tough the moral and physical challenges that Iraq throws at us...

since his visit to the UK i am willing to give Bush a bit of a break, i can see he is trying his hardest to appease the cynical British which must be terribly frustrating...

truth is, the UK is America's strongest ally....and the US is the UKs strongest ally too....no one in Europe even comes close to the 'special relationship' that exists between these two countries...so i will always listen with interest to what Bush has to say....i may not agree but i will sound him out...

i believe that the worst thing Bush can do right now is back-pedal on the Iraq situation and rush the power transfer...i hope they stay and finish it properly....




( i have to go....apparently i have a smileygram waiting)

 

[kirkis9]

wow, ive been hanging on to this thread for the past week, and id like to say there are moer than just good people here, there are OUTSTANDING individuals participating. i condem your efforts, furthermore the last remaining comments comeby as comforting.

according to a recent newsweek article, bush sees the world in B/W. his democratic gov in iraq is farsighted but his reasons to stay are not, as explained earlier. i have battled personaly with this topic over and over and yet made meaningful progress. much pain.

if any reason there is to bring about military/international policy, i can give a jarheads perspective.

CPL Whitman,N
United states Marine corp
12th Marines Regiment
future Plans Team S3

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
i believe that the worst thing Bush can do right now is back-pedal on the Iraq situation and rush the power transfer...i hope they stay and finish it properly....

Well, turbo.. for once we see eye-to-eye on something. This point is absolutely crucial.

I hope things are on the up-swing in Iraq by the time the Democrat spear-headed Bush backlash votes him out of office next year.

The anti-war people in the US are likely to do way more harm by pushing for a pre-mature pull out than anyone might ever realize. I hope those people come to their senses before they vote in an anyone-but-Bush chump who'll wins on a I'll-get-us-out-of-Iraq platform.


///M-Spec

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by kirkis9
if any reason there is to bring about military/international policy, i can give a jarheads perspective.

CPL Whitman,N
United states Marine corp
12th Marines Regiment
future Plans Team S3

Actually, I wonder if you can shead some light on a subject that's been bugging me for a while.

I see that you're currently stationed in Okinawa. Maybe you can shed some light on the opposition to US miltary presence in Asia. Particularly in S. Korea, where some of them apparently want us out for some reason. (I realize Okinawa is a ways from Seoul, but maybe you know)

I can't imagine a sane person living in Korea wanting the US to leave their country. Our soldiers sit on the DMZ for 50 years protecting them from being starved and tortured by their Stalinist countrymen in the North, and they think we should leave? Its baffling.


///M-Spec

 

[Danoff]

The dems have been funny about the war. Before the war it was "don't send troops". After the war started it was "you didn't send enough troops". Once the reconstruction got underway it was "transfer power as fast as possible." Now that push laid out his plan and it includes a deadline it's all about "make sure you get the job done right... don't cut it short". By the way I hate calling it re construction. I'd prefer to just call it construction since Iraq is now better off than it was prior to the war.

It's funny how the democrats (politicians that is) have adopted the anti-bush platform. I think the democrats in the population at large have stayed much more consistent. Most of them supported the war in Iraq beforehand and many are probably applauding the end date for handing over power.

A lot of the anti-war sentiment here comes from the vietnam war. People are so scared that this war will become the next vietnam - the next American "failure". Americans hate failing. They see this occupation as similar in many ways and many people are seeing a republican link. They see "Nixon - Vietnam, Bush - Iraq" both republicans... They forget that it was Johnson (dem) that got us in to vietnam and Kennedy (duh) that escalated the situation. Then Nixon (rep) got us out!!! The thing is, I'm not even going to attack Johnson or Kennedy on vietnam because I believe in our reasons for going in. (well maybe just a little attack on their methods )

Anyway people need to remember that this is not the same American that had trouble in 'Nam. We learned our lessons and the technology gap between us and them is far greater today.

 

[Danoff]

I agree danoff....the new effort by Bush to quicken the transfer of power to the people of Iraq could have a damaging effect.

I think that may be the first time we've agreed. I hope the trend continues.

 

[kirkis9]

Actually, I wonder if you can shead some light on a subject that's been bugging me for a while.I see that you're currently stationed in Okinawa. Maybe you can shed some light on the opposition to US miltary presence in Asia. Particularly in S. Korea, where some of them apparently want us out for some reason. (I realize Okinawa is a ways from Seoul, but maybe you know)

mmmm... i dont want to shut you down here, it is important, but i'd partition 99.9% of focus on the iraq issue. (just got back from there!)

the statement:
To add to previous speculation on THE PERCEPTION OF MILITARY SUCCESS. the only thing between a diplomat and a unachievable goal is his military force. to be used as the tool to accomplish his goals at many costs.
the media: these spotlighters put way to much attention on a war scenario. this is the wrong way to gauge US success or to question US foreign policy, all the observations should be left to the folks in big white buildings.
the reason: Marines, soilders, and sailors are bred and fead to do one thing, kill. i stand firmly on this. doesnt matter what your job is male/female, they make the contribution to maximize combat effectiveness. then are we war-mongeres, sadly?, agaisnt all personal anguish , yes. Any marine/soilder cant afford to question himself when it comes to moral ethics of armed forces, foreign policy..ect. thats why i stopped watching any tv, especialy fox news (but theres always time for the oriely show!).

so is bush viewed as a tyranical dicatotor glowing in his heavily armed invasion? yes. but as a side note he is in fact not any of those things.

 

[Solid Fro]

Why Fox News? They have no bull **** coverage (especially O'Reilly), unlike their neighbor on the clicker.

My mom was born in Okinawa.

 

[1X83Z]

Everybody thinks that, because Fox's opinion shows are horribly biased, their ability to give actual news is biased, which is probably the least-true fact ever. It's absurd and borderline idiotic.

 

[Solid Fro]

If Fox can't deliver actual news, then who does?

 

[xAkirax2004]

MSNBC?

 

[Solid Fro]

Yeah, MSNBC is good. I rather get news from them instead of CNN.

 

[delucani]

I have agree to what many have said that the US is "too nosy" but being arguably the most powerful nation in the world we sort of get the roll of international police officer if you will. I mean if someone doesnt take some action no one else will. I mean for example with the war in Iraq the US is over there trying to keep peace and rebuild to country and help all of these unfortunate people but you dont see the British Canadians or anyone else helping out a whole lot do you? If they want to continue to whine about the US being too nosy then why dont they get their lazy asses out there and give us a hand and maybe we wont always have the be the bad guy.

 

[kirkis9]

oooo but they are! no one seems to notice (iksna on the ediama) we were acompianied by british, lithuanians, south koreans, and much later the polish. but your right, CFLCC is now a police force however even with other forces out of f the picture it is my opinion that the us army is not fit for the job. not in terms of incompetence, but the sheer presence of force. its a messy dirty buisness for any soilder to be in that situation.

 

[toyomatt84]

I have really no politcal views about USA, even though I live there. I just have one thing that is like a bite in the heel. Why do we need to pay cops for speeding tickets, a very minor offense when you consider you have to purchase everything to drive, when you already pay them through taxes? It makes no sense. Did I ask to have a cop guard me from speeders? No. So why do I pay for them to be here.

I already know the reason most people will try and reply with, being "for the safety of all", and all I can say is why not select a safety rating that you want to have and pay for that. The cops could deal with how much you pay when caught in an accident or drunk driving based on how much you payed for initially. Well that's my 2 cents.

 

[Danoff]

I have really no politcal views about USA, even though I live there. I just have one thing that is like a bite in the heel. Why do we need to pay cops for speeding tickets, a very minor offense when you consider you have to purchase everything to drive, when you already pay them through taxes? It makes no sense. Did I ask to have a cop guard me from speeders? No. So why do I pay for them to be here.

I already know the reason most people will try and reply with, being "for the safety of all", and all I can say is why not select a safety rating that you want to have and pay for that. The cops could deal with how much you pay when caught in an accident or drunk driving based on how much you payed for initially. Well that's my 2 cents.

Wow. Did you think of that yourself?

 

[gtavcfan]

America? Bad? No!!!
We have the best everything: Food, Cities, Music

Food: good restaurants such as McDonalds, taco bell,

Cities (I live in Seattle): Seattle, LA (Los Angeles), New York and my favorite Las Vegas.

Music: Definetly Heavy Metal (and Hard Rock)