PD should be held responsible for inciting player anger

[breeminator]

And always will be.

It isn't necessary for a game to work like the first video in the OP shows (I haven't watched the second one). If a game is server authoritative, it wouldn't be possible for the two players to see a different sequence of events. One of them can temporarily see something different happen to the other, but the situation would then reset to show the one definitive sequence of events for both players.

 

[daan]

What's going on here, Mr I always drive to FIA standards?

 

[Nightwing24]

Thread title should be changed to: “ @mattikake held responsible for inciting GTPlanet forum anger”

 

[Meythia]

If a game is server

What server are you refering to?
P2P uses one of the participating gamers (the one to create the lobby) hardware to save cost on dedicated servers.

 

[Pigems]

How? How does a sync/lag issue make me a bad driver?

They don’t, your ego/driving skill does. Use your radar, that’s what it’s there for, unless you are at 100k DR(maxed out), then don’t act like you are too good to use all the tools, because you’re not.

 

[breeminator]

What server are you refering to?
P2P uses one of the participating gamers (the one to create the lobby) hardware to save cost on dedicated servers.

I'm just saying these problems aren't inherent to computer games, it is possible for a game developer to use dedicated servers and make them have authority over all in-game events. For a game with a P2P architecture, the developers may be unwilling to trust a single player-owned device to that extent.

Even with server authority, you could still get a slightly different problem where the OP's input is lagged between his device and the server, causing his car to hit the other car. But the server's version of events would show the same thing for both players rather than what we see in his video, where his version of events has his car turning as expected, but the other player's version of events has his car being rammed due to receiving the other player's steering input late. It would solve the problem if the lag were between the other player's device and the server - in that scenario, with server authority, the other player would get rammed, but a little bit later it would correct to reflect the latest true game state on the server.

 

[mattikake]

They don’t, your ego/driving skill does. Use your radar, that’s what it’s there for, unless you are at 100k DR(maxed out), then don’t act like you are too good to use all the tools, because you’re not.

You seem to have trouble comprehending my point. If the car lags on screen, it will lag on the radar.

DR is a reflection of how many daily races you do. Due to the penalty system and win at all costs driving standards, I've only bothered with 12 daily races in GT7 and none in over a year. Private league racing is where I spend most of my time.

And I literally don't need to use the radar. I can see everything I need in my mirrors, coupled with spatial awareness and a solid grounding in inertial physics. For e.g. I saw his lunge into the chicane because of my mirrors and avoided contact because of my spatial awareness and retook him as because of understanding inertia, all without any contact, because I use my mirrors not some unrealistic gameplay fix like a radar.

It's not your place to make demands on how others use tools that are optional. It would be like me demanding you use bumper cam so you can get to use mirrors like a proper driver.

 

[sswishbone]

Too true! Don’t get me started on all those so called professional race drivers using teams radioing communications on track conditions and positionings and strategies. Goddamn cheats the lot of them! Max Verstappenn is a talentless hack without Red Bull behind him, right! Untalented fools should stick to the bare minimum and just git good!
/end sarcasm

Absolutely he's talentless, doesn't refuel, doesn't change his tyres, dry his own feet on a rainy grid, actually change gears...

 

[TumeK5]

A little off-topic, but it's Matti's birthday today!

 

[Pigems]

You seem to have trouble comprehending my point. If the car lags on screen, it will lag on the radar.

DR is a reflection of how many daily races you do. Due to the penalty system and win at all costs driving standards, I've only bothered with 12 daily races in GT7 and none in over a year. Private league racing is where I spend most of my time.

And I literally don't need to use the radar. I can see everything I need in my mirrors, coupled with spatial awareness and a solid grounding in inertial physics. For e.g. I saw his lunge into the chicane because of my mirrors and avoided contact because of my spatial awareness and retook him as because of understanding inertia, all without any contact, because I use my mirrors not some unrealistic gameplay fix like a radar.

It's not your place to make demands on how others use tools that are optional. It would be like me demanding you use bumper cam so you can get to use mirrors like a proper driver.

And so do you, if the lobby is laggy, then you have to give more space around you during a race to account for the lag. And what’s the best way to judge the space around you, EDPECIALLY in bumper cam….. The Radar!

Git Gud and stop blaming your problems on other people.

 

[SU_Tempest]

Send a letter to the FIA like you always do, mate. Or an email, with those rich-man i-simply-gotta-tell-GTPlanet-how-well-off-i-am internet speeds of yours.

Oh, and, play literally any other online game. Maybe you'll learn something about lag and how very universal it is. "PD should be held responsible for inciting player anger..." Guess you should be held responsible for the coffee I spit laughing while reading this, while we're at it.

 

[DK]

They don’t, your ego/driving skill does. Use your radar, that’s what it’s there for, unless you are at 100k DR(maxed out), then don’t act like you are too good to use all the tools, because you’re not.

The radar isn't much help when you brake for somewhere like the Nurburgring's T1 and the oxygen thief behind you doesn't.

 

[Pigems]

The radar isn't much help when you brake for somewhere like the Nurburgring's T1 and the oxygen thief behind you doesn't.

Oh course not, but it still let you see him coming, and his trajectory, so you have best chance to get out of the way of the missile. I’ve used radar to avoid those hits many many times.

 

[Famine]

If a game is server authoritative

... and with most console games being P2P, that's somewhat moot...

The GT World Series races are server-client, but public/private lobbies are not.

it wouldn't be possible for the two players to see a different sequence of events. One of them can temporarily see something different happen to the other, but the situation would then reset to show the one definitive sequence of events for both players.

... which is fine for shooters and RPGs, but isn't terrific for a racing game, because the incident that sent you out of control already happened, double-digits of metres ago.

Being "reset" to where you actually were is of no use whatsoever if you're currently in the middle of taking action to regain control and dealing with FFB effects only to find you're now not out of control and you're back on line but have hoyed the wheel round 90 degrees to one side against resistance which also suddenly vanishes.


Data is limited to - very roughly - a round-trip speed of 60 miles per millisecond. If someone is 900 miles away (pretty much London to Rome, although bear in mind that this doesn't take into account the deviations on the cable route), your console's guess for where they are is based on information that's at best 15ms old (and their console's guess for where you are is also similarly outdated). Of course if the game updates telemetry data every 16.67ms (60Hz being roughly 16.67ms per cycle) that's okay...

... but if we're not talking about a best-case scenario - such as someone who arrogantly insists they don't need to do anything because:

​

... and their internet "speed" (which is actually width, but they never realise this) is good, ignorant of the fact that "Mbps" is irrelevant above a surprisingly low number, and refuses to do anything to optimise it as a result of this ignorance so they're wasting upwards of 10ms on needless stuff (because "I can watch Netflix on wireless so why can't I race on wireless"), but then the other guy has literally plugged his console into a turnip which affects everyone in a P2P public lobby (the worst-case scenario for players with connectivity issues) - then it isn't. All you need is a lag spike (like when their mum [or possibly girlfriend/wife*, but less likely] turns on the microwave or vacuum) to make the game miss a refresh and everyone's out of the positions they think they're in.

While more or less meaningless at walking or even sprinting paces in an FPS, 15ms is 10ft (3m) at 100mph - about two-thirds of a car length - although on a straight even GT7's netcode can guess that the car's going straight and fill in the missed frames afterwards (which you see with cars that judder forward and backward on straights). More significantly, it's also very roughly 5ft (1.5m) of lateral displacement for a car crossing the full width of track (depending on the track) to aim for the apex of a corner; if the game misses one or two positional updates due to turnipnet, the car is literally an entire car's width (or two) away from where you think it is - and so is yours to the other guy.

And this is what we see on the Monza clip most clearly. The camera car is taking a normal line and largely perceives the target car normally until they glitch and go crashing off. From the target car's POV we'd doubtless see the camera car missing the apex by about four metres, causing a collision which sent them off the outside, before they glitched closer to the kerb - which you'd probably not see unless watching a replay from the target car but set to the camera car.

Both drivers would have replays "proving" their POV, because their console saves what they saw and not what the other car saw. And then they have pitched arguments about it on forums/Reddit/PSN messages, despite neither of them being right.


Just for a bit of fun, and to show how this is how all racing games are and will be in perpetuity unless we can crack superluminal data transfer, here's an incident from Rennsport's ESL R1 (which uses fixed servers) Fall Season Round 2 final race four weeks back:

​

The Audi was stripped of victory for this - despite the stewards having a "master" replay and it being self-evidently total bollocks to take action against them for it. Although the driving and stewarding standards in ESL R1 are absolutely in the bin; one driver was two corners from winning the Spring Season final (a live, in-person event) and his main rival for it just chopped a chicane and took him out. The stewards took no action, and the rival won the title two races later. But I digress.


*Although domestic chores and racing games are not the sole domain of either gender and mutually exclusive, this is the most common social scenario

 

[GT_Alex74]

How does that cater for lag?

Use a radar? In a sim? Lol. No, mirrors are all anyone with any semblance of talent should need.

List of reasons why your stance is incredibly stupid:

• if there is lag, the cursor will move on the radar. Of course, if someone has frequent, big lag spikes, there's nothing others can do and that someone should sort their internet setup. And as a league host involving world champions, who does a lot of research on the game constantly, I can attest firmly than individual internet quality matters the most. Also PS4 is faster to connect to lobbies than PS5 and has been better at hosting lobbies for some weird reason (now hosting seems to mainly be internet quality again though).
• you don't have the same field of view in a single screen setup, or even a triple screen setup, compared to real life where you have peripheral vision and can turn your head at will
• you have a much better sound spatialization in real life as well. Don't care how fancy of a headset you have. It's still not as good.
• and the most important part: radars do exist in real life race cars. Here is a nearly 10 year old article talking about it: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/sport...ns-corvette-camera-radar-technology/10433811/

People who think they don't need a radar in sims should have it forced on in the middle of their main screen. Also, simracing doesn't need to be an exact replica of real life. Embrace what's better in it and let it improve the racing for everyone.

 

[mattikake]

What's going on here, Mr I always drive to FIA standards?

View attachment 1292159


View attachment 1292163

Yellow flag. Do you see a car off the track ahead or even behind us, on the track map? No. Did I get a penalty? No. This is the game at fault. It's so often at fault I've become used to ignoring it.

Don't capitulate to stupidity.

Track limits. The game allows it [because it is not FIA compliant]. If you want to be fast, you exploit it. The game is at fault. What? I'm supposed to not do what everyone else does just to please you?

Not a chance.

 

[SU_Tempest]

This is the game at fault. It's so often at fault

Ah, the mating call of the scrub... Never my fault, always something better the devs/the other player/my internet (cross all that don't apply) could have done, always some factor that's never me, always some brilliant idea I and only I came up with that would have fixed it. Takes me back! I was exactly like that in the online games I spent my time on, too...

...When I was 13.

 

[Imari]

It's not your place to make demands on how others use tools that are optional. It would be like me demanding you use bumper cam so you can get to use mirrors like a proper driver.

Technically, having your eyes open is optional. You gonna skip that too?

Good drivers use all the tools available. Bad drivers make excuses. By all means, carry on making excuses.

The game allows it [because it is not FIA compliant]. If you want to be fast, you exploit it. The game is at fault. What? I'm supposed to not do what everyone else does just to please you?

Not a chance.

Funny how you think this when it comes to being faster, but not when it comes to being a safer driver.

I'd have thought that your arbitrary rules for what a driver with any semblance of talent would do would absolutely include not needing to abuse track limits just because the game is poorly programmed. I mean, doesn't it just show that you're a bad driver that you need to cut the track to keep up?

Or is taking advantage of all the game systems even though they're not true to life now somehow what a good driver does?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

It's getting too much. I've met numerous players getting very angry at perceived bad driving, when it's due to lag or sync issues. Most of the time players block you so you're unable to send a message or a replay. You name gets soiled, presumably permanently. And then being blocked limits your ability to join lobbies.

What's my point? Spreading the word that sometimes an S rated driver isn't a cheat and really are worthy of the S SR rating...

This guy still has me blocked after all this time. I still haven't been able to track him down.



This guy I managed to track down and defused it, but it took a lot of work.

Guessing you don't...but you do realize that lag and sync issues is 9 out of 10 times a you issue right? Especially from the "evidence you showed". Lack of internet on your part or anyone elses is a skill gap.

 

[Umoomoo]

Yep. Simply having something with fast advertised speed doesn’t necessarily make it a “good internet”

Maybe check your connection if you haven’t already and see if that helps at all or gives you anymore info

 

[breeminator]

Just for a bit of fun, and to show how this is how all racing games are and will be in perpetuity unless we can crack superluminal data transfer, here's an incident from Rennsport's ESL R1 (which uses fixed servers) Fall Season Round 2 final race four weeks back:

Some level of imperfection in lag handling is inevitable, as it's impossible to completely accurately predict the future inputs of players, but the specific problem shown in the OP's first video isn't inevitable.

 

[Famine]

Some level of imperfection in lag handling is inevitable, as it's impossible to completely accurately predict the future inputs of players, but the specific problem shown in the OP's first video isn't inevitable.

In a peer-to-peer, public lobby - only as strong as its weakest link - and without region- or console-segregation (and despite his exhortation otherwise, the only other player in that lobby to openly share their profile has only played the PS4 version of GT7), it pretty much is. And again, despite insistence otherwise, I regularly participated in GT Sport lobby races where that particular incident would be so low on the list of the crazy **** that went on that nobody would even notice.

GT7 is no worse in that regard, unless you start cross-generationing it and then it can be unplayable.

I do seem to recall someone kicking off about it before, and insisting that everyone in the lobby had optimised, wired connections and only played on PS5 (I asked how they knew and they never gave an answer). It's readily apparent that's not the case here.

 

[shadow0460]

Dude, I've pressed you hard down the Mulsanne in a 787B. Your car was all over the place. I assumed it was because I have 5G internet, not fiber, and... key point here... stayed just far away from you to avoid a crash no matter where your car jumped to. Is that why you won? I don't know. My response to losing that race was the exact same as getting jacked on the Sardegna CE: practice and get better. I had some of my best racing following both events, including sitting on the poke at Le Mans and four nice gold trophies where it says "Sardegna Road Track A Circuit Experience."
Lag and cheating are a part of online gaming, and YOUR response is NOT someone else's fault! Report it and move on. If the problem persists, run different races, play at different times, run some single player for a couple weeks, etc.
You wouldn't drive your real life car in a way that something beyond your control, however unlikely it is, would cause a crash, would you? If the guy in front of you is drunk or driving dangerously, do you rush to pass him? If someone behind you is driving aggressively wouldn't you turn off to get away from them, or would you just let them ram you? Do you even look behind you when you drive??
Lag works the same way, and you must factor it into any online game. If you don't, YOU are at fault for the results. If that makes you angry, YOU are responsible for controlling that. If you don't like GT7, then you shouldn't play it. Maybe Stray is more to your liking?
Who changed the CE times? PD did.
Who got on here and complained about it? I did.
Who made a fool of me over it? I did.
Who actually did something and re ran the CE to 0.1 seconds of their original time? I did.
How many of those can the developers control? One for sure, but I can find a hundred ways of making myself look ridiculous online. Griping about in game lag falls second only to driving a pink and hot green 787B with Elmo and Miss Piggy on the front.
EDIT: I do agree on the radar for two reasons. #A, find me a radar in a stock Sambabus or a stock Raptor. I'll wait. #2, that MFD is also used to check weather and change fuel maps. #D, the entire MFD can be shut off to make the game more difficult, thus forcing you to hone your mirror/turn your head and physically look skills.

 

[Revengel]

EDIT: I do agree on the radar for two reasons. #A, find me a radar in a stock Sambabus or a stock Raptor. I'll wait. #2, that MFD is also used to check weather and change fuel maps. #D, the entire MFD can be shut off to make the game more difficult, thus forcing you to hone your mirror/turn your head and physically look skills.

VR driver here.

The MFD display can be shut off to increase immersion; I do this myself when I'm just driving at the end of my day for fun.

However, when I'm driving with other racers I try to use the radar for the following reason: there are no spotters in the game. I use my mirrors, turn my head (especially helpful for hairpins like Deep Forest) as well as my headphones. Lemme tell you, that AMG GT3 is louder than any other car on track and I can often hear when they're getting close to me.

I still use radar because I don't have a spotter who's telling me if someone is closing on my rear. It's an added feature that hopefully keeps me from ruining someone else's race . . . or someone else ruining mine.

 

[shadow0460]

VR driver here.

The MFD display can be shut off to increase immersion; I do this myself when I'm just driving at the end of my day for fun.

However, when I'm driving with other racers I try to use the radar for the following reason: there are no spotters in the game. I use my mirrors, turn my head (especially helpful for hairpins like Deep Forest) as well as my headphones. Lemme tell you, that AMG GT3 is louder than any other car on track and I can often hear when they're getting close to me.

I still use radar because I don't have a spotter who's telling me if someone is closing on my rear. It's an added feature that hopefully keeps me from ruining someone else's race . . . or someone else ruining mine.

No kidding on that AMG, it sounds like an approaching tornado. I can easily hear it over any 26B engine, and those definitely won't sing me a lullaby.
I use the track map in single player to tell when I'm getting close to AI cars. It's not as detailed as the leaderboard, but I don't really need anything in or on the VR display other than what's required to go insanely fast.

 

[Bimmy540]

This dinosaur of a forum did something weird so I deleted it. Update to something more currant. 🤣

 

[Nebuc72]

Gran Turismo 7 is the worst online experience I've had in a long time. If it's not the lag because someone has poverty connection, it's dirty drivers or having to wait longer for races, than you actually get to race. It's like this game was made in 2010 or something. Imagine playing other online AAA titles and experiencing this crap without the developer even mentioning it's a probl

Ok I imagined it, now what?

 

[SU_Tempest]

This dinosaur of a forum did something weird so I deleted it. Update to something more currant. 🤣

GTP saves posts in progress - which is a fairly modern convenience, as far as forums go... Did you accidentally send an unfinished draft? It happens sometimes.

 

[TumeK5]

Track limits. The game allows it [because it is not FIA compliant]. If you want to be fast, you exploit it. The game is at fault. What?

Okay, but you going all four wheels off track contradicts what you famously stated

 

[ImaRobot]

This dinosaur of a forum did something weird so I deleted it. Update to something more currant. 🤣

It's more likely user error than anything the forum did.