Is America that Bad?

[Danoff]

You have no facts. You have an opinion, but nothing substantial to back it up.

I feel the need to point out that Turbosmoke's likely reaction to this will be to say that all the facts about US soldiers getting killed or friendly fire are his facts and that they back up his claims.

In truth, what this statement "You have no facts" means is that you have no context for your incident reports.

Turbo, in spite of my instinct to ignore this and move on, I'm going to try to make the statistic argument to you painfully obvious.



Let's say you are a racecar driver (since this is a board about cars). The last 20 races you ran, you didn't get first place only twice. So out of the last 30 races you ran, you got 28 first places. Let's say there's another race car driver out there who has won 9 out of 10 races.


Now... I could say that you suck compared to that guy because you ran two races that you lost wheras that other guy has only lost once. You are twice as bad as him right? Cause you've lost twice as many races as he has.


Or you could look at it in terms of percentages. You've won 28/30 races so that's 93.333% victory rating (good job!). The other guy has won 9/10 races so that's a 90% victory rating. So you see, you can't say that just because he's lost fewer races than you means that he's a better driver. Because he hasn't driven as much. What if that one race he lost was really easy too! And the two that you you lost were really tough. What if he's competing against a different set of either less or more talented drivers. There's a lot to consider.


The same thing is true with your friendly fire cases. You can't say that American troops are less professional because they have 200 friendly fire incidents out of 20000 incidents (1%) and the British only have 2 incidents out of 200 (1%).

Even if the British didn't have any incidents out of 200, you'd have to look at the first 200 incidents of the iraq war and see if America had had a perfect record. You'd also have to look at how many simultaneous activities were going on, and underwhat circumstances. You'd have to look at everything mspec mentioned. There's a lot to consider.

Let me know if you still have questions.


Edit: By the time I finished writing this, turbo had slipped his previous post in... proving exactly what I pointed out up top.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
and also please be a little more imaginative with your ill informed comments about WW2....i have heard that about 6 times on this forum alone and it still makes me laugh....america seems to forget that the british invasion failed before the americans joined the war and you conviently forget that it was a WORLD WAR...it wasnt about Britain against Germany...
there were many nations involved including australians, indians, filipinos, and africans...we interviened to stop the genocide of the Jews...we could have stayed out but we didnt...we sent hundreds of thousands of our young men to thier death....

but america stood by for several years...missed the worst of the conflict and flew in to get the glory....it means nothing to most British or Eurpeans for that matter....

Pish posh. Four years is not sweeping in at the end and getting all the glory. Fact: Britain would've lost If America had not joined the war. We could've been like you are now and said "screw Britain, we had to fight a revolution to free ourselves from them, let them be bombed to smithereens". But instead we sacrificed about a quarter million lives. Who has done that for us?

you should be grateful....dont make me laugh....

You laugh? That's good. Thank America.

should the Japanese be grateful for you 'ending' the war on the eastern from by nuking them?

Absolutely. And for rebuilding their country afterward. Japan is one of America's bet allies. That's probably why.

should Iraqis be grateful for you invading thier counrty, stealing all thier oil and handing out the rebuilding contracts to american companies.......yes, there a bunch of ungrateful bastards....

This is all wrong. What oil? In reality American tax payers are spending 87 billion dollars on that sand pit. Iraqis are getting contracts, too. Stop lying.

oh thank you america...thank you...thats all you care about...forever the caring and giving nation....paahh!!

Feel the dark side young Skywalker.

 

[Danoff]

should Iraqis be grateful for you invading thier counrty, stealing all thier oil and handing out the rebuilding contracts to american companies.......yes, there a bunch of ungrateful bastards....

This is exactly the kind of statement that makes this discussion extremely difficult. We sit here and argue about whether any stealing of oil is done. It comes out that in fact france has more to do with Iraqi oil than anyone else and the issue of whether America is going to take any oil from Iraq or had any oil interests is finally laid to rest.

Then... in spite of all of the evidence... these proofless, unsubstantiated claims are made as if they cannot be called into question. This is the reason I had to ignore emad in the space exploration debate. You must be more careful about the claims you make. Back them up carefully. Please study my previous post for how to accomplish that.

 

[TurboSmoke]

ABCNEWS has obtained a copy of a 99-page contract worth $600 million.

But other details are being shielded by the USAID, which chose to conduct the bidding in secret.

Among the companies believed to be bidding are Bechtel, Fluor, Parsons, the Washington Group and Halliburton, Vice President Dick Cheney's old firm. All American based firms.

British troops are serving alongside U.S. troops in Iraq. But the closed process blocked British companies, as well as any foreign firm, from bidding.
-----------------------------------------


heres the proof lads....you band the term 'lies' about so freely m/f...all i can take from that is that you are genuinely in the dark about what your precious Bush is trying to do in Iraq.

please explain to me if you will, why this situation in the last sentence in the above quote came about and why it is fair and just...

taken from abcnews.com, full references available upon request

 

[Duke]

I was going to start in on TurboSmoke's "WWII" post above here, but there's absolutely no point. He's got no interest in holding a rational discussion, so there is no point in wasting more than about 90 seconds on trying that route. I'll just say this:

Hostilities opened in September of 1939. Despite the invasion of Poland, nothing major happened on the Continent until Germany invaded France in May of 1940. Then it happened fast, because the Panzers kicked your asses off the beach at Dunkirk in June of 1940.

So that's 2 months of heavy involvement for the BEF before they were evacuated back home. There was no major land conflict on the Continent until well after Deceber 1941, when the Americans officially became involved.

I'm not discounting the Blitz and the North African campaign. Britain fought in the desert from September 1940 until they were joined by Americans after December 1941. So I'll grant the British another 15 months of fighting, during which they used a lot of American equipment if not actual American soldiers.

So that's 17 months of involvement for the Tommies before the GIs joined the party. VE Day was in May of 1945. 40 months later. America had total military casualties of about 295,000 compared to Britain's 325,000.

Not to mention the fact that America had to rebuild Britain's economy as part of the Marshall Plan, too.

So explain again how America came in to hog the "glory"?

 

[Danoff]

ABCNEWS has obtained a copy of a 99-page contract worth $600 million.

But other details are being shielded by the USAID, which chose to conduct the bidding in secret.

Among the companies believed to be bidding are Bechtel, Fluor, Parsons, the Washington Group and Halliburton, Vice President Dick Cheney's old firm. All American based firms.

British troops are serving alongside U.S. troops in Iraq. But the closed process blocked British companies, as well as any foreign firm, from bidding.

Give me the number of British troops over there vs. the number of American troops... or the number of British dollars spent over there and the number of American and I'll tell you exactly why the British companies aren't in the bidding.

I'd like to point out a part of particular interest to me here:

"Among the companies believed to be bidding are "

So this is all speculation anyway. Even if it wasn't speculation, this isn't exactly a smoking gun. Who cares? Do you really care if the US government decides to give US companies money to rebuild Iraq? Are British companies entitled to a shot at American Government money?


It's not like this is money being stolen from Iraq and handed to American companies. This is money that the US is spending on Iraq, and we happen to be spending it back to our companies. I'd expect the British to do the same.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
ABCNEWS has obtained a copy of a 99-page contract worth $600 million.

But other details are being shielded by the USAID, which chose to conduct the bidding in secret.

Among the companies believed to be bidding are Bechtel, Fluor, Parsons, the Washington Group and Halliburton, Vice President Dick Cheney's old firm. All American based firms.

British troops are serving alongside U.S. troops in Iraq. But the closed process blocked British companies, as well as any foreign firm, from bidding.
-----------------------------------------


heres the proof lads....you band the term 'lies' about so freely m/f...all i can take from that is that you are genuinely in the dark about what your precious Bush is trying to do in Iraq.

please explain to me if you will, why this situation in the last sentence in the above quote came about and why it is fair and just...

taken from abcnews.com, full references available upon request

Spare me. First of all, why would you believe ABC news. It's American for ****'s sake! Secondly, there is no proof in that quote ("It is believed"??) Aside from what danoff already pointed out, I found this in maybe 30 seconds.

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
whats this BS?

the facts i stated were exactly that...FACTS... taken from a major american website by the way...do you want its address?

and exactly which part of my post needs backing up mspec??

be precise now...

Re-read my original post or danoff's very clear and concise explanation. Read it all. Mouth the words as you read, it sometimes aids reading comprehension.

Be precise now...

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
and also please be a little more imaginative with your ill informed comments about WW2....i have heard that about 6 times on this forum alone and it still makes me laugh....america seems to forget that the british invasion failed before the americans joined the war and you conviently forget that it was a WORLD WAR...it wasnt about Britain against Germany...there were many nations involved including australians, indians, filipinos, and africans...we interviened to stop the genocide of the Jews...we could have stayed out but we didnt...we sent hundreds of thousands of our young men to thier death....

but america stood by for several years...missed the worst of the conflict and flew in to get the glory....it means nothing to most British or Eurpeans for that matter....

you should be grateful....dont make me laugh....

Looks like Duke beat me to this. Thanks, Duke.

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
should the Japanese be grateful for you 'ending' the war on the eastern from by nuking them?

Rhetorical nonsense with no relevance to the issue at hand.

But since you brought it up; If the Japanese had a big problem with America leveling their cities, they should have thought twice about attacking it. I have no pity to give the Japanese for the A-bomb. The war time atrocities commited against those they conquered are unspeakable.

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
should Iraqis be grateful for you invading thier counrty, stealing all thier oil and handing out the rebuilding contracts to american companies.......yes, there a bunch of ungrateful bastards....

oh thank you america...thank you...thats all you care about...forever the caring and giving nation....paahh!!

They probably aren't at the moment, but their children will be, when they inherit the strongest and most viable country in the middle east in about 15 years.


///M-Spec

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by milefile
///M-Spec, there are members on this board who Hate America. They can't be reasoned with and they won't accept facts because they erode the justification for their Hate. Why they cling to it I can't say. But I wouldn't let put too much energy into arguing with them because you'll only go in circles that they draw. All the rational among us can do is present facts and refute garbage. Intelligent people will read and know what is right and wrong. Basically, you don't even have to try very hard.

But one amusing observation is that in this global anti-American climate, I can't understand why they feel the need to lie about it. They deny Hating America, and then take every opportunity to prove the opposite. It's like saying four does not equal two plus two, but 2+2=4, as if some opaque smoke screen has been put up. It's absolutely transparent, mostly tedious, but occasionally amusing.

You know, I was wondering why you flamed him so hard in the Israel/Palestine thread. Now I know why.

Its funny, this whole American hate thing. Without the Cold War and the spectre of MAD, the world has found another boogie man to blame everything on.


///M-Spec

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by TurboSmoke

america has killed more allies during this war than it actually killed Iraqi soldiers.....

Show me one instance in Iraq where America killed allied troops. And since when are we fighting Iraqi soldiers in the first place? They conceded on about April 25. We fight guerillas.

sure you make fun of us because we are a small country

No I don't. Nobody does. You guys just perceive Americans to be making fun of you, just as you perceive Americans as some huge threat to your lifestyle or something. It's stupid.

 

[jay wilkie]

what the hell is this? Every American against turbosmoke? please all you americans out there, take 5 minutes out and read all of the posts made in this thread by Americans... There would be NO people hating the american nation if the attitudes displayed here didn't exist..

GOD listen to you people !!

I swear with your kind of attitude it stands to reason that it is you guys over there that are eventually going to start something major.. Ever heard of team work guys?? NO .. the only thing you seem to believe in is I'M THE BEST, I'M THE BIGGEST, I HAVE NEVER DONE ANYTHING WRONG IN MY LIFE..

go on , rather than admit that give me one of your patronizing smart ass answers..

signing out.. "OL" JAY

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by jay wilkie
what the hell is this? Every American against turbosmoke? please all you americans out there, take 5 minutes out and read all of the posts made in this thread by Americans... There would be NO people hating the american nation if the attitudes displayed here didn't exist..

You mean trying to defend ourselves from unbased attacks? Yes, we apologise.

the only thing you seem to believe in is I'M THE BEST, I'M THE BIGGEST, I HAVE NEVER DONE ANYTHING WRONG IN MY LIFE..

No. About one percent of our population believes that. In fact, it's you (not you only - you and millions of others like you) who believes that all of us think that. I'm still not entirely sure why.

signing out.. "OL" JAY

Ol' Jay, you live in Aberdeen?

 

[Concept]

What do all you people who are not American think of us? I've always wondered that. Tell me here or in a PM. I'm interested.

 

[Danoff]

There would be NO people hating the american nation if the attitudes displayed here didn't exist

You mean the attitude of wanting people to get their facts straight? You're right. Without that, nobody would hate America because we wouldn't be here.

Rather than sounding off about how conceited we are, why don't you try taking on some of the facts? Because you can't? Because Turbo is wrong? That's the way I see it.

It always goes this way. Some America hater says, America is stupid because they attacked Iraq and just want oil. We point out that that is not the case (and cite facts) and the response is:

"You guys just can't admit you're wrong."

where the response should be:

"Here is why the facts you just gave me don't match up."

You call me conceited because I stand by my facts and reasoning in the face of empty rhetoric. I call you conceited because you expect me to take your word for whatever claims you make.

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by jay wilkie
what the hell is this? Every American against turbosmoke?

What did you expect, genius? If a foreigner walked into a bar in Edinburgh and shouted "Scotland can suck my arse. This country blows." He'd get his head broken in about 5 seconds, wouldn't he?

If you want respect, you have to show respect.

Originally posted by jay wilkie
please all you americans out there, take 5 minutes out and read all of the posts made in this thread by Americans... There would be NO people hating the american nation if the attitudes displayed here didn't exist..

I doubt it.

The loudmouth Americans in this thread are less than half a dozen in a country that has about 285 million people in it. If I were to generalize about Scotland with Turbosmoke as its sole representative, I'd reckon it to be a moss covered pile of limestone filled with people barely smart enough to tie their shoelaces.

But I don't, because I'm not so lazy and inspid that I can't form an opinion about a person without resorting to generalizations about his race, religion or country of origin.

Originally posted by jay wilkie
GOD listen to you people !!

I swear with your kind of attitude it stands to reason that it is you guys over there that are eventually going to start something major.. Ever heard of team work guys?? NO .. the only thing you seem to believe in is I'M THE BEST, I'M THE BIGGEST, I HAVE NEVER DONE ANYTHING WRONG IN MY LIFE..

go on , rather than admit that give me one of your patronizing smart ass answers..

signing out.. "OL" JAY

How long are you going to go on generalizing about 285 million people you've never met before? Are you going to stop before you drink yourself into a incomprehensible stupor for the next week or after you play hide-the-salami with a flock of Shetlands?


///M-Spec

 

[Talentless]

I don't know who's right so far as America's behavior goes, but it has been irratating me for some time that a pass time of other states peoples, especially and seemingly Europe's leftists, is to speak in judgement about anything they please.

You elect an actor.
We look down upon you.

You have budget problem yet don't run off to give more toward international aid.
We look down upon you

You do not subscribe to an even more open borders policy
We look down upon you.

You do not act, believe and think like us
We look down upon you.

I'm tired of being looked down on.

I'm not stupid, arrogant or prideful. I will even defend France if I think people have been unfair.

Although it is comparing apples to oranges, it's still very annoying to have people simultaneously tell my nation not to interfere with the balance of the world while lecturing it about the wisdom of greater social spending; how "evil" its sentencing structure is, its "shameful" international spending; and its "defensive paranoia" based refusal to sign onto international agreements they (the wise ones) support.

What if we started investigating the world? Let's all pick a country and find ways to subtley and directly refer to its people as unintelligent.

 

[jay wilkie]

Originally posted by danoff
I know that it's difficult to be objective about this but... it is a statement of fact that America is the sole superpower left on the planet and could take out anyone we wanted to. We're much too worried about what other people think to actually do it, but it is a fact.

Saying that your country could fend us off, however, is not a fact. It is nationalistic idiocy. If you're so happy with your own country, you should be content with the fact that its military is inferior.

here's just one quote that states that america is the big superpower, the best, no-one can defend against us... i said a while ago that i hope all americans dont think like the few on this thread , and I don't think they do. Don't accuse me of generalisation until I say all Americans are idiots, which Iam NOT !!

Concept I actually like Americans , I just get annoyed when things become a " I'm the best " argument. There is no denying that the US army is huge and very very powerful, but why are there so many who just like to keep showing that off? It's like a true hampion at most sports, they dont go around with this I'll kick your ass , I rule , kind of attitude. You guys just need to show a little more class..

Remember this quote: "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he never existed".

I dont have a lot of spare time , so can't go on the internet and bring up loads of stats. All I can go on is the kind of behavour and attitudes of people. Now I have an open mind (theres no reason for me to lie to you) , and when I read your posts all the american ones are like; he's so stupid, don't listen to him ,he's not intelligent, can't even tie his shoe-laces, (yes I read that ! ). I have yet to meet an american on here that can see this attitude failure..

oh and I don't live anywhere near Aberdeen , Too cold !!

 

[jay wilkie]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Are you going to stop before you drink yourself into a incomprehensible stupor for the next week or after you play hide-the-salami with a flock of Shetlands?


///M-Spec

see...

 

[jay wilkie]

Originally posted by milefile



Absolutely. And for rebuilding their country afterward. Japan is one of America's bet allies. That's probably why.

you think the Japanese should THANK you !!!

 

[jay wilkie]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
If I were to generalize about Scotland with Turbosmoke as its sole representative, I'd reckon it to be a moss covered pile of limestone filled with people barely smart enough to tie their shoelaces.



///M-Spec

more insults... do you guys want people to not like you? try being a nice guy for a change...

 

[jay wilkie]

Originally posted by Klostrophobic


My country > your country.

get the picture about this attitude problem yet? or should I keep going?

 

[jay wilkie]

Originally posted by danoff


Rather than sounding off about how conceited we are, why don't you try taking on some of the facts? Because you can't? Because Turbo is wrong? That's the way I see it.

oh thats right , your not wrong, AGAIN... Turbo gave you facts and you dismissed them... so what do you want?

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by jay wilkie
see...

What I see is that you're in a tough spot. Complain about my generalizations of your people, and you're a hypocrit. Deny you make these same generalizations about my people, and you're a liar.

Choose one.

Originally posted by jay wilkie
more insults... do you guys want people to not like you? try being a nice guy for a change...

You already don't like us. Nothing we say seems to change that. So what do we have to lose?


///M-Spec

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by jay wilkie
see...

What I see is that you're in a tough spot. Complain about my generalizations of your country, and you're a hypocrit. Deny you make these same generalizations about my country, and you're a liar.

Choose one.

Originally posted by jay wilkie
more insults... do you guys want people to not like you? try being a nice guy for a change...

You already don't like us. Nothing we say seems to change that. So what do we have to lose?


///M-Spec

 

[TurboSmoke]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Re-read my original post or danoff's very clear and concise explanation. Read it all. Mouth the words as you read, it sometimes aids reading comprehension
///M-Spec

Originally posted by ///M-Spec




How long are you going to go on generalizing about 285 million people you've never met before?


///M-Spec

two classic quotes....utterly contradictory, but classic none the less....if you had 'mouthed the words' of my posts in this thread you would have discovered to your amazement that i have actually lived in the US for several years....go back and check...

also having spent several years at university here in the UK i have met many americans who prefer to get educated in this country rather than the states....for some weird reason...

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
If I were to generalize about Scotland with Turbosmoke as its sole representative, I'd reckon it to be a moss covered pile of limestone filled with people barely smart enough to tie their shoelaces.
///M-Spec

by actually thinking about it and writing this sentence down shows your actual feelings towrards the Scots...the fathers of america and the builders of your nation....


hold on, isnt there a scottish moderator in here and several scottish members?......i wonder what they think of your secretive feelings?


the piece about walking into a scottish bar and shooting your mouth off....sure you would get stabbed....but your equating this forum to an american bar where foriegners are excluded...

i know its an american hosted site but doesnt the GTplanet homepage advertise its forums as 'Join the GTPlanet community - start connecting with other racers from around the world'?

thats a very small minded, closed and 'superior' attitude to take my friend....would you prefer all foreigners to stay out of you bar?

cant take the heat? dont like being challenged? are we spoiling your easy lives?

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
two classic quotes....utterly contradictory, but classic none the less....

There's nothing contradictory in anything I've written. What color is the sky in the imaginary world you live in?

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
if you had 'mouthed the words' of my posts in this thread you would have discovered to your amazement that i have actually lived in the US for several years....go back and check...

Oh, and you've managed to drop in on everyone? You must have been busy.

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
also having spent several years at university here in the UK i have met many americans who prefer to get educated in this country rather than the states....for some weird reason...

Yes, its because many Americans are interested in expanding their horizons and experience other cultures. Exactly the opposite of how you characterize us.

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
by actually thinking about it and writing this sentence down shows your actual feelings towrards the Scots

This quote: Originally posted by ///M-Spec: "If I were to generalize about Scotland with Turbosmoke as its sole representative, I'd reckon it to be a moss covered pile of limestone filled with people barely smart enough to tie their shoelaces."

...is meaningless without this quote: Originally posted by ///M-Spec: "But I don't, because I'm not so lazy and inspid that I can't form an opinion about a person without resorting to generalizations about his race, religion or country of origin."


Its pathetic that you are so desperate to project these qualities onto me that you'd try to create your own evidence.

Since you're so easily confused by complex ideas, let me make it easy for you: I wasn't making fun of Scots. I was making fun of you.

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
...the fathers of america and the builders of your nation.... [/B]

Well, we already know you have no grasp of basic history, so this comment is worthless.

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
hold on, isnt there a scottish moderator in here and several scottish members?......i wonder what they think of your secretive feelings?

I'll decide how I feel about them if I ever converse with them.

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
the piece about walking into a scottish bar and shooting your mouth off....sure you would get stabbed....but your equating this forum to an american bar where foriegners are excluded...

i know its an american hosted site but doesnt the GTplanet homepage advertise its forums as 'Join the GTPlanet community - start connecting with other racers from around the world'?[/B]

The fact that the hypothetical bar was in Scotland was for the benefit of the illustration. It was to make it clear that there were enough locals around to be insulted. Placing the bar anywhere else would not have made any sense.

Presuming that the other end of the analogy would be an American bar where foreigners would be excluded is another desparate fabrication of yours. Its obvious that GTPlanet is a forum for any English speaking person who likes cars. The fact that there are many Americans here is simply a product of probability.

Any fool can conclude the meaning of my bar analogy is that you should not expect to be treated nicely if you mouth-off on complete strangers in a completely public place. Anything else you garner from it would be from that make-believe world in your mind again.

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
thats a very small minded, closed and 'superior' attitude to take my friend....would you prefer all foreigners to stay out of you bar?

The only small and closed mind here is yours, "friend".

As a matter of ironic fact, the United States has a more open immigration policy than many countries in the EU. So we let many more foreigners into our bars than most you Europeans do.

Originally posted by TurboSmoke
cant take the heat? dont like being challenged? are we spoiling your easy lives? [/B]

Don't flatter yourself, friend. You're hardly a challenge.

What happened to all the ranting and raving your were doing about the "professionalism" of the American military?

What about the crock of nonsense about Amercia entering WWII being meaningless?

Make a real attempt at sensibly arguing your position with real facts and perhaps we can start taking you seriously. Until then, you're just another worthless Internet troll amoung millions.


///M-Spec

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by jay wilkie
I have yet to meet an american on here that can see this attitude failure..

Maybe because such a failure doesn't exist, and you just want to believe it does!

oh and I don't live anywhere near Aberdeen , Too cold !!

i have actually lived in the US for several years....go back and check...

Please tell me you realise this isn't grounds to say that you know everything about Americans and their attitudes. Your only facts seem to be, 'every American I've ever met...'. Yeah, well - those aren't facts. And if you don't have time on the Internet to find facts to back up your arguments, then don't make the arguments in the first place. It's really that simple.

This hasn't turned into an "I'm the best" competition. You only think it has because you want to believe that, so you can continue generalising about the "attitude problem" of millions you've never met.

 

[jay wilkie]

NO, you guys just aren't grasping this be a nice guy thing are you? i have never generalized about EVERY American, just if the attitudes of the people on this forum.. which i have said I hope every american doesn't have..

 

[Danoff]

I would like to summarize here for a moment so that we know where all the different threads of arguments that have begun on this page stand. Claims made will be indicated in italics , their status is listed alongside in normal type.

One the first page:
American’s can’t keep their nose out of others’ business. - Defeated on the first page
America attacked Iraq on the basis of WMD that don’t exist – Defeated in another thread
America is using Iraq for oil - Defeated on the second page and France was shown to have oil interests
Americans can kick any other country’s a*s. - Objectively I would say this is true, while asinine to point out

Page 2
America is full of conceited warmongers - Generalization, doesn’t need to be addressed.
Americans are racist - Generalization, doesn’t need to be addressed

Page 3
Americans make as*hole turists - Generalization, doesn’t need to be addressed

Page 4
Americans don’t understand irony - Pointed out how stupid that was on the fourth page

Page 5
America could not invade Aberdeen. - Tell me you honestly believe that
This thread is majority “America rules.” – 12 posts before this one were anti-American, 6 posts were pro-American, the rest discussed issues and reasoned about facts or were pointless

Page 6
American soldiers are mindless murderers who kill whatever comes near them. -Totally insane argument, no one in their right mind would believe that.
America has killed more allies during the war than Iraqi soldiers – This claim was called into question and not defended.
Americans had friendly fire on this day and that and this one… - This is where the so-called facts were laid out. A list of incidents of friendly fire with absolutely zero context about the war going on…. completely useless and shown to be such on page 6.
Claiming that Americans are mindless murders was not a criticism, it was an observation. - Obviously incorrect to any reasonable person
There are members of this board who hate America and can’t be reasoned with. - So far this has not been proven false, nor can the statement be proven.
America missed the worst of WWII and tried to hog all the glory by coming in at the last minute - Defeated on the 7th page
The Japanese should not be grateful that we nuked them and ended the war - Has been contested, no clear conclusion reached.
Iraqi’s should not be grateful for the US invading their country - Not contested, though it should have been.
The US is stealing Iraqi oil - Defeated on page 2

Page 7
Americans gave only American companies the opportunity to bid on reconstruction. - Verified by an ABC quote, shown to be a reasonable action on page 7.
Americans are conceited - Generalization, doesn’t need to be addressed
Generalizations about countries are unfair and unconstructive - Examples given and misinterpreted on page 8
The phrase “America the big superpower, the best, and no-one can defend against us” is false. - Unsubstantiated claim, requires an example of a country that could defend against an American attack to possibly be shown truthful.
The Japanese should not thank you for bombing them and ending their role in WWII – contested, no clear conclusion reached.

Page 8
Turbo’s facts have been dismissed on this board and he is correct in his assertions. - This post is a response to that claim.
Anti Scottish comments made in this thread are hurtful to Scottish people - This is a misinterpretation of the argument on page 7 about generalizations.
The Scottish are the fathers of America - Dismissed as false.
The Americans on this thread are conceited - Requires an example of conceit on the part of every American posting to this thread to avoid being a generalization.


All of the major anti-American sentiments that have been argued have been dropped. This thread is a series of anti-American sentiments that, when argued logically, were dropped in favor of a different anti-American sentiment. Some of these claims were then returned to later when it seemed as though everyone had forgotten that the claim was shown to be unfounded.

The anit-American position appears to have a poor track record of substantiation. Please indicate where I have made any mistakes or left out counter counter arguments. If I have not left any out, then the anti-American viewpoint is losing the debate on every front.


------------------------------------------------------
Specifically to Jay and Turbo:

What you see above is a list of (in some cases your own) arguments that you have abandoned. It does not strengthen your cause to abandon your arguments, it points out that you have not thought your position through. In the face of defeat at the hands of logic, you should rethink your position. It is a clear display of ignorance for you to continue to hold your position in spite of a lack of ability to support any of your claims.

 

[jay wilkie]

i have said it before and i will say it again. I am not saying America is not a force of great size , one to be taken seriously. It is the american attitude that gets me.. i'm not going to go back and find quotes but i have read things like we'll kick your a##, we rule, your are poor and forgotten ( don't know what country he was referring too), and then when I question these kind of statements you bombard me with facts that I'm not really disputing.. Can I rephrase it for you then? I hate this kind of American attitude, it's not nice or friendly and taken the wrong way will make many people around the world think you are all arrogent ,ungreatful school yard bullies...