Is GT6 too easy?

[ALB123]

Fair enough.

It's enough to really ruin it for me. If I crash on the last lap, I do not want the leader to wait for me. I want to lose, because that's what I earned. When I win, I want to have earned that position by not crashing and driving a hard fast race.

With the rubber band system, I can never really know whether I earned that win or whether it was gifted to me.

I know that there are some people who don't find this a problem and that's fine. But nor is it as simple as saying "you have choices, make it harder for yourself". There is no solution for the problem that people like me face, because the problem is the rubber band.

The ideal solution for people like me is difficulty levels, because then we can set the bar exactly so high, and see if we can jump over it. It's a specific objective challenge. That's what some people like, just as there are others that don't mind how they win as long as they feel that they had a good race.

I'm not arguing for replacing the rubber band for those that like it, but there's no real reason why we can't have both, as far as I can tell.

I know how you feel. I find the rubber-banding to be ridiculous. I will admit that I'm one of those people who has said "Lower the grade of tires you use and run 10% less PP than allowed!", however, I will also admit that all that really does is lengthen how much time it takes to catch the rabbit and eventually pass him for the lead. On a 5 lap race, you might be able to take the lead at some point in the 2nd lap, when adhering to the events guidelines. If you run that same race, but with reduced PP and lower grade tires, it might take you until the end of the 3rd lap, or maybe even the 4th lap to pass the rabbit, but that's only because you're not able to match the lap times you could when running according to the max allowed PP and tires. The rabbit car is still going to drive nice and slow, relatively speaking, until you catch it. Then it will drop the hammer and try to regain the lead.

Admittedly, I don't have any experience with other racing games/sims. Still, I have a hard time believing that it's impossible for PD to give us a more challenging AI. What they've given us in GT6 is beyond pathetic. Have you ever looked at the leader board after a 5 lap A-Spec race? Look at the times of the drivers who finish 10th place or worse. It's like they don't even have any business being on the same race track. And the drivers who finish 5th-9th aren't too much better.

On top of all of this, for some reason PD thinks that Expert Level means 650PP or more (usually). There is no such thing as a 400 or 450PP Expert Level race in Gran Turismo world. Why not? Is PD telling me that the Toyota 86 Race Car Base Model would never be driven by an "Expert" race car driver? It's only 410PP stock, but we all know you can have some wicked racing in that car!

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I know how you feel. I find the rubber-banding to be ridiculous. I will admit that I'm one of those people who has said "Lower the grade of tires you use and run 10% less PP than allowed!", however, I will also admit that all that really does is lengthen how much time it takes to catch the rabbit and eventually pass him for the lead. On a 5 lap race, you might be able to take the lead at some point in the 2nd lap, when adhering to the events guidelines. If you run that same race, but with reduced PP and lower grade tires, it might take you until the end of the 3rd lap, or maybe even the 4th lap to pass the rabbit, but that's only because you're not able to match the lap times you could when running according to the max allowed PP and tires. The rabbit car is still going to drive nice and slow, relatively speaking, until you catch it. Then it will drop the hammer and try to regain the lead.

Admittedly, I don't have any experience with other racing games/sims. Still, I have a hard time believing that it's impossible for PD to give us a more challenging AI. What they've given us in GT6 is beyond pathetic. Have you ever looked at the leader board after a 5 lap A-Spec race? Look at the times of the drivers who finish 10th place or worse. It's like they don't even have any business being on the same race track. And the drivers who finish 5th-9th aren't too much better.

On top of all of this, for some reason PD thinks that Expert Level means 650PP or more (usually). There is no such thing as a 400 or 450PP Expert Level race in Gran Turismo world. Why not? Is PD telling me that the Toyota 86 Race Car Base Model would never be driven by an "Expert" race car driver? It's only 410PP stock, but we all know you can have some wicked racing in that car!

You can lessen the AI slowness by intentionally increase your car power by 50-100HP for a start, then enter the race, revert back the power, now the AI field of cars will always varied from quick to slow, but their power range will be higher that their speed might be closer to your lap times. You can try this and find the sweet spot that match your car power and skill, while still keeping the same tire. Not always work well, but worth a try, if wanted a real challenge, increase 200HP and lower weight by 100kg of your car before entering the race, then bring back the power and weight or keep the weight only ( useful on twisty tracks ). This trick also useful to get certain cars on the grid Best done in arcade races on Pro and max AI setting. A Bathurst race in 5 - 10 laps will be challenging, not just in getting the lead ( which won't be easy as their car now has similar speed on slower corner if done right, while still can outrun you if you are quick enough ), and the AI will usually try to pass you like a mad man

 

[ALB123]

You can lessen the AI slowness by intentionally increase your car power by 50-100HP for a start, then enter the race, revert back the power, now the AI field of cars will always varied from quick to slow, but their power range will be higher that their speed might be closer to your lap times. You can try this and find the sweet spot that match your car power and skill, while still keeping the same tire. Not always work well, but worth a try, if wanted a real challenge, increase 200HP and lower weight by 100kg of your car before entering the race, then bring back the power and weight or keep the weight only ( useful on twisty tracks ). This trick also useful to get certain cars on the grid Best done in arcade races on Pro and max AI setting. A Bathurst race in 5 - 10 laps will be challenging, not just in getting the lead ( which won't be easy as their car now has similar speed on slower corner if done right, while still can outrun you if you are quick enough ), and the AI will usually try to pass you like a mad man

You can only really do that in Arcade Mode races though. I'm fairly certain, with Career Mode and/or Seasonal Events, the AI field is pre-determined to a degree. But yes, with Arcade Mode races you make the game choose more powerful cars, based on what car you've selected, and then lower your cars power to make it so all of the AI is driving more powerful cars than you.

 

[FS7]

The "use lower grade tyres/car with lower PP" excuse is a very lame one, and it doesn't justify the AI in GT6 being so bad. There should be an option to adjust AI difficulty like most racing games have been doing for the past decade.
Using lower grade tyres or using a car below the level of the AI's cars won't make them go faster, neither will it fix the issues with catch-the-rabbit race format or unbalanced car grid.

For future GT games PD needs to implement a proper realistic race format (optional free practice & qualifying, standing starts/normal rolling starts depending on the car class), balanced AI grid with every AI opponent using competitive cars that are as close as possible to the performance limit of the event, and option to adjust AI difficulty (pace & aggressiveness) so that they're somewhat close to the player's skill level.
Other games have done all of that, there's no reason for GT to stay behind the times and not include all of that stuff in future GT games.

 

[cjr3559]

The "use lower grade tyres/car with lower PP" excuse is a very lame one, and it doesn't justify the AI in GT6 being so bad. There should be an option to adjust AI difficulty like most racing games have been doing for the past decade.
Using lower grade tyres or using a car below the level of the AI's cars won't make them go faster, neither will it fix the issues with catch-the-rabbit race format or unbalanced car grid.

For future GT games PD needs to implement a proper realistic race format (optional free practice & qualifying, standing starts/normal rolling starts depending on the car class), balanced AI grid with every AI opponent using competitive cars that are as close as possible to the performance limit of the event, and option to adjust AI difficulty (pace & aggressiveness) so that they're somewhat close to the player's skill level.
Other games have done all of that, there's no reason for GT to stay behind the times and not include all of that stuff in future GT games.

I'm just the opposite and think having difficulty 'sliders' is lame. Everyone has their own opinion, but for the 'slider' crowd, how do you go about creating something like that? Every game I've ever played (racer or not) that has 'easy, medium and hard' difficulty options is implemented in a crude and unsophisticated way. In a shooter, the enemies basically are marksmen or Imperial Storm Troopers. In a racing game, the other drivers either are out for blood or they can't drive.

While I agree about practice, qualifying, and standing starts in GT needs to make a dire comeback, the current format works fine for me. The ultimate would be an event creator, but I guess that's what online is all about, if you can find events that you like.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I would take difficulty sliders any day over no option at all which is set to slow and drunk.

You know it's too easy when you have a car that is equal to or less than the AI, and can win driving entirely in reverse with no contact.

 

[carracerptp]

At no point in GT6 did I get the feeling of hating and loving a hard race/challenge/car so much I couldn't stop pressing restart, that's I loved in GT4 and still had glimpses of in GT5.

At first I thought it was just me getting older and "better" at the series but I have been playing GT4 again and yep, it's still hard.

I don't think GT6 was made for the same people that liked GT4. At first I liked GT6 more than 5 but unlike 5 or 4, I didn't have any interest in playing the "career" more than I had to.

Physics wise, speed is too easy. The optimal slip angle is much narrower in real life than in GT6.

For race tires, 100% YES, for road tires, I had a set of all season tires that in an autocross environment needed a lot of slip angle to be fast.

 

[Imari]

In a racing game, the other drivers either are out for blood or they can't drive.

That's a different issue entirely. It's mostly possible to separate pure speed from the way the drivers treat the player, although it is necessary to have a certain amount of aggression so that the player can't just block the AI all day.


Although I do find that less experienced drivers consider fast drivers to be overly aggressive sometimes simply because they don't have the foresight and racecraft to see when someone is going to make a move on them, and so are surprised when it happens.

For example, if I can see someone coming up behind me as I fly down the straight towards a big stop, I know that he's probably going to try for the overtake. I can go defensive early, or I can plan a non-standard line to take advantage of my opponents compromised entry.

Less experienced drivers might be focussing on their own braking zone, and so be surprised when the opponent pulls alongside under braking. They might call that overly aggressive, especially when the opponent bumps them on the apex as they're likely to do when they haven't been given enough room, and as they absolutely should because they're entitled to their place on the road.

When playing against good AI, you have to use racecraft every bit as much as when you're racing against real humans. It's how the AI knows what moves it can or can't make. Don't want the AI diving you? Shut the door early, just as you would against an aggressive human.

Admittedly there are some games in which the AI just sucks, and no amount of racecraft will save you. But I think that there are a lot of games that get written off as having bad AI just because the player is expecting the AI to give them free rein. That's not how it works, it's a competition and if you don't want your opponent to do something you have to find a way to stop them.

 

[sk8er913]

That's a different issue entirely. It's mostly possible to separate pure speed from the way the drivers treat the player, although it is necessary to have a certain amount of aggression so that the player can't just block the AI all day.


Although I do find that less experienced drivers consider fast drivers to be overly aggressive sometimes simply because they don't have the foresight and racecraft to see when someone is going to make a move on them, and so are surprised when it happens.

For example, if I can see someone coming up behind me as I fly down the straight towards a big stop, I know that he's probably going to try for the overtake. I can go defensive early, or I can plan a non-standard line to take advantage of my opponents compromised entry.

Less experienced drivers might be focussing on their own braking zone, and so be surprised when the opponent pulls alongside under braking. They might call that overly aggressive, especially when the opponent bumps them on the apex as they're likely to do when they haven't been given enough room, and as they absolutely should because they're entitled to their place on the road.

When playing against good AI, you have to use racecraft every bit as much as when you're racing against real humans. It's how the AI knows what moves it can or can't make. Don't want the AI diving you? Shut the door early, just as you would against an aggressive human.

Admittedly there are some games in which the AI just sucks, and no amount of racecraft will save you. But I think that there are a lot of games that get written off as having bad AI just because the player is expecting the AI to give them free rein. That's not how it works, it's a competition and if you don't want your opponent to do something you have to find a way to stop them.

Some high ranked members from GTPlanet Endurance series decided to go the the 'ring to beat noobs by a huge gap. Instead all of us quit by the time we got to Flugplatz. The first driver didn't enter the race, the second driver was ran off a road by a GTR, and exited the lobby. The third driver was ran off the track at about the same time as the second driver, and then crashed on their own in Flugplatz and then exited the lobby. !!!!!

Inexperienced drivers are far more aggressive than experienced ones, but I am not completely sure if that is intentional or not.

 

[Imari]

Inexperienced drivers are far more aggressive than experienced ones, but I am not completely sure if that is intentional or not.

A bit of both I think.

Good racecraft is much harder to learn than good car control. If you make a mistake controlling your car, the feedback is usually immediate. Put your foot down too hard and you spin. Turn in at the wrong time and you're off-line. Brake too late and you're in the gravel pit.

If you make a mistake with your racecraft, the effects may not show up until a lot later, if at all. Choosing the wrong defensive line may not have any effect if the opponent isn't good enough to capitalise. Not choosing a defensive line at best doesn't have effects until several seconds later, as you really need to make the move well before the braking zone. Choosing when to make a pass on an opponent, especially in high aero cars, usually means that you have to set up the pass several corners before it actually happens, because you can't continually run right behind them in dirty air.

Racecraft also requires a sense of timing and experience that you need to spend a fair amount of time developing. Where does the opponent want to go? How do I best stop that? Should I stop that, or should I just run my own line? When should I just let them go and come back at them later? How do I deal with it when someone does something unexpected? How does my opponent's style differ from mine, and will I have an advantage later in the race?

All inexperienced drivers know is what they learn against AI, and what they see on TV highlights. They don't see the careful positioning and strategy that goes into pulling a pass, they just see someone banging it up the inside. So that's what they do, and then get surprised when it doesn't work.

It's very obvious in the rookies leagues of iRacing. To drive there you have to adopt a much more defensive style than in later leagues where people have had to develop their racecraft to get out of rookie. Against rookies, you make defensive moves super early or not at all. You never put yourself on the outside of a corner where you can get punted by either a driving error or random aggression. You never make a move that requires you to go side by side for more than about a second. You pass only when there's an open door and the opponent is totally unable to shut it.

Later on, you can be more decisive and be more wheel to wheel in your racing as people have learned the nuances of give and take. But inexperienced drivers cannot be trusted to have anything more than reflex reactions, which are generally bad for everyone involved.

Racing is chess at 200mph, and sometimes you have to accept your losses and keep playing. Inexperienced drivers don't see that, and will flip the table before they'll let you take their knight.

(If you want to play a fun game, load up some real race footage and watch the battles. Every time you see someone take a non-standard line, pause it and figure out why they made that choice. Something in the information they got up until that point made that a decent decision*, and by figuring out what you can learn their racecraft too.)

(*Don't watch Pastor Maldonado. )

 

[sk8er913]

A bit of both I think.

Good racecraft is much harder to learn than good car control. If you make a mistake controlling your car, the feedback is usually immediate. Put your foot down too hard and you spin. Turn in at the wrong time and you're off-line. Brake too late and you're in the gravel pit.

If you make a mistake with your racecraft, the effects may not show up until a lot later, if at all. Choosing the wrong defensive line may not have any effect if the opponent isn't good enough to capitalise. Not choosing a defensive line at best doesn't have effects until several seconds later, as you really need to make the move well before the braking zone. Choosing when to make a pass on an opponent, especially in high aero cars, usually means that you have to set up the pass several corners before it actually happens, because you can't continually run right behind them in dirty air.

Racecraft also requires a sense of timing and experience that you need to spend a fair amount of time developing. Where does the opponent want to go? How do I best stop that? Should I stop that, or should I just run my own line? When should I just let them go and come back at them later? How do I deal with it when someone does something unexpected? How does my opponent's style differ from mine, and will I have an advantage later in the race?

All inexperienced drivers know is what they learn against AI, and what they see on TV highlights. They don't see the careful positioning and strategy that goes into pulling a pass, they just see someone banging it up the inside. So that's what they do, and then get surprised when it doesn't work.

It's very obvious in the rookies leagues of iRacing. To drive there you have to adopt a much more defensive style than in later leagues where people have had to develop their racecraft to get out of rookie. Against rookies, you make defensive moves super early or not at all. You never put yourself on the outside of a corner where you can get punted by either a driving error or random aggression. You never make a move that requires you to go side by side for more than about a second. You pass only when there's an open door and the opponent is totally unable to shut it.

Later on, you can be more decisive and be more wheel to wheel in your racing as people have learned the nuances of give and take. But inexperienced drivers cannot be trusted to have anything more than reflex reactions, which are generally bad for everyone involved.

Racing is chess at 200mph, and sometimes you have to accept your losses and keep playing. Inexperienced drivers don't see that, and will flip the table before they'll let you take their knight.

(If you want to play a fun game, load up some real race footage and watch the battles. Every time you see someone take a non-standard line, pause it and figure out why they made that choice. Something in the information they got up until that point made that a decent decision*, and by figuring out what you can learn their racecraft too.)

(*Don't watch Pastor Maldonado. )

The part where you said

Racing is chess at 200mph, and sometimes you have to accept your losses and keep playing. Inexperienced drivers don't see that, and will flip the table before they'll let you take their knight.

Amazing stuff. That's what makes racing so much fun and so rewarding when your move ends in a successful overtake against a nearly equal opponent. when you watch it on TV you kind of lose that element unfortunately. That's more true in some racing than others, endurance racing is a game of chess. Where every piece is planned out and executed, although shorter races are only like taking 1 or 2 moves, they really lose a lot of the depth. I really enjoy 24 hour long races, because of the long term strategy that is involved. And how everything you do, even if it seems small and insignificant, at the end, can lead to several minutes of gap. And there's just something special in knowing that is was exactly 1 day long. Short races aren't as deep and strategic, and I find it more difficult to get mentally into those while watching them. It sure is fun for the teams, watching their car; but I really miss that strategy.

Nearly all of GTPlanets users have really good race craft. Looking back at this page, the only one that I recall racing against was @Lewis_Hamilton_ But racecraft wasn't important in that race, because he gained a lead at a rate of nearly 3 seconds per minute.

 

[SVPSkins]

I would take difficulty sliders any day over no option at all which is set to slow and drunk.

You know it's too easy when you have a car that is equal to or less than the AI, and can win driving entirely in reverse with no contact.

 

[Com Fox]

I feel like the reason why it is becoming more easier is due to the online mode becoming more expanded. They make the entire single player easy for newcomers and just have the Pros, go online for "difficulty".

Pokemon seems to be following this mindset too, which is actually kinda funny the more I think about due their similarities in collecting things, competitive leagues, in their 6th Gen/Installment etc.

It definitely is not a good mindset IMO.

 

[sk8er913]

I would take difficulty sliders any day over no option at all which is set to slow and drunk.

You know it's too easy when you have a car that is equal to or less than the AI, and can win driving entirely in reverse with no contact.

I thought I had a skill or talent for driving, but I don't compared to that. I'm afraid to even attempt it.

 

[FS7]

I'm just the opposite and think having difficulty 'sliders' is lame. Everyone has their own opinion, but for the 'slider' crowd, how do you go about creating something like that? Every game I've ever played (racer or not) that has 'easy, medium and hard' difficulty options is implemented in a crude and unsophisticated way. In a shooter, the enemies basically are marksmen or Imperial Storm Troopers. In a racing game, the other drivers either are out for blood or they can't drive.

AI that's either too good or too bad is something you see in bad games. A good game will provide enough difficulty levels so that you get to play against AI that's close to your skill level. In PCars difficulty ranges between 0-100%, I use 60-80% depending on car/track. In Race Pro & F1 games there's 5 levels of difficulty, I generally choose the middle one. I don't always win in those games but I have challenging fun races, something that GT6 is missing in its offline races.

 

[RedTailBoa]

I would say yes especially after b spec. Its fairly easy to complete 90% of the game using b spec in less than a week.

 

[Shahar]

I know it was already discussed here but I conducted a small experiment with the AI:

I did the Mission race B-5 twice(with the GT-Rs at Silverstone GP).

The first time I raced as fast as I could.
My lap was 2:18 ,the AI's 2:21.


The second time I did a slow lap, so the AI was driving alone.
My lap was 2:50, the AI's 2:37.

A 16 seconds difference!

 

[VBR]

I know it was already discussed here but I conducted a small experiment with the AI:

I did the Mission race B-5 twice(with the GT-Rs at Silverstone GP).

The first time I raced as fast as I could.
My lap was 2:18 ,the AI's 2:21.


The second time I did a slow lap, so the AI was driving alone.
My lap was 2:50, the AI's 2:37 !!!

A 16 second difference!

Rubber banding at it's worse.

 

[sk8er913]

Rubber banding at it's worst.

We are so fast that the AIs rubber band snaps. I hope GT7 has good AI, but I don't really care about AI at this point. Nothing can replace the experience of racing with the best drivers in the world in organized online events.

 

[Fangin4Pinks]

Well I'm really sick of playing the catch up game with gutless AI in every offline race. What I want most in this game is to have the classic standing starts with tough AI opponents, maybe even qualifying. Miss you GT1+2! I get that the PS3 cant process all those cars wheel spinning in one place though.

 

[rev_hard]

Auto companies must be paying PD to 'give away' their cars as prizes to serve as online advertisement. I don't think PD can take their money and then make gold license/mission times sooooo difficult that majority of GT buyers will not get to drive those promoted car models. Money talks, after all.

 

[sk8er913]

Auto companies must be paying PD to 'give away' their cars as prizes to serve as online advertisement. I don't think PD can take their money and then make gold license/mission times sooooo difficult that majority of GT buyers will not get to drive those promoted car models. Money talks, after all.

What? I can destroy gold time by at least 1 second on pretty much every license in my first attempt? I beat the NSX slalom one (18.7 seconds target I think) by nearly 3 seconds.

 

[Johnnypenso]

What? I can destroy gold time by at least 1 second on pretty much every license in my first attempt? I beat the NSX slalom one (18.7 seconds target I think) by nearly 3 seconds.

He's not saying the tests are hard, he's saying they are so easy because PD is in the pockets of manufacturers and made them so easy to ensure you would be driving their cars. That's why the tests aren't difficult like they used to be, because the game is catering to manufacturer's, rather than gamer's needs.

 

[TornadoFIAGTS]

I have recently gotten GT6 & so far it is noticeably easier than the last 3 main GT titles. I have been pretty much been getting all gold within my first 3 tries. From which only 2 races required me to try 3 times before getting the gold. The vast majority of races I get gold on the first try. It feels really weird since going back to GT5 for similar races & that they are still moderately difficult. Hopefully PD doesn't continue this trend.

 

[sk8er913]

Drifting in LFS is too easy, GT6 is moderate, rfactor is impossible.

 

[EHK82]

I played Gran Turismo since the first Gran Turismo for PS One and I think that A.I. was poor since the first game in the simulation modes and even on arcade modes. The challenges are the races or time trials on seasonal events and on GT6 some of the license tests. Some of these events are barely impossible to accomplish even using a steering wheel. It seems that races on simulation/career/A-Spec modes are on the game to help you earn money to buy cars and, if the game A.I. were a little bit harder it would dissapoint some occasional players.

 

[psball]

I also have been playing GT since the first one on PS One & while I do agree that most of is possible to accomplish & still find some aspects difficult for me. While I certainly would not consider myself an expert, I think that I'm clearly in the average range! The thing that concerns me is that some people will be left frustrated if it is made more difficult. It is also possible for the "experts" to use cars with less hp, etc. to give themselves more of a challenge if that is what they desire. (Just "my" opinion!)

 

[Johnnypenso]

I also have been playing GT since the first one on PS One & while I do agree that most of is possible to accomplish & still find some aspects difficult for me. While I certainly would not consider myself an expert, I think that I'm clearly in the average range! The thing that concerns me is that some people will be left frustrated if it is made more difficult. It is also possible for the "experts" to use cars with less hp, etc. to give themselves more of a challenge if that is what they desire. (Just "my" opinion!)

That's what difficulty sliders are for.

 

[eran0004]

I have recently gotten GT6 & so far it is noticeably easier than the last 3 main GT titles. I have been pretty much been getting all gold within my first 3 tries. From which only 2 races required me to try 3 times before getting the gold. The vast majority of races I get gold on the first try. It feels really weird since going back to GT5 for similar races & that they are still moderately difficult. Hopefully PD doesn't continue this trend.

Don't know which tunes you're using, but in GT6 - especially in the lower classes of racing - the performance limits are higher than what the competition is using. Drop the PP by 50 - 100 points and the races gets more challenging.

 

[TVR27]

I feel like the reason why it is becoming more easier is due to the online mode becoming more expanded. They make the entire single player easy for newcomers and just have the Pros, go online for "difficulty".

Pokemon seems to be following this mindset too, which is actually kinda funny the more I think about due their similarities in collecting things, competitive leagues, in their 6th Gen/Installment etc.

It definitely is not a good mindset IMO.

I agree GT6 and Pokemon are to easy now.