Is GT6 too easy?

[Voodoovaj]

So, on the topic of scaling difficulty.

I reran the race I posted earlier (GT500 iA race) but this time, I put SPORTS HARD on the car. So, three tire grades below the AI.

As with the first race, It too all five laps to get to the podium and I passed for the lead midway through the last lap. So, despite increasing the difficulty for myself and running slower lap times, the AI scaled down to match. I can only assume that it also scales up automatically.

SO, the problem that exists is not scaling difficulty (we have BOTH sliders and dynamic difficulty). The problem is that:

1 - They don't fight each other for position.
2 - It appears they are tuned to allow the user to win, barring calamity.

 

[Voodoovaj]

You need to forget what you know about GT AI and start your thought process from scratch. Handicapping your thinking by limiting yourself to PD doing anything in the future the way they do it now, isn't the way forward IMO.

It's just EXTREMELY unlikely that PD will throw out the entire AI system and rewrite it for a future update. Maybe for GT7 (maybe) but we aren't discussing GT7.

Actually it will.

Step 1. More care could be taken in the car selection and event design process, especially at the higher levels, with cars that are individually selected for events and then tuned by the event creator to be at a selected level of performance, say all cars within 2 seconds in more advanced events at a given lap time.

Step 2. The difficulty slider is applied by the individual player to make the race competitive for him.

Did you miss the part where the game ALREADY HAS SLIDERS?

Go to OPTIONS - ARCADE - there is a slider for AI aggression.

Then go to Arcade where you can choose from three difficulties.

If you can explain how MORE sliders will help, please elaborate.

It needs a rewrite to achieve what you are requesting.

 

[kilesa4568]

They can't really look at a difficulty slider when they insist on having rolling starts. Always playing catch up to a car with a sector lead. Stupid way to do things. It takes so much of the realism away.

(Fair enough if qualifying was involved though...)

 

[Pootis]

GT6 is a little easy but there's the Shifter Kart races, license tests S4 and S5, and some others.

I would say that GT6 is a little more difficult than GT5 because GT5 didn't have a PP limit for most race events. That made it pathetically noob-friendly if you had the x2011 (if you bought one of the DLC's). The only time when a race in GT5 was challenging was if it was restricted to a certain model or era. This is what GT6 corrected so that every race had a PP limit in career mode.

AI still sucks though.

 

[Imari]

I'm pretty sure I've stated this a few times already, but I will state it again. The Gran Turismo system deals with difficulty by altering PP of the opponents. For good, bad, or whatever, that is what it does.

Putting adjustable sliders on top of that system doesn't work. In fact, it is already in place in arcade mode. You can choose beginner, intermediate, and professional. If those sliders get implemented in the career mode, the results will be the same. Arcade Mode is proof that the current system is a poor strategy for dealing with changes in difficulty.

There needs to be more there.

THAT is why sliders won't work. That's why I said I would complain if they implemented sliders in career mode. It already doesn't work in arcade mode so it's a useless addition.

So in the middle of the race when the AI speeds up or slows down, Gran Turismo is doing this by dynamically altering the PP of the car the AI is driving?

Seems unnecessarily complicated.

Their Arcade mode difficulty is certainly scaled by PP, but as others have pointed out there's also the aggressiveness scale, as well as the rubber band effect, and the B Spec pace up mode (which may or may not be the same as the rubber band effect, since they don't seem to have a higher crash rate under rubber band).

I think there's more going on here than you think there is. Polyphony have more tools at their disposal than just PP.

That's the problem, it's the most rudimentary rubber band possible. We're talking 4bit era rubber band. It's actually astonishing that they implemented such an archaic approach.

Hooray! Finally you understand what's going on, and the issue that the rest of us have with the rubber band in GT6.

SO, the problem that exists is not scaling difficulty (we have BOTH sliders and dynamic difficulty).

We have sliders, if you want to call tyre selection that. It's not a functional slider, if the game simply adapts to remove any effect from it.

I don't say I have temperature control if every time I turn the air conditioning up the automatic heating comes on to counteract it.

The problem is that:

1 - They don't fight each other for position.
2 - It appears they are tuned to allow the user to win, barring calamity.

Hooray! Finally you understand what's going on, and the issue that the rest of us have with the AI in GT6.

It's just EXTREMELY unlikely that PD will throw out the entire AI system and rewrite it for a future update. Maybe for GT7 (maybe) but we aren't discussing GT7.

Aren't we?

We're not talking about patching GT6, there's no way Polyphony will spend time on that. It's taken them 15 months to do B Spec and they still have the course maker to go. But it's recognised that each GT game is an evolution of the last. Polyphony are unlikely to start completely from scratch for GT7, and even if they did they'd be working with what they've learnt already.

If we're talking about developing the AI further, I assumed that it was a given that we were talking about how Polyphony would evolve it for GT7 or other future games.

Maybe you're not on the same page. Maybe you still actually think that Polyphony would modify the GT6 AI. That has never been my opinion.

Did you miss the part where the game ALREADY HAS SLIDERS?

Did you miss the part where people are talking about career mode? The part that makes up the vast majority of the single player game?

It's there right in the OP when he's talking about GT mode races, and many other users in this thread have done the same and named races that they've found too easy. I'm sure someone in here has mentioned Arcade at some point, but I can't remember it.

You've moved the goalposts about forty feet to the left, and now you're bragging about scoring a goal?

If you can explain how MORE sliders will help, please elaborate.

It doesn't need more sliders. It needs sliders that do what they're labelled to do, and do not have their effect negated by the rubber band system. Also, as I said in my first half dozen posts, the AI should be driving equal or near equal machinery. A slider that modifies the average PP of the AI field does not help to achieve that.

The extreme rubber banding in GT6 cripples anything that could be used as user adjustable difficulty. Until they do away with the rubber band, it's impossible for any user adjustable difficulty to have the effect that it should.

 

[Shahar]

No, I don't think I am. I think that people who simply want to play single player over and over to infinity consider themselves to be a larger portion of the public than they truly are. The idea that adjusting the AI caters to "everybody" is misguided. It applies to everybody who only cares about offline. That's a very small subset. I would wager far smaller than the players who pretty much disregard the single player in favour of online.

I for one have never done a single player race more than once unless I needed credits for something, and then I just do the RedBull stuff. Once I get gold, I am finished. There is nothing more to be achieved. So, an adjustable difficulty, for someone like me, would be a completely useless feature that I would complain about in this forum. I applaud b-spec because it saves me the trouble of having to deal with single player at all. In my opinion, SP is fake racing. Everything about it is fake.

In general, driving AI can be perfect (in that it can be set to make no mistakes). It can do the perfect lap every time. It can even be setup to be ULTRA perfect. It could do laps that exceed the possible. So, if AI loses to a human, it's because it has been programmed to do so. I don't care how well done the AI is, if I beat it, it's a hollow victory because I was given a win by the computer.

Contrast that to the Quick Match (for example). There are hundreds of thousands of races happening at any one time. Each one of those races is far more interesting than any single player match. If you find a group too easy, exit and enter another room. I love that I am actually beating other people with a desire to win. I know that it was my skill (and maybe some luck) that got me the win. Nothing was given to me.

Sorry about my bad english.
Yes, but AI can do perfect laps alone.If you have other cars it becomes a completely different thing.So AI that will race against a human and won't have a 3 kilometers advantage won't be able to create a gap.

This part is a bit boring so if you aren't interested in AI you can ignore it
{
Lets imagine a race between a human to a perfect AI with no limit in resources.
This perfect AI is able to calculate everything the human driver can do and calculate the perfect reaction to its move.
So this AI can make a perfect pass and beat the human driver.
Computer have beat humans in chest more then 10 years ago!
The problem is that we have limited resources and the AI can't predict every option and its outcomes. So the AI isn't perfect and we are very far from building one.
So perfect AI is impossible, but building a decent AI that will understand the basics of the passing on the inside or outside is possible and I don't see that in GT's AI.
}

The AI seems to me like he is trying to stay on the racing line as much as possible.
Like in this test in F1 2013 in the young driver development program.
The AI is just as smart as the programmers can make it (probably) and they fail (or don't want to).
@Voodoovaj you probably understand this topic much better then me.

 

[BrodieBoi94]

WARNING LONG POST AHEAD

Personally I've reached a point where I can't call GT6 "easy", just reading others' point of view.

Many, if not most of us, have been playing through Gran Turismo since its beginning having experienced more and more challenging physics and faced skill improving tests and challenges.

I'll mention that the A.I are not, nor have they ever been challenging. They may as well be there just so you dont feel alone (sometimes).

Anyway a point that some have made is that our continuous playing of the series has improved our skills to a point where the racing offline doesn't present a challenge to us, or at least one we desire.

On the opposite side of the same coin are those who may have been a fan of the series for years, but not having racing games as their first choice but just being interested for reasons of their own.

Or those who are just new to the series.

These individuals have most likely found Gran Turismo's offline challenging.

The name of the game and its "catch phrase" if you will, "the real driving simulator" also comes to mind. (Many have brought this to attention as well)

If the developers have in mind driving experience rather than racing experience then that would answer a few questions about why the challenge regarding racing isn't as potent as it COULD be. But I couldn't say that it SHOULD be if I am right about the purpose the developer had in mind.

So with that said, the driving experience is amazing IMO. Removal of HUD and a basic surround sound setup or headphones makes for a beautiful driving simulation. One that feels natural.

So before I stray further away than I already have I'll conclude by saying.

I believe GT's difficulty is relative to the individual behind the wheel or ds3.

And keep in mind there are always tracks and cars to master, and friends' records to VANQUISH!!!!!

 

[Voodoovaj]

Sorry about my bad english.
Yes, but AI can do perfect laps alone.If you have other cars it becomes a completely different thing.So AI that will race against a human and won't have a 3 kilometers advantage won't be able to create a gap.

Your English is fine. The problem I have with these discussions is the general confusion between what the AI does in the game and what is COULD do. I have said right from the start that having a bunch of accomplished players judging the difficulty ramp of GT6 is a little skewed.

Regardless of how often I mention it, people still want to ask for difficulty sliders even though they are already in existence in the game.

It is trying to maintain an experience that is positive for everyone. It is not bad AI, it is intentionally set to give the player a win when possible. Being Bad AI is not the same as being set to be too easy for the accomplished player.

This part is a bit boring so if you aren't interested in AI you can ignore it
{
Lets imagine a race between a human to a perfect AI with no limit in resources.
This perfect AI is able to calculate everything the human driver can do and calculate the perfect reaction to its move.
So this AI can make a perfect pass and beat the human driver.
Computer have beat humans in chest more then 10 years ago!
The problem is that we have limited resources and the AI can't predict every option and its outcomes. So the AI isn't perfect and we are very far from building one.
So perfect AI is impossible, but building a decent AI that will understand the basics of the passing on the inside or outside is possible and I don't see that in GT's AI.
}

Just watching the B-spec driver (and races) and you will see that the AI system is capable of all the things you mention.

The AI seems to me like he is trying to stay on the racing line as much as possible.
Like in this test in F1 2013 in the young driver development program.
The AI is just as smart as the programmers can make it (probably) and they fail (or don't want to).
@Voodoovaj you probably understand this topic much better then me.

It is definitely the latter. It shows every sign of being intentionally tuned to let you win regardless of the difficulty level you set it to. Why did they choose this? I don't know for sure. The general direction of games is to err on the side of being easy.

As I stated earlier in this thread, the tools exist in the game for the AI to do better. Simply turn on the driving line and you can see that the game can dynamically determine if the player is going too fast to make a corner. If it can do that for the player, it can do that for the AI. The only place where the AI is trimmed back for computing purposes is in the collision detection, because that's usually a costly process. This is why they hit the player quite often.

This thread should just be renamed "Is the most challenging AI setting in GT6, challenging enough". Also, is the race set up interesting enough? I think those two issues are tied together. The direction they've chosen is to provide the player with passes on every lap, rather than having the player "race" the AI.

I don't know why this design choice was made. I don't know why the AI in GT6 is never displays anything other than a slow pace. It is very hard to believe that, given what we know about how the cars work, that the AI lacks the capacity to push the cars to their limits. There enough bells and whistles in the game to make them blindingly fast.

I have seen a few times that a hot topic comes up and then a seasonal event appears that seems relevant to that topic. For instance, the 450pp seasonal that came out a few weeks ago is far more challenging that any before it in my opinion, BUT it still uses that silly "pass all the cars" design. I say we request an EXTRA EXPERT level seasonal with a standing start and see what they can come up with.

 

[Shahar]

Regardless of how often I mention it, people s
I have seen a few times that a hot topic comes up and then a seasonal event appears that seems relevant to that topic. For instance, the 450pp seasonal that came out a few weeks ago is far more challenging that any before it in my opinion, BUT it still uses that silly "pass all the cars" design. I say we request an EXTRA EXPERT level seasonal with a standing start and see what they can come up with.

In GT concept there was begginer, expert and ace.I think they should return this option.

 

[Voodoovaj]

In GT concept there was begginer, expert and ace.I think they should return this option.

Once again...The difficulty is already in the game. If you go to Arcade, you can select it. If you are in career, it is pre-selected. When they release new seasonals, they release beginner, intermediate, and expert.

The only thing missing is being able to make the Sunday cup an Expert race (as an example), or the 24min on LeMans a beginner race.

The problem is that, most likely because of the single file approach to every race, "Expert" doesn't really cater to experts and there is no actual racing happening.

This is why I was saying in earlier posts that they can (and really SHOULD) update the single player to be what people would actually want to play. The effort needed is minimal. Add to that all the B-spec features that already exist and the single player could actually be fun rather than just a grind for money.

 

[Arp 273]

I like a game that is hard for me to win with the maximum allowed settings. Not career events that I have to enter with 100pp less and 1 tire grade less to make it interesting. This does require difficulty sliders for career mode, because not everybodies idea of 'hard' is the same.

I want to have a feeling of achievement when beating a pre-defined goal. GT6 career mode does not feel rewarding for the most part. Some of the later AI and S class races and Goodwood events do give this feeling of accomplishment.

I think that part of this problem is the PP system. Not all cars with the same PP are equal in performance. And then there is the tuning which significantly affects the performance, but does not always affect PP. Currently the PP limit for most career mode events is for a stock, slow (for it's PP) car, driven by an unexperienced player.

An other problem is the AI early braking and braking mid corner. Their early braking might be solved by me not using ABS 1. I should try that. But the mid corner braking? Who does that? So why does the AI do it?

The rubberbanding is annoying. If I enter in a slower car I should be lapped by the AI while they honk their horns at me for being in the way..

Also, more close racing with a group of AI cars would be great. It sometimes happens and it's fun when it does.

 

[derelict]

It is but what could make it more difficult would be tire wear, fuel consumption, and body damage. All on, all the time.

 

[jpcxn]

I just finished an experiment with a single player race to see how "competitive" the AI actually is in the game.

Race: International B - 10 Minutes Races - Race 1 (Brands Hatch):
Restrictions: 530 PP Max / Tires : Sports Hard
Controller : DS3
My Car: Mitsubishi FTO GR '94 with this specs: 208hp / 1150kg / 408 PP / Tires: Regular Soft
Most relevants AI cars: M3 GTR / M3 CSL / Audi RS6 / Challenger SRT / Esprit V8 SE / XKR Coupe '09 with Sports Hard tires all of them.

As much wasn't the perfect race, it was a clean race without bumps or blocks of any kinds. And at the end I win!!!!!! The AI is practically nonexistent. 122 PP below the limit, the tires 1 cat. below and still win. I dont understand why include this kind of opponents to make a "race" so unreal. If the idea is to give the player more chances of winning, why not to include worse AI cars with worse tires, resulting in a more close and fun race.
As derelict said, including tire wear,fuel consumption (x2?) and damage, races could be even more fun, which makes the replayability of the game more enjoyable.

 

[sk8er913]

Physics wise, speed is too easy. The optimal slip angle is much narrower in real life than in GT6.

 

[Thematic]

I just finished an experiment with a single player race to see how "competitive" the AI actually is in the game.

Try an Arcade race on a long track with infinite laps. Perhaps you'll make it to 1st in a few minutes, but a lot of players will not.

Physics wise, speed is too easy. The optimal slip angle is much narrower in real life than in GT6.

Aquaplaning being a salient exception.

 

[JR98]

GT6 is far too easy. I can get through the majority of the career mode without having to purchase or upgrade a single car apart from the Fit and in Arcade mode on the hardest AI difficulty I can beat a Mazda RX-7 '91 in a stock GT86 '12. I really hope GT's AI gets a major upgrade for GT7.

 

[pasigiri]

IMO, mostly the game is easy. BUT, there have been some seasonals that have totally been impossible for me. The hardest ones typically consist of 8 to 9 cars I can easily pass in typically the first three laps (considering the track). But the last two to three white rabbits, put up some serious competition. Especially when trying to drive a clean race which some times they don't. I had a white rabbit literally take a very different line and bump the side of my car on corner exit.

 

[jpcxn]

Try an Arcade race on a long track with infinite laps. Perhaps you'll make it to 1st in a few minutes, but a lot of players will not.

You're right, in arcade mode is totally different, but why they cant implement this in the career mode races?? I dont want to play a race with a sport car against a bunch of rally cars or muscle americans..
if you could set tire wear, fuel consumption and body damage, arcade mode could be very exciting.

 

[FS7]

Try an Arcade race on a long track with infinite laps. Perhaps you'll make it to 1st in a few minutes, but a lot of players will not.

Here's a more interesting experiment: try a race in solo mode in PCars, full grid, everybody using the same car, full damage, realistic fuel/tire wear, full penalties, race only, place yourself on pole, try to figure out an AI difficulty level that's close to your skill level.
If you can easily pull away from the AI and build a gap it's too easy, if the AI is passing you and you can't keep up with them it's too hard. The sweet spot is a difficulty level where it's possible to win starting from pole but it requires me to do a perfect race without making any mistakes and I have AI cars close to me fighting for position the entire race.

I'm not worried about winning every single race, what I want is to have competitive & exciting races. That's something that's missing in GT6, and that's why I consider PCars the best race experience one can get on console.
The whole catch-the-rabbit bs used in GT6 is what I call fake difficulty, if I can start a race in last place, using the same car the AI is using with stock parts/tires, all aids off, pass all AI cars cleanly and win that's a clear sign that the AI sucks and the game is too easy.

 

[Shahar]

Not so long ago I played GT3 again. I did some races and after 5 laps the AI was still fighting me. In GT3 the AI drive on rails but it does that very well, I prefer it over GT6 "more realistic" AI.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

What I did in arcade races, pick a car like Cizeta V16T for example, INCREASE the engine power to about 50-150HP more, pick lower grip tire if necessary, CS or CM. Pick the track, Bathurst for example ( my fav ), set rain weather, water on track 30-40% ( variable/fixed ). Go to tuning page, REVERT power back to stock/original. The AI cars should be more like supercars, and the slower rabbit are better cars too. Set laps to 10 or 20 or infinity if you wish set track time at afternoon and make it faster so you can enjoy night races Getting the lead will be tricky if you decide not too hit other cars, clean passes and defending ( there will be cars trying to pass you on the conrod )

 

[sk8er913]

Not so long ago I played GT3 again. I did some races and after 5 laps the AI was still fighting me. In GT3 the AI drive on rails but it does that very well, I prefer it over GT6 "more realistic" AI.

CPdM AI murdered me, and I'm almost a GT Academy Finalist.

 

[ALB123]

There are many things that bother me about GT6's approach toward "difficulty"...most have been covered in this thread already. I've often wondered if the races could be exponentially better with one simple change. Make ALL of the AI drivers/cars drive as well as the "rabbit" driver/car. As it stands, on a 3 lap race, most of us are probably in 1st place by the end of lap 1 or just before midway through lap 2. The remainder becomes a hot lap session. On a 5 lap race, you're probably in the lead by the end of lap 2, if you're really good, or midway though lap 3. If it were just more difficult to get past the first 12-14 cars, it would at least make the races seem more interesting because it wouldn't be you on an empty track - at least not until the last lap, most likely. Now, this could be done without even changing the AI code. Just make them equal! I would think that making a change like this would be extremely easy. There's gotta be a data file that instructs the AI drivers on how fast to drive. The actual code shouldn't have to be touched. Now, obviously I would prefer an entire AI system overhaul, but this would suffice for the remainder of GT6's life.

 

[Thematic]

Just make them equal! I would think that making a change like this would be extremely easy. There's gotta be a data file that instructs the AI drivers on how fast to drive. The actual code shouldn't have to be touched. Now, obviously I would prefer an entire AI system overhaul, but this would suffice for the remainder of GT6's life.

There would be consequences though. At least, you'd have to make them drive flawlessly - no accidents - or otherwise you'd have half the field crash into the scenery from time to time, foiling the improvement.

 

[CeltMage]

My main problem wasn't how easy it was, as many already stated just stop using dominating cars. My problem was with the offline Career game, it was way too short, the first 4 levels were all 2 and 3 lap races and some categories only had 1 or 2 races in them, even some championships were only 3 races long. I know a 5 lap race in a 50hp car isn't much fun, I'm not saying extend those but after the beginner races there should be more to the game. Also there's a half dozen or more of the same car and SO many great cars left out. They have Toyota's and Nissans from the 70's and 80's where's the Chevette? Or a Pinto? The Charger 2.2 was a fun car when it first came out and for a early 80's FF it was fun to drive, I had a Shelby turbo version of that car and it was a blast. I know they're slow examples of cars left out but I feel good cases. How many Miatas does the game really need? 3 or 4 of very similar vettes, 2 IDENTICAL Viper and C60's other than color/number changes etc.
Being easy is far from my major complaint of the game, in fact it's about 4th. It's funny watching the rear end of cars in a line go up in the air at the same identical spot, I actually nose dived a car so hard it flipped, over the front bumper, it was some Euro hatchback totally stock, realistic? I don't think so. How many races let you use SS tires? besides dropping down from RH. For that matter I think there's one place to use RS tires. I kind of liked the Exp points in GT5, using less tires got you more points, but I'd like it to be a choice.

P.S. I almost forgot about the license tests going from 10 to 5 segments. Just saying.... yet another example of game time cut backs.

 

[cjr3559]

They have Toyota's and Nissans from the 70's and 80's where's the Chevette? Or a Pinto?

Enough said right there. Self explanatory.

As far as the game being too easy, it's as difficult as you make it. Back off on the PP. Use a lower compound tire than the maximum.

I'm not sure why people need to have the game dictate how hard it should be by giving you predetermined difficulty settings. I feel that PD gives the user freedom to make their own choices, and my thought is the people that complain the game is too easy take the easy road and wind up blaming the game.

 

[Imari]

I feel that PD gives the user freedom to make their own choices, and my thought is the people that complain the game is too easy take the easy road and wind up blaming the game.

My thought is that you don't understand how hard the game is programmed to try and let you win.

 

[cjr3559]

My thought is that you don't understand how hard the game is programmed to try and let you win.

I understand. You mean the rubberbanding? Still doesn't bother me.

 

[TVR27]

GT5 and GT6 are to easy the last hard game was GT4.

 

[Imari]

I understand. You mean the rubberbanding? Still doesn't bother me.

Fair enough.

It's enough to really ruin it for me. If I crash on the last lap, I do not want the leader to wait for me. I want to lose, because that's what I earned. When I win, I want to have earned that position by not crashing and driving a hard fast race.

With the rubber band system, I can never really know whether I earned that win or whether it was gifted to me.

I know that there are some people who don't find this a problem and that's fine. But nor is it as simple as saying "you have choices, make it harder for yourself". There is no solution for the problem that people like me face, because the problem is the rubber band.

The ideal solution for people like me is difficulty levels, because then we can set the bar exactly so high, and see if we can jump over it. It's a specific objective challenge. That's what some people like, just as there are others that don't mind how they win as long as they feel that they had a good race.

I'm not arguing for replacing the rubber band for those that like it, but there's no real reason why we can't have both, as far as I can tell.