Is GT6 too easy?

[guywithanAE86]

I wouldn't say it's easy. Then again I'm not that good so I guess it's a sign when I struggle to win in the GT500 tournament. Granted, PD keep messing with the AI so I'm not sure whether I'm getting faster or not lol.

I'm a drifter, not much of a racer lol.

 

[kilesa4568]

@Voodoovaj

I think you can see how the AI react when you set too high a pace in B-Spec and the "Push it hard!" pace setting. In a normal car with a decent amount of power, they can't hold the racing line, often over shoot the sharper corners and race cars are even worse. Put harder compound tires on and it's carnage as they just can't cope. I'd imagine it would be the same if you asked the single player AI to set that same pace.

Perhaps B-Spec is coded differently (with regards pace) but I doubt that's the case.

 

[FS7]

I played career races using cars on the same level of the AI. I even made an event list showing the PP limits & the PP of the fastest AI car in each event so that people could have a better idea on which car to use for each event.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gran-turismo-6-career-races-list.291309/page-9#post-9720732

If a player starts a race in last place far behind the leader, and manages to pass every AI car cleanly in a few laps with all aids off and using the same car the AI is using then that's a clear sign that the game is too easy. The racing format needs to be adjusted to match what happens in real races and the AI needs to be improved (have the option to choose AI difficulty like other games do). Having an option to setup all AI opponents to use competitive cars would be good too, FM4 had that and it made career races a lot more interesting.

 

[Voodoovaj]

@Imari Have you even cracked the game open to look at what it's doing? I have.

You say you want sliders so it can match your pace, but what is your pace? Is your pace the same as my pace? What about @Johnnypenso ? is it the same as his? All I am saying it that sliders aren't going to solve the problem because it's a different issue that you think it is.

Anyway, I actually bothered to spend some time watching the AI in the B-spec mode. I tested A-spec and B-spec and it doesn't seem that the AI does anything different in either mode.

Here's what I can see is happening (anyone can go look for themselves, it's REALLY easy to spot it). The AI simply sorts itself out based on the ability of the car they are driving and a % of maximum corner speed. That's all it does. I've watched it not care about me at all. I watched it not care about my B-spec driver at all. The AI is apparently oblivious to not only the player, but also the other drivers. It path finds around them, but it doesn't care what position it is in or what position they are in. I can keep looking but, I have checked races in all the license tiers and the same behaviour persists.

It looks like the % increases with each license. This is why a slider won't work. It will increase the corner speed %, but they still won't care about you as a player. They won't fight you for position. They still won't be able to match your pace.

The rubber band that you are all hating on, is not presently implemented in the current iteration of GT6 as far as I can seen. That's probably why it sucks compared to any other racer out there. As I said in a previous post, the rubber band is the way to go in racing games. All those games that you guys quoted, where you loved the AI, are probably using the rubber band approach and you simply can't tell. It's not hard to hide it if it's set up right. It also has this great side effect of always being just right for almost any player.

That would be why "all" other games seem to do it right. A rubber band approach has been the racing game best practice forever, and GT isn't using it. Someone decided to do "better" AI for GT6 that doesn't cheat. What we have is the result of that. Frankly, this is really disappointing to find.

Don't just read this and flame me, go have have a look.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

@Voodoovaj Are you saying that GT6 doesn't have rubber banding? I would have to very much disagree.

 

[Imari]

@Imari Have you even cracked the game open to look at what it's doing? I have.

If by "the game" you mean Gran Turismo 6, no. I don't have a modded PS3. I'm observing the behaviour of the game as I play it.

If you want to post relevant parts of the code, then by all means do so and we can talk about it.

You say you want sliders so it can match your pace, but what is your pace? Is your pace the same as my pace? What about @Johnnypenso ? is it the same as his? All I am saying it that sliders aren't going to solve the problem because it's a different issue that you think it is.

Are you reading what I'm saying?

Everything I've written has acknowledged that the fundamental problem is that players are different. That what one player finds challenging, another finds trivial, and a third finds impossible.

Sliders allow each player to adjust for their own level of challenge.

I don't see how you can recognise that each player requires a different level of challenge, and yet fail to see how this would work.

Tell me, have you ever played a game with difficulty settings?

The rubber band that you are all hating on, is not presently implemented in the current iteration of GT6 as far as I can seen.

You're wrong.

All those games that you guys quoted, where you loved the AI, are probably using the rubber band approach and you simply can't tell. It's not hard to hide it if it's set up right. It also has this great side effect of always being just right for almost any player.

No, they're not.

Because they have difficulty settings right out in the open, that generate visible changes in driver speed. They may have a rubber band effect as well, but it's effect is minor compared to the effect of changing the AI difficulty setting from "Easy" to "Medium" to "Hard".

Go and play some other driving games. I gave you a massive list. Try changing difficulty settings on some of them and observe the difference in AI speeds.

A rubber band approach has been the racing game best practice forever, and GT isn't using it.

No, it hasn't. Yes, it is.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ai-slow-down-to-let-you-win.292661/

Read some of the stuff in here. If you think that they've changed it in a recent patch, you'll need to establish that on your own.

Don't just read this and flame me, go have have a look.

I'm not flaming you, you're just wrong.

If you want to convince anyone, you're going to have to provide some proof. There's lots of videos of AI backing off to let the player past, and timings of the AI slowing down until the player gets in front then suddenly finding ten seconds a lap.

That's rubber banding, the AI has a simply enormous range of potential speeds that it can use to attempt to allow the player to win while trying to disguise that it's done so. GT has no other method of altering the AI pace.

Other games may vary the speed of the car according to the player's position, but the effect is trivially small compared to the effect of the difficulty settings that the games provide, hence the AI behaviour in those games is not dominated by the rubber band effect.

 

[JayOTT]

It wouldn't have taken much to make the career mode races feel more realistic and fun to play;

- No rubber-banding, allowing the AI to drive consistent lap times. With a few exceptions (shifter karts at GT arena being one), most players would still be able to best the AI through either skill or the PP limit allowing them to use a faster car. Besides, a better alternative to rubber-banding is;

- Difficulty selection in Career mode. A simple Beginner/Intermediate/Professional system like in arcade mode, with Beginner equating to the AI's pace when you're chasing towards the end of the race, and Professional equating to the AI's pace when you're leading the race, in the current rubber-band system the game has. Intermediate would obviously fall in-between these extremes. Ideally I'd have offline credit winnings be affected by difficulty level rather than the login bonus as an incentive to play the higher difficulties (online credit winnings would still be affected by the login bonus).

- Grid starts for most races, with bunched up single or double file rolling starts for championships and/or circuits where rolling starts are the norm in real life. It would make the first few corners of each race interesting with the added bonus of making the race as a whole not feel like a rabbit chase, even if the player would likely still have to come from the back to win.

- Randomised AI grid positions for all races. Having the AI fight amongst themselves would make races feel more alive, and the easiest way to do that is to have some of the higher PP cars buried in the lower half of the field forcing them to come back through the field much like yourself. Speaking of making the AI fight amongst themselves;

- Better equalization of AI fields. In championships that weren't based off of equalised real-life championships (NASCAR, Super GT), or otherwise designed to be one make (Karting), there were many instances where one AI car was much faster or much slower than the rest, and in general there was a large performance spread between the faster cars and the slower ones in the AI pool for each race series. A better effort to make the gulf between the fastest AI and the slowest AI in each race series smaller, combined with the aforementioned randomised grid positions, would've made single player races very interesting...

 

[Voodoovaj]

@Voodoovaj Are you saying that GT6 doesn't have rubber banding? I would have to very much disagree.

I am saying that it wasn't in any of the races I checked last night in a-spec and b-spec.

It might have been there at one time, and It might be there is some cases, but I couldn't trigger it.

Arcade mode maybe?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Maybe to make things simple, let's call rubberband a dynamic speed AI and what some wants is preset speed AI selected as difficulty level. The preset will stay constant in speed during the race ( not dynamic ) but can be set from slow ( easy ) to very quick ( expert ), maybe add a little bit of variance among the field. GT6 has dynamic AI speed that can adapt to the players speed. Are these correct ?

Say if we have in GT6 preset speed AI and players can choose before a race the preset speed of the AI drivers to compete with, will the race runs realistically ? Consider the car list in each race, the PP system, and the tuning aspect as the AI seems to have limited access to tuned cars. PD will need specific tune for each car covering all tracks and tire level just to make the AI preset works, correct ? or the AI is imply in God mode and can drive any car to preset speed ?

 

[TurismoBad]

I downloaded GT PSP to check something...

So far I tested only one car on one track but the AI in both games produced the same lap time. I'll try with other cars and tracks.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Say if we have in GT6 preset speed AI and players can choose before a race the preset speed of the AI drivers to compete with, will the race runs realistically ? Consider the car list in each race, the PP system, and the tuning aspect as the AI seems to have limited access to tuned cars. PD will need specific tune for each car covering all tracks and tire level just to make the AI preset works, correct ? or the AI is imply in God mode and can drive any car to preset speed ?

What it needs is more care and effort put into testing the specific combinations of cars and tracks before events are released, with small adjustments made as necessary. The game has 1200 cars, you can't tell me that organizing a 500PP race on Sports Hards and getting the field all within 1 or 2 seconds can be all that difficult, given a day or two to test the cars out and access to a growing database of car performance. Or making a GT500 race with all the cars within a second or two is that difficult. I'm pretty sure I could do this and be pretty close from the start with no testing at all. A resource like @sparkytooth 's Laguna database would be quite handy for something like this. You could even get community support for putting these challenges together. There are many ways to do this effectively.

The cars can conform to ingame physics and still be fast, other games have no trouble doing this. PD's approach seems to be throwing darts at a dartboard and any car within 50pp of the target gets in and that's not good enough IMO, for 2015 and next gen. Make the cars close in pace, and allow the difficulty slider to change the overall pace and the number of mistakes made throughout the field. Expert difficulty means the pace is high and few, if any mistakes are made at the front of the field, one or two at the back. Amateur means the pace is slower overall, mainly in cornering and exit speeds obviously, and relatively more mistakes are made both at the front and back of the field. Include sliders for aggression, errors etc. Works for everybody.

 

[Voodoovaj]

If by "the game" you mean Gran Turismo 6, no. I don't have a modded PS3. I'm observing the behaviour of the game as I play it.

Play is what I meant. I had no idea whether you actually played this game or simply got your thrills by hassling me.

Are you reading what I'm saying?

You are obviously not read what I am saying. Sliders are a cool feature. I love adjustable difficulty. I think they are, as the kids say, DA BOMB.

I am just saying it isn't going to fix this game that we are discussing because of how the system works.

You're wrong.

Of course I am. Btw, I spend my career designing console video game. For the last for years, I have specialized in fixing other peoples messed up games.

It's just my opinion, that sliders won't work. Just my professional opinion.

Modded GT5's reveal that when you increased the difficult (the hidden sliders that exist) the game just picked higher PP cars relative to you. I have no reason to believe that system has been supplanted by something else.

So, I will express my opinion again that difficult sliders will not work to fix this game. If everyone cries for them, they will get added, but they will not fix the game and everyone will still be upset at the experience.

No, it hasn't. Yes, it is.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ai-slow-down-to-let-you-win.292661/

Read some of the stuff in here. If you think that they've changed it in a recent patch, you'll need to establish that on your own.

I remember there being a HORRIBLE rubber band effect when this game came out. it was one of the worst I have ever seen.

I didn't see it last night after several hours of testing.

I can't say why. Maybe I just didn't trigger it right, maybe it's gone.

I'm not flaming you, you're just wrong.

If you want to convince anyone, you're going to have to provide some proof. There's lots of videos of AI backing off to let the player past, and timings of the AI slowing down until the player gets in front then suddenly finding ten seconds a lap.

That's rubber banding, the AI has a simply enormous range of potential speeds that it can use to attempt to allow the player to win while trying to disguise that it's done so. GT has no other method of altering the AI pace.

Other games may vary the speed of the car according to the player's position, but the effect is trivially small compared to the effect of the difficulty settings that the games provide, hence the AI behaviour in those games is not dominated by the rubber band effect.

Again, it was there in other versions. Maybe it has been toned down. I don't want to talk about what is and what is not rubber band AI anymore. What you are all despise is bad rubber band, which everyone hates. Good rubber band is invisible and relies on more than just the player car. That video above is how NOT to do rubber band. You can keep telling me that I don't know what I am talking about.


Given what I know about the GT system, here is what I would suggest gets done.

Invest some time in race set up. GT1 had better race set up than GT6. Heck they even had qualifying. Maybe the designers can have a look at that for inspiration.

Re-implement qualifying for SP, or randomize the start position.

Let the AI use your tunes when available (even your cars). They are currently using cars with no tune, traction control, and no oil change, so they are hamstrung from the start.

Implement a heat system based on race positions. That means that a car will press the pace the further they are from their assigned position. Then, randomly assign finishing positions to the field (I would spread it from 1st-6th). That should get them fighting for position. Let all AI use the B spec system to fight for those positions. The spread I mentioned (1st -6th) will mean several drivers who have a desire for 1st, several for 2nd, etc. This should create fighting through the field and a good variety of experiences.

If all that doesn't work, let the AI use boost as needed to match the player's pace. In my opinion though, those changes should cover it. Just my two cents.

 

[Imari]

Let the AI use your tunes when available (even your cars). They are currently using cars with no tune, traction control, and no oil change, so they are hamstrung from the start.

Implement a heat system based on race positions. That means that a car will press the pace the further they are from their assigned position. Then, randomly assign finishing positions to the field (I would spread it from 1st-6th). That should get them fighting for position. Let all AI use the B spec system to fight for those positions. The spread I mentioned (1st -6th) will mean several drivers who have a desire for 1st, several for 2nd, etc. This should create fighting through the field and a good variety of experiences.

There are all sorts of problems with the race setup and car selection, but that's not AI so let's just pretend that those are solved for the sake of discussion. I agree that they need a lot of work, and between them potentially reduce the severity of a lot of the GT6 problems.

Let us take three test players. Alien Adam, Novice Neil, and Medium Mike. Their names are descriptive of their general skill levels. These players have roughly a six second gap between their average lap times on a standard 90 second circuit.

Even with a heat system, an AI that is able to challenge Alien Adam cannot slow down enough to give Novice Neil a chance without that being obvious that's what it's doing. One does not go from running 90 second laps to running 102 second laps.

If all that doesn't work, let the AI use boost as needed to match the player's pace. In my opinion though, those changes should cover it. Just my two cents.

Ditto. An AI that is challenging for Novice Neil cannot speed up enough to challenge Alien Adam without it being totally obvious.

This is the fundamental problem with the GT6 one size fits all rubber band AI. The enormous variation in pace required to be able to meet any reasonable player makes it totally obvious to anyone paying any sort of attention to their opponents. This is why rubber band type AI has fallen out of favour in sim-type racing games, because sim-racing encourages exactly that sort of attention to one's opponents. It works fine in arcade-type games where the excitement of the experience is the overriding factor. It fails in simulations where the main goal is to produce a believable racing experience.

As you've pointed out before, without any outside input the AI has to wait for the player to actually start racing before it can attempt to judge the player's pace. However, during that time the AI has to be driving as well, presumably at some predetermined pace.

Even if your predetermined pace is equivalent to Medium Mike, and even if the AI can reliably and accurately adapt to exactly the right pace after say, half a lap, the change in pace when it's racing against an Alien Adam or a Novice Neil is going to be obvious.

Instead, you could simply allow the player to set the AI into Alien Adam mode, or Novice Neil mode from the get-go. Why make it difficult when you could simply allow the player to tell the computer what they want?

That's the real question. Why make a one size fits all solution, when you could simply allow the player to tell the computer what they want? Why have this complex system that may or may not work, when you can simply leave the job to the player and have guaranteed satisfaction?

 

[Voodoovaj]

Let us take three test players. Alien Adam, Novice Neil, and Medium Mike. Their names are descriptive of their general skill levels. These players have roughly a six second gap between their average lap times on a standard 90 second circuit.

Even with a heat system, an AI that is able to challenge Alien Adam cannot slow down enough to give Novice Neil a chance without that being obvious that's what it's doing. One does not go from running 90 second laps to running 102 second laps.

Ah, but there is the smoke and mirrors that is video games, Adam, Neil, and Mike will never compare notes unless there is such a thread on a forum like this to allow them to.

Novice Neil might find it tough, but his skills will improve, or maybe not. The people that haven't even unlocked their S levels in GT6 fall into this category. Generally speaking, a novice driver will have more difficulty as the car's pace increases. This is what the current GT difficulty system is based on. It's why the LMP races are in the S class. Simply allowing the player to pick cars over the PP ranking of his opponents, should take care of all of Neil's problems. Neil is not going to venture into the upper levels where the PP range is far more restrictive.

That leaves Mike and Adam to deal with. Neither want to feel that they are "cheating" the AI, nor do they want the AI to "cheat" them.

With the current system, being on completely equal terms with the AI is actually somewhat challenging. Mike will often find that a little tune up on his car will give him the advantage. Adam is fine with equal machinery.

If the B-spec "push the pace" were refined a bit so that it made no mistakes and cornered at say 90% of max, it would be a challenge to get around with equal machinery.

This how I would suggest it works (pseudo code)

IF (current position) > (target position +5) THEN (push the pace), ELSE
IF (current position) > (target position) THEN (push hard), ELSE
(your own pace)

Having it "push hard" when it's closer to it's position will make it appear more pressured. It would be some real door slamming racing.

It COULD blend your best lap into the pace of the AI. That should allow for the difficulty to scale. It would be similar to animation blending. The AI will be default do what it does now, but if you set a faster lap, it will blend your line and inputs into what it is doing.

So let's say the AI brakes at 200 m to a speed of 100k for an apex, and bleeds in full throttle from apex to 100 m

You come along, brake at 150 m to a speed of 110k for the apex and then bleed in full throttle from apex to 75m and in that lap, set fast lap.

The AI can then aggregate that information for it's next lap (in push the pace and push hard scenario). Heck, it can just do that to varying degrees in all scenarios.

(my own pace) + 25% blend
(push the pace) + 50% blend
(push hard) + 75% blend <- because if your are using a tuned car, this dude will crash.


None of this should tax the system, nor should it be too hard to implement if they had a mind to do so. All inputs for every lap are being stored already because that's how the replay system works.

 

[CSLACR]

Alien Adam can beat the AI with equal machinery and down 2-3 tire grades. Currently. On Experrrt.

 

[Voodoovaj]

@Voodoovaj Are you saying that GT6 doesn't have rubber banding? I would have to very much disagree.

I just (as in just before I came to this thread) went to arcade mode, professional, with my RX7 FD (500pp). It's capable of hits 326kph on it's own. On route X.

The opposition did use each other's draft to try to catch up, but none of the cars in the field had the ability to catch or pass me. I was 8+ seconds ahead after one lap. My lead kept growing and growing. I just exitted when I saw that the trend wasn't changing.

I'm not saying it wasn't there, because the video makes it look like it was and I recall it being pretty bad at one point, but right now, in this version (1.16) I am having a hard time triggering it. It makes me believe that, like I stated, the cars are just driving and they are oblivious to what I am doing.

Edit - I've been looking at your video. I'm doubting that what you have there is the AI functioning properly. Up to a certain point, it's just drafting, but then it consistently veers to the right onto the shoulder. If it was properly path finding, it should never venture out there. What I think is happening is that this is an arcade race, where the draft appears to be set to "Strong" by the game. That Supra is hitting a speed that is out of bounds for the car, and the whole thing breaks. Also notice how it is always the same car. It didn't matter that you switched to a new car, the broken AI was still in that Supra. I'm calling this a bug and not intentional AI rubber banding.

The Enzo that comes up along side you in the first few seconds is behaving properly.

Has there been a verified case of rubber banding in the current version?

 

[SVPSkins]

Only your ability is what make it easy or hard. Everyone is different and I've been playing GT since it started and i'm no pro and still find some of the licences and races to be hard.

 

[cjr3559]

Here's my take of the AI. If I follow the 'true line' and 'true braking and acceleration points' (whatever those may be) the AI cuts me some slack and even puts up a decent fight in the closing parts of a race. If I sloppily drive all over the course and bang into other opponents, I *may* finish in the top third, but I'll rarely win with a car on equal pace with the AI.

The more beating and banging and overall poor driving (missing apexes, hitting cars, not driving smoothly with bad throttle/brake inputs) the more the lead 'rabbit' sprints away. Just my observation of the AI in all of the GT games I can remember back to GT2.

 

[Cowboy]

GT6 definitely feels easier than GT5 to me. Maybe its because of the short endurance races.

 

[CSLACR]

I just (as in just before I came to this thread) went to arcade mode, professional, with my RX7 FD (500pp). It's capable of hits 326kph on it's own. On route X.

The opposition did use each other's draft to try to catch up, but none of the cars in the field had the ability to catch or pass me. I was 8+ seconds ahead after one lap. My lead kept growing and growing. I just exitted when I saw that the trend wasn't changing.

I'm not saying it wasn't there, because the video makes it look like it was and I recall it being pretty bad at one point, but right now, in this version (1.16) I am having a hard time triggering it. It makes me believe that, like I stated, the cars are just driving and they are oblivious to what I am doing.

Edit - I've been looking at your video. I'm doubting that what you have there is the AI functioning properly. Up to a certain point, it's just drafting, but then it consistently veers to the right onto the shoulder. If it was properly path finding, it should never venture out there. What I think is happening is that this is an arcade race, where the draft appears to be set to "Strong" by the game. That Supra is hitting a speed that is out of bounds for the car, and the whole thing breaks. Also notice how it is always the same car. It didn't matter that you switched to a new car, the broken AI was still in that Supra. I'm calling this a bug and not intentional AI rubber banding.

The Enzo that comes up along side you in the first few seconds is behaving properly.

Has there been a verified case of rubber banding in the current version?

I'm pretty sure the Supra is a human driver, and we're watching all the AI cars speed up every time he passes them, and slow down the instant he lets them past.

 

[ziRAMPAGEiz]

everything except cart races.

 

[Imari]

Ah, but there is the smoke and mirrors that is video games, Adam, Neil, and Mike will never compare notes unless there is such a thread on a forum like this to allow them to.

But they don't need to. Mike might not be able to tell that there's anything going on, but Adam and Neil can observe the behaviour of the AI in their own game and tell that it's profoundly different to how a real driver would behave. They can observe that the AI reacts very strongly to their own performance (or lack of).

No amount of smoke and mirrors can deal with an AI that changes it's performance to that degree. You're relying on the player being completely oblivious, and that's just not a fair assumption.

How about you answer the question as to why a one size fits all system is preferable to one that allows the player to select their own difficulty and guarantee their satisfaction?

You say you've played games with adjustable difficulty and enjoyed them. You claim it wouldn't work in Gran Turismo. It does work in other racing games. I've played them, other people have played them, they work just fine. Why is Gran Turismo different? I'm yet to see you explain why adjustable difficulty is the wrong choice, you've just deflected each time into talking about other aspects.

Tell me clearly: Why is a one size fits all system a better choice than player set difficulty levels?

 

[Voodoovaj]

You say you've played games with adjustable difficulty and enjoyed them. You claim it wouldn't work in Gran Turismo. It does work in other racing games. I've played them, other people have played them, they work just fine. Why is Gran Turismo different? I'm yet to see you explain why adjustable difficulty is the wrong choice, you've just deflected each time into talking about other aspects.

I'm pretty sure I've stated this a few times already, but I will state it again. The Gran Turismo system deals with difficulty by altering PP of the opponents. For good, bad, or whatever, that is what it does.

Putting adjustable sliders on top of that system doesn't work. In fact, it is already in place in arcade mode. You can choose beginner, intermediate, and professional. If those sliders get implemented in the career mode, the results will be the same. Arcade Mode is proof that the current system is a poor strategy for dealing with changes in difficulty.

There needs to be more there.

THAT is why sliders won't work. That's why I said I would complain if they implemented sliders in career mode. It already doesn't work in arcade mode so it's a useless addition.

I'm pretty sure the Supra is a human driver, and we're watching all the AI cars speed up every time he passes them, and slow down the instant he lets them past.

I stand corrected.

It's pretty subtle though, which explains why I didn't notice it. And it's a poorly chosen method. That isn't the proper way to do a rubber band.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I'm pretty sure I've stated this a few times already, but I will state it again. The Gran Turismo system deals with difficulty by altering PP of the opponents. For good, bad, or whatever, that is what it does.

Putting adjustable sliders on top of that system doesn't work. In fact, it is already in place in arcade mode. You can choose beginner, intermediate, and professional. If those sliders get implemented in the career mode, the results will be the same. Arcade Mode is proof that the current system is a poor strategy for dealing with changes in difficulty.

There needs to be more there.

THAT is why sliders won't work. That's why I said I would complain if they implemented sliders in career mode. It already doesn't work in arcade mode so it's a useless addition.



I stand corrected.

It's pretty subtle though, which explains why I didn't notice it.

There's also AI slider from 1 - 10

 

[Voodoovaj]

There's also AI slider from 1 - 10

Is that the hidden one? I remember playing with it GT5, but did it get exposed somewhere in GT6?

It didn't work well in GT5. IIRC, it just grabbed cars at the upper end of the PP range that your set.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Is that the hidden one? I remember playing with it GT5, but did it get exposed somewhere in GT6?

It didn't work well in GT5. IIRC, it just grabbed cars at the upper end of the PP range that your set.

The Beginner - Intermediate - Professional are the ones that alter AI cars PP level ( also makes and model ), the AI slider 1-10 may have to do with aggressiveness / speed.

 

[Voodoovaj]

The Beginner - Intermediate - Professional are the ones that alter AI cars PP level ( also makes and model ), the AI slider 1-10 may have to do with aggressiveness / speed.

Found it!! I forgot about that one. Mine is already set to 10.

So, yes, without a doubt, sliders will do nothing to help GT6 because the current sliders do nothing to help with GT6.

Alien Adam can beat the AI with equal machinery and down 2-3 tire grades. Currently. On Experrrt.

You might be onto something there. I wonder if the AI feel better when they're on better tires?

I still think a heat system needs to be implemented so they actually race each other.


EDIT - So, here's something interesting. In B-spec, my bob has the ability to be just as dominant. I put him in the iA 15 minute race at Nurb. I gave him my VW VGT, fully tuned, 616pp, SPORTS SOFT tires. Against a field of mostly GT3 cars on Racing Hard (presumably, since that is what their default configuration would be).

Again, the AI doesn't care about fighting for position. It just drives. Bob on the other hand was mopping the floor with them on a "push the pace" setting. He sat in 6th at the end of the first lap. Given that he was at a distinct disadvantage, he should have failed miserably if it were the AI in and of itself that were the issue. But he did great.

Since Bob can go that fast, the others could as well if there were some mechanism to make them do so. Obviously, whatever commands the AI is severely underwhelming if it exists at all beyond that rudimentary rubber band.

 

[CSLACR]

You might be onto something there. I wonder if the AI feel better when they're on better tires?

I still think a heat system needs to be implemented so they actually race each other.

I'm not sure what you mean by heat system. They have temperament currently. Identical to what they had during B-Spec in GT5. (maybe GT6-ified)

I stand corrected.

It's pretty subtle though, which explains why I didn't notice it. And it's a poorly chosen method. That isn't the proper way to do a rubber band.

I would argue the fact that the AI immediately slows down once past you, and immediately speeding up when you pass them is a perfect demonstration of rubber banding. It can't really be any more rubber banded, can it?
I mean, they're holding speed down a multiple-mile long straight below top speed to let you past,

 

[Voodoovaj]

I'm not sure what you mean by heat system. They have temperament currently. Identical to what they had during B-Spec in GT5. (maybe GT6-ified)

I described it in an early post, but essentially there are degrees of behavioral change based on something that is considered "hot" to them. So if they are told to be in first place, but they are in 10th place, their "heat" increases and they try to reduce it.

I would argue the fact that the AI immediately slows down once past you, and immediately speeding up when you pass them is a perfect demonstration of rubber banding. It can't really be any more rubber banded, can it?
I mean, they're holding speed down a multiple-mile long straight below top speed to let you past,

That's the problem, it's the most rudimentary rubber band possible. We're talking 4bit era rubber band. It's actually astonishing that they implemented such an archaic approach.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm pretty sure I've stated this a few times already, but I will state it again. The Gran Turismo system deals with difficulty by altering PP of the opponents. For good, bad, or whatever, that is what it does.

You need to forget what you know about GT AI and start your thought process from scratch. Handicapping your thinking by limiting yourself to PD doing anything in the future the way they do it now, isn't the way forward IMO.

Putting adjustable sliders on top of that system doesn't work. In fact, it is already in place in arcade mode. You can choose beginner, intermediate, and professional. If those sliders get implemented in the career mode, the results will be the same. Arcade Mode is proof that the current system is a poor strategy for dealing with changes in difficulty.

Actually it will.

Step 1. More care could be taken in the car selection and event design process, especially at the higher levels, with cars that are individually selected for events and then tuned by the event creator to be at a selected level of performance, say all cars within 2 seconds in more advanced events at a given lap time.

Step 2. The difficulty slider is applied by the individual player to make the race competitive for him.