Is GT6's AI actually as unrealistic as we think it is?

AI is OK.

Could it be better? Yes, but then I have yet to play a game with "perfect" AI and I've played a lot of them.
While PDs AI is not fastest or most agresive, I found , it is quite good representation what trackdays with casual drivers can be and not some Michael Bay / "Days of thunder" /MTV wannabee.
Thats said , you can't cater everyone ,but for me it is quite realistic , yet I hope it will be even better/faster in GT7:).


PS:If you think AI is too slow for you , start using poor mans clutch > let off throtle on every gear shift / choose car with less pp / put tires lower than series default/cars default / use hp restrictor-weight handicap as IRL in racing series... there are many ways to make yourself slower and AI faster /competitive , you just have to have a bit of imagination.
 
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CeeJay
So in reality when a single racer takes the lead the whole field gets turbo-boosted, punts the driver and everyone flies into the sand?



If GT modeled realistic car damage the whole field would probably be out of the race! :lol: I like that you explained your thoughts on the AI but I think I'd def have to disagree. I do appreciate that PD seems to be trying something to fix the AI but so far the results are.. kind of a mix bag. :ill:
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Let him draft you all the way down the straight, excellent racecraft...
 
GregOr1971
AI is OK.

Could it be better? Yes, but then I have yet to play a game with "perfect" AI and I've played a lot of them.
While PDs AI is not fastest or most agresive, I found , it is quite good representation what trackdays with casual drivers can be and not some Michael Bay / "Days of thunder" /MTV wannabee.
Thats said , you can't cater everyone ,but for me it is quite realistic , yet I hope it will be even better/faster in GT7:).
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Nobody is expecting perfection, nor is anyone expecting a track day experience in a racing game.
PS:If you think AI is too slow for you , start using poor mans clutch > let off throtle on every gear shift / choose car with less pp / put tires lower than series default/cars default / use hp restrictor-weight handicap as IRL in racing series... there are many ways to make yourself slower and AI faster /competitive , you just have to have a bit of imagination.
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That's not the solution, that is getting around the fundamental problem. Your proposed idea only acknowledges one of the reasons why the "racing" in GT6 is not actually racing; the game pairs you up with cars that are way faster and way slower than your own. If I were in an NSX-R, the game would pair me up with cars ranging from an LFA to a Civic R. For the record I use CM tires while the AI generally uses SH tires.

While not directly related with the AI, another problem is the scattered start. The LFA in my example would be well ahead by the time I manage to clear the pack, and by then it's long gone and technically should be impossible to catch. That is when we realize the problem of the AI rubberbanding, as shown in daan's video where he is in a Focus and the lead AI is in a Spirra. The lead car blatantly slows down for the obvious slower car to win. This completely ruins the experience and immersion and no other racing game I've played outside the GT series does anything similar.

As a matter of fact, GT is the only game where I consistently don't need to try hard to win. In Grid Autosport, Dirt 2, F1 2010, Midnight Club LA, NFS Shift, rFactor, TDU2, and hell even Cars PSP, if I even make one mistake, I'm almost certainly not going to win.

The AI in GT6 is garbage and there is no getting around that.
 
Ok I don't do much a-spec but they are pretty good at simulating how people race online :D :D no sense what so ever :D

Does it make any difference to the behavior of AI if you hit them? I mean I've tried couple of times to be very careful to no to even touch any AI wile passing them and they seem behave them self but if I just ram them while passing it seems they all start to chase me trying to push me off. This could be placebo effect but can't really say... Thoughts?
 
I like the new AI in the season events.
I have had also a tricky Ai experience at the International A Gt international championship at Nurburg.
Yes Ai is rather slow at start, but the leaders wake up when you past them.
At the International Gt championship Nurburg, the leader really hunted me at the last long straight before the finish.

The best Ai confrontation i had was at the Sarthe Expert a-spec season race.
First time, it was hard, leaders made it difficult.
second try, i got close to the leader and he made a braking mistake and overshoots a corner.
I'm a average GT6 driver, so yeah it was more real for me.

GT6 game-engine is at its limits (texture glitches, or a short freeze when it loads the ghost lines of you and your friends at a season hotlap when you just pass the start line)
A 100% accurate AI on PS3 is a nice dream.

Compairing Ai from GT5 with GT6, it got more real.
And again i repeat myself on the next lines.

Gt5 Ai: come close to a AI car, it goes aside and let's you pass.
Passed the leader? it keeps the same speed, does not really hunt you.
They always followed the perfect line.
At Nurburg GP/F and Fuji, after the start they all start to drive left for the right-hand corner that's coming.

GT6 AI:
Come close to a AI car, it keeps it position or even closes the gap.
Pass the leader, if possible it will hunt you down, depends how much overpower you have.
They don't always follow the perfect line.
At Nurburg GP/f and Fuji, after the start, some start to drive left, and some suddenly come to the right, blocking you from passing, before the upcoming right-hand corner.

Compared to GT5, yes the ai is more realistic.
But it will never be 100% real.
 
The "I" in AI indicates it should have Intelligence.


GT's AI doesn't adjust to situations at all.
It follows a pattern.
If the car loses grip/handling, the AI still tries to use the same pattern and then it looks like the AI makes mistakes by going on the grass etc..

The AI doesn't take risks (like an intelligent driver), take the same corner at the exact same speed (which is wrong with tons of tire wear).

More realism (game physics) will make the AI even worse.



I mentioned it in another thread, but 18 years ago, Formula 1 '97 was top knotch in the AI department (with car damage, tire wear, fuel consumption etc. etc.).
22 cars, with qualifying, grid starts and even disqualifications...
That was a racing game.
 
Yes, AI is Artificial Intelligence.
But this artificial is based upon the basic If Then Else commands but got a bit more complicated over the years.
If i get onto the grass, and i want to keep 1st place, i also try pushing the gas to keep speed, resulting in a spin.

Nice example of realism, look at 0:15, a car suddenly comes on the track with a whole other purpose than racing.



at a monster truck show, it is normal to wreck the car/truck.
I don't really know if this is the point in this clip.
 
1241Penguin
What would your excuse for this be?:



Video by @daan.
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You ran into the back of the AI which puts it into "noob mode" for noob players who can't drive, but still like to win. Not to mention that if you didn't squeeze the AI down the straight, you may not have won (and it looks like a low level race with low level AI).
 
MrGrado
You ran into the back of the AI which puts it into "noob mode" for noob players who can't drive, but still like to win. Not to mention that if you didn't squeeze the AI down the straight, you may not have won (and it looks like a low level race with low level AI).
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Glad to see some got it worked out.
Did like how he pinched him on entry to para, made him get out of throttle.
Monza races obviously set up for old .01 trophy or whatever it was.
 
I do wonder if Kaz has programmed some of the "bots" on here to automatically deny anything is wrong when there is criticism of the AI. GTP AI.

To anyone playing this game who thinks the ai make anything like human decisions I suggest you try something like Game Stock Car Extreme, Grid Autosport, GTR2, F1. Nothing is perfectly realistic but they are many times more realistic than GT5/6 (I wish it weren't the case).
 
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JohnScoonsBeard
To anyone playing this game who thinks the ai make anything like human decisions I suggest you try something like Game Stock Car Extreme, Grid Autosport, GTR2, F1. Nothing is perfectly realistic but they are many times more realistic than GT5/6 (I wish it weren't the case).
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been mentioned hundred times already man...
Got anything new "you'd" like to add or just gonna keep bleating along?
 
JaseScott
been mentioned hundred times already man...
Got anything new "you'd" like to add or just gonna keep bleating along?
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Lose the attitude now.

If you have an issue with a point another member is making then address that point, what you do not (and will not) do is attack the person instead of addressing the point.
 
Scaff
Lose the attitude now.

If you have an issue with a point another member is making then address that point, what you do not (and will not) do is attack the person instead of addressing the point.
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suggest you disect your mates post I replied to a little further before judging mine
 
I personally never said it's "unrealistic". That is a term I can't recall stumbling upon in regards to GT6 AI.

They are simply slow - braking too early and too softly, braking while beside you on the straight, bumping you with room left and right, not detecting your car and thus PIT-ing you, failing to overtake other AI, slow cornering speed, slow corner exit and nonsensical tire/fuel management.

While realism of their behavior is not on top of my problems with the game - yes, some of those are in fact highly unrealistic too.

Even the slowest driver don't do things AI is doing.

Besides GT6 is a game meant to be played not role-played with me imagining AI is some kind of inexperienced driver.
 
Something that bothers me is how you start off in last place and the first three to four cars you encounter might as well not even be moving. The next handful of cars have a decent lead on you because of the rolling start, but they will never pose an actual threat - you just have to get around them without incident. Finally, you encounter sometimes up to three cars that are actually "racing" but we all know how that goes...most of the points have already been made in this thread.

I'm not going to pretend to know how to code a racing AI to make it more competitive, but it would seem to me that the computer should have a rough idea of what a practical lap time is for a particular automobile and that car should complete laps within a certain percentage of time better or worse than the established lap time for that car/PP value. If the AI cars were just "faster" that would increase the difficulty considerably. The fact that AI cars get slower as the number of laps increases is ridiculous when we're only doing 5 laps (in most cases). Of course it would be even better if the AI drivers could be "smarter" too - but that doesn't really matter when 9 to 10 of the AI cars on the track will never be of any significance in most races because of how slow they drive.
 
In rolling start 'chase the rabbit' format, unfortunately some form of rubberband makes it more interesting.

If rabbit don't slow down at the beginning, we would probably never catch up. Otherwise we need to be so much faster, we pass them like they are standing once we caught up. No great solution unless they overhaul the chase the rabbit format from a rolling start.

A more interesting format would be having standing close starts like in F1 2012. Even that often is a rush and risk for good position at the first corner and then clean laps plus blocks while minimising mistakes to win in a inferior car.
 
JaseScott
suggest you disect your mates post I replied to a little further before judging mine
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I suggest you take a read of the PM in your inbox and in future worry less about the posts of others and instead focus on you own ability to follow the AUP and Terms of Service.

Just a hint as well, telling the staff what to do while ignoring the AUP is not a smart move at all.
 
ODB
Ok I don't do much a-spec but they are pretty good at simulating how people race online :D :D no sense what so ever :D

Does it make any difference to the behavior of AI if you hit them? I mean I've tried couple of times to be very careful to no to even touch any AI wile passing them and they seem behave them self but if I just ram them while passing it seems they all start to chase me trying to push me off. This could be placebo effect but can't really say... Thoughts?
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Yes, this has been a feature of the AI since GT2, though recently (in GT5 and GT6) they seem to have gotten better at determining whether the contact was their fault or yours.
 
JohnScoonsBeard
I do wonder if Kaz has programmed some of the "bots" on here to automatically deny anything is wrong when there is criticism of the AI. GTP AI.

To anyone playing this game who thinks the ai make anything like human decisions I suggest you try something like Game Stock Car Extreme, Grid Autosport, GTR2, F1. Nothing is perfectly realistic but they are many times more realistic than GT5/6 (I wish it weren't the case).
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This is the answer to anyone suggesting much better AI can't be done on old hardware. Even Grid Autosport, recently released on PS3, has much more competitive AI. With some small tweaks to aggression and turning off the "Ravenwest mode", it would be perfect for the GT series IMO.

But as I suggested in the Kaz Forum, is this possible with the huge variety of cars in GT6+? As a minimum they have to setup grids in the career mode with cars much closer together in performance otherwise even at peak performancers at the same PP are several seconds off the pace. Perfect AI will not make that part of the equation go away.

As a minimum much more forethought has to go into which cars make up the grid in GT7 career mode, otherwise we'll have much better AI, but only be actually racing with the lead car while the others are 1-5 seconds off the pace and we'll be complaining about that for three years...lol
 
There's several (probably separate) problems with GT6's AI.

#1: The AI in "normal" mode is too slow (and it has also been in GT5). Like someone else posted, it brakes in all the wrong places and situations, even when fighting for position. If you drove the same car as the AI in GT5 (which didn't have the same rubberbanding tactics), you could go something like 5-10s faster on any track of average length, and that was when the AI was at its fastest. When it got cold it went another 10s slower. Show me one real life driver that slows down by that much, even when he's not fighting for position. Because of the rubberbanding, it's hard to say how fast the GT6-AI can really go, but it doesn't seem to have improved.

#2: The slowing-down-to-let-you-win is a joke for everyone that is not a complete rookie at playing racing games. How is it a challenge, if you can sometimes win with a completely underpowered car, because the AI almost slows down to a halt? How is it a merit, if you win a race like that? It fails badly on both accounts, because it tries not to frustrate the gamers that only play the game for a couple of hours and makes the whole career-mode a joke. What would you get out of playing chess with Kasparov when you win every single game? It would be completely meaningless - and that's what GT6 racing against the AI is.

#3: The AI-modifications for Seasonals into "Beginner", "Intermediate" and "Professional" is basically using the same AI, just risking a whole lot more. This goes up to the point where they smash into you in braking zones with no chance whatsoever to make the corner. This is not faster AI, it's just nonsense. It's not a challenge, it makes you throw the controller into a corner. Luckily, I have a wheel.

If this is what b-spec races will be like when they finally arrive in an update, I don't think I will be interested. With all its flaws, I was a fan of b-spec in GT5, but I'm not looking forward to GT6's version of it, if there's no improvement in speed & behaviour.

Unfortunately, I think it's probably too late that they can change it. All of the offline career races would have to be revised, if they actually removed the ridiculous rubberbanding or significantly improved the AI, because some of them maybe could simply not be won anymore, so it would make achievements in GT6 completely incomparable.
 
Johnnypenso
But as I suggested in the Kaz Forum, is this possible with the huge variety of cars in GT6+? As a minimum they have to setup grids in the career mode with cars much closer together in performance otherwise even at peak performancers at the same PP are several seconds off the pace. Perfect AI will not make that part of the equation go away.
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That's just it.
They obviously stuck at just running 1,2 maybe 3 cars at most in tight with you at present.
Probably just some generic AI engine underlying the main part of the game trying to cope with all the different car specs, with some little specialty, perhaps branch engines for events like Red Bull X, etc, where they've tried to grid up and run similar cars a bit tighter in greater numbers.
Same car, same boundary box/whatever, same sound samples being mixed ontop of each other, etc.

Sim module must be grinding extraordinary numbers with all those angles.
Audio demands its fair share of resources, a lot of data has to traverse this route, all of it having to be mixed on top of one another, lot of grinding math.
Add path finding algorithms and collision detection for AI, again a lot of grinding math, angles, fractions, float error, goes on and on.
Then in the same loop you want to render the final calcs to the screen, at current resolutions, at an acceptable frame rate?
Nightmare proportions...

My guess, there is a less going on in the sim engine of the other games you mention, a more scripted driving experience.
A more predictable player makes for easier AI algorithms, easier sound sample matching, more cars on screen at any given point, etc, etc.

Hopefully, GT7 will see them being able to just get more cars on screen with the more capable hardware. I think the current AI is coming along nicely.
I think you are right, they probably will have to make some more specialised categories to get them all running a bit tighter.

edit: I should add, AI traditionally not being PDs thing, always been focused on the sim and capturing motoring history to me.
But hey, things are looking up aren't they?
 
*ahem* In NASCAR '14 (one of the most buggy, terribly executed games out right now I admit), the AI is still more sensible than in GT6 (mostly anyway). Sure, they do wacky, truly stupid things a lot, but they also have some fun, close-quarters driving in there.

I'm tired of listening to reasons why Polyphony Digital cannot at least get that far along in AI development. It's completely ridiculous, and there is no reason on Earth why they haven't at least done a better job at it. I don't mean the best AI out there either, just something that at least will realize my car exists, and maneuver around it.
 
NixxxoN
There's no such thing as realistic "AI" because it would become "HI" human intelligence, and its impossible to code btw.
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Is that not the aim of all AI programers? To have their AI indistinguishable from dealing with a human? Isn't that the Turing Test?

I wouldn't say it was impossible to code. Difficult, yes, but not impossible.

We need to separate that CPU controlled cars ability to drive quickly round a corner an AI. A good example of rubbish AI driving well is GT3's Pro Vitz / Yaris race where the CPU cars drive very quickly, on the racing line and that's it. Very dumb, but very difficult to beat.

When it comes to actual AI, as many people have pointed out, GT falls down quite badly. It seems very tightly scripted and it takes a lot to break it from that script. The most noticeable example of this is the slavish adherence to the racing line, whether there is another car on it or not. It just doesn't react enough to what is going on around it.

The rolling start, chase the rabbit format if the races is clearly there to hide the lack if AI. Rather than having the CPU cars interacting with each other and exposing their stupidity, they're nicely spaced out...
 
Furinkazen
Constructive :rolleyes:


OP has a lot of good points but in GT6 it is exaggerated, be it pace differences or mistakes. I still would love to turn rubber banding off.
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There's a video where a guy win against an AI Spirra by a tenth of second and it proves the AI is coded to let the player win but at the same time it gives him the illusion it was a close race. I wouldn't call it rubber banding I would call it trolling. GT6 AI can't be considered realistic, not even remotely realistic.
 

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