Is GT6's AI actually as unrealistic as we think it is?

[GT6OuTLaW]

What?

You are in no position to say how strick the rules are, and in the end how strick they are applied in reality is not much concern. Seriously, are you arguing that they can do whatever they please? Obviously you don't know much about F1 behind closed doors where dealing with these matters take place

I'm saying to understand how and why Ai do what they do, the rules surrounding what they are doing should be not just known but well known as these rules dictate actions. You can be ignorant and say I'm defending bad programming all you like, that just shows your not understanding my point. That's fine though, you don't have to.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

What difference would faster cars make?

It should be obvious its going to make quite a big difference. Its literally OBVIOUS.

, I could also post up the videos of me winning races with a car that is 150pp lower than the AI on a circuit that is mostly about power, and with three grades of tire lower with no aids or ABS. (A stock Renault Avantime on CS against high powered supercars on SS tires for example).

You can't If I pic the car and track.

As silly as it is, I'd like to see you try.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

That's ridiculous. You can't excuse a Sony developer because they have 2 incompetents developing one of the most important things in a racing game.
They were looking for a sound engineer 2 weeks ago, they should also look for an AI designer ASAP.

Now you're insulting the developers rather than providing constructive criticism. Good job. I'm sure that'll make the game a LOT better.

If you have an idea for a way to improve the AI, please voice it constructively. Else, leave.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

It should be obvious its going to make quite a big difference. Its literally OBVIOUS.

You can't If I pic the car and track.

I explained why the result would be the same. My "advantage" into, through and out of the corners would negate their better top speed. It is why my 200hp Avantime was able to "beat" 500hp supercars on a high speed circuit.

You really are clutching at straws if you already dismissed a video that met your first set of criteria and completely proved you wrong by adding a massive disadvantage, and then moving the goal posts and saying that I should have to win another race in reverse to meet a more ridiculous set of criteria.

Where in any of that shows that the AI is good and/or realistic? Nobody should be able to win in reverse at all, anywhere, no matter what vehicles are used.

 

[HKS racer]

Now you're insulting the developers rather than providing constructive criticism. Good job. I'm sure that'll make the game a LOT better.

If you have an idea for a way to improve the AI, please voice it constructively. Else, leave.

No it's PD that is insulting your intelligence. The Spirra video. Don't forget it.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

No it's PD that is insulting your intelligence. The Spirra video. Don't forget it.

Do you have anything constructive to say? All you've done here is insult the developer and then deny it.

I'm not trying to mini-mod here, but people who criticize PD without providing a reason really irk me.

 

[HKS racer]

You are in no position to say how strick the rules are, and in the end how strick they are applied in reality is not much concern.

Did you watch F1 race at Silverstone? I don't need any particular position to tells something that millions of people have seen on TV. Don't want to sound rude, but are you confused?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

What difference would faster cars make? My car would still accelerate at a similar pace, and I already told you that I had a lower top speed in that video, the only reason why I almost matched them on the straight is because I was able to get on the accelerator that much earlier. The same thing would happen.

The problem with the AI in that video and in the scenario you want me to run to somehow prove the AI is actually good, is that the AI is far too early on the brakes, their cornering speed is far too slow and they wait far too long to get on the throttle. That video should not have been possible, but it was. Faster cars would not make a difference, I would still obliterate them into, through and out of corners.

Feel free to go ahead and keep defending away desperately, if you feel that supporting unsatisfactory coding/performance/products is a positive thing to do. If you're happy to keep recieving sub-par results and keep promoting them, you will continue to recieve sub-par results.

If you would like, I could also post up the videos of me winning races with a car that is 150pp lower than the AI on a circuit that is mostly about power, and with three grades of tire lower with no aids or ABS. (A stock Renault Avantime on CS against high powered supercars on SS tires for example).

It would be interesting to do that race at Bathurst, 100% weather, 40% water on track, 0 weather change ( constant rain, water stays at 40% ), evening 15:30 PM, 15 time speed, grip real, use stock Avantime if you wish, set to max power and minimum weight to get max PP possible in the garage, then enter arcade mode, professional, set it to 5 laps. When on track, go to tuning page, set to stock power and weight, use comfort tires, you will have much more powerful AI cars with variety of PP ( might have NSX, M3, Ferraris or other 400-500+PP cars on the top 5 ). Disregard the AI tires, the goal is to reach 1st before finish line ( 5 laps ) cleanly.

This will make the race much harder, running shorter laps will also make it more challenging, ie 3 laps instead of 5.

I used to run arcade rain races on stock Cizeta V16T on CM tires, no ABS, at Bathurst against Saleen S7, Ferrari 430, Nissan GTR etc. 30% water, 100% weather, but I enter with stock car, so the top 5 AI cars are a few PP above me on Professional. Used to win on 3 laps races, tight but fun.

 

[HKS racer]

Do you have anything constructive to say? All you've done here is insult the developer and then deny it.

I've already said Codemasters did well with Grid. Maybe for a game like GT that kind of AI needs to be toned down a little in agressivity.

I'm not trying to mini-mod here, but people who criticize PD without providing a reason really irk me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOL

 

[ryzno]

I have to agree, I have experienced the same bs with the AI as many of the people have said .
The video that shows the car slowing down right before the line is proof the AI is poorly calculated.

All I will say is hitting the brakes mid turn at the apex and at the exit of a turn is crazy. Its fun exiting a turn get on the gas, and see brake lights with no one in front or a reason, just to plow in the back of said AI and have him ride his brakes till I go around. Ever heard of bump drafting Kaz?

If the op wants to keep shruging off claims that the AI isnt real, I see no need for this thread.

PS try slaming on the brakes mid turn and see what happens. I tried the AIs moves a few times, I end up in the wall thanks to a dumb AI.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

It would be interesting to do that race at Bathurst

Actually, the example I used with the Stock Avantime was indeed at Bathurst and it only required 2 and a half laps to get into first place against cars with over double the power though it was not in the wet. I'm not sure how much of a difference having some surface water would make as in my view, the AI underestimate the amout of grip available in wet conditions. Regardless, it still shows that something needs to be done. In a five lap race, those guys should be on their way to lapping me, not wondering how I passed them 3 laps ago.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Actually, the example I used with the Stock Avantime was indeed at Bathurst and it only required 2 and a half laps to get into first place against cars with over double the power though it was not in the wet. I'm not sure how much of a difference having some surface water would make as in my view, the AI underestimate the amout of grip available in wet conditions. Regardless, it still shows that something needs to be done. In a five lap race, those guys should be on their way to lapping me, not wondering how I passed them 3 laps ago.

You'll like wet racing ,the AI is not stupid in the wet, they still drive slow at times though I ran this scenario a few days ago on my HKS HIPERMAX III Accord Euro R replica ( stock power and weight ), CM tire, and won in 3 laps against NSX, WRX and Evora I bumped the power to 230+HP when entering the arcade race, then switch to stock power - need to bump draft to win and a few side by side action that made the AI slowed down on the down hill If the AI was better, there's no way my car would even see the NSX rear bumper.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

I have to agree, I have experienced the same bs with the AI as many of the people have said .
The video that shows the car slowing down right before the line is proof the AI is poorly calculated.

All I will say is hitting the brakes mid turn at the apex and at the exit of a turn is crazy. Its fun exiting a turn get on the gas, and see brake lights with no one in front or a reason, just to plow in the back of said AI and have him ride his brakes till I go around. Ever heard of bump drafting Kaz?

If the op wants to keep shruging off claims that the AI isnt real, I see no need for this thread.

PS try slaming on the brakes mid turn and see what happens. I tried the AIs moves a few times, I end up in the wall thanks to a dumb AI.

How am I "shrugging off claims that the AI isn't real"? I even acknowledged one of its faults in the OP.

I know this will attract a lot of debate, so let me start off with this: Yes, GT6's AI is pretty slow.

 

[NixxxoN]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

What? There's no black and white fallacy here; Its either AI being just like human intelligence, or not... or else, which possibility is there left?

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

Did you watch F1 race at Silverstone? I don't need any particular position to tells something that millions of people have seen on TV. Don't want to sound rude, but are you confused?

Sorry you must be, because your going on like you are. What you see as a spectator is not the whole story as far as points and being "strict" about rules. You must be confused because you have no clue what your talking about, its almost as if you haven't understood a single one of my post.

 

[1241Penguin]

What? There's no black and white fallacy here; Its either AI being just like human intelligence, or not... or else, which possibility is there left?

You said:

Ahahaha... are you a coder or something? You cannot code human intelligence. AI will always be inferior no matter what. Also if we assume its possible, you would need an uber-powerful machine to handle the uber-complex coding and the ps3 is far from that.

Which implies that we either get good AI or bad AI. Which also implies you haven't played any racing game outside the GT series.

 

[NixxxoN]

You said:

Which implies that we either get good AI or bad AI. Which also implies you haven't played any racing game outside the GT series.

I think you cannot read...

 

[Johnnypenso]

You said:

Which implies that we either get good AI or bad AI. Which also implies you haven't played any racing game outside the GT series.

Lot's of implying there. Good AI is possible on the PS3, Codies games have proven that and we have more than enough examples in the past few years. GT AI is bad through lack of effort in my opinion, like sounds, it just has not had a high priority for PD. Sure the two guys who work on AI probably tried real hard but 2 obviously isn't enough given the mess the AI are at this point. PD focused on super graphics and lots of cars and tracks and the marketplace says it was the right choice unfortunately for guys like us. I would not be surprised if the AI in GT7 were little improved from GT6.

 

[1241Penguin]

I think you don't know what you're talking about... either this or you cannot read...

My literacy skills are fine, thank you.

Now are you going to address my post or not?

 

[NixxxoN]

My literacy skills are fine, thank you.

Now are you going to address my post or not?

What I'm saying is that the AI in a game such as GT6 won't come close to human intelligente. That doesnt equal to "AI is either good or bad", not in this world at least. GT6 AI could be improved and I never denied that, but this improved AI will still be bad compared to a good human player.
Also show me one racing game where the AI is supposedly so good that seems like a human driver

 

[ryzno]

Either you didn't watch the video or you are delusional. The Spirra slowed 11mph in the Parabolica between the 1st and 3rd lap and at no time did it get out of shape nor was it anywhere near the limits of the car. It slowed intentionally, it has nothing to do with the handling, all cars exhibit this same slowing behaviour in the same situation.

And I don't know how you explain the AI taking it's foot off the accelerator as it's about the pass the leading car and actually slowing on a straight section of track. Is that handling too?

I've touched on that already.

And about the Spirra slowing to 11mph, that's because the AI is scared to death of their car even sliding one degree - hence their lack pf pace. If they were less afraid of that they'd be faster. In any case, if you'd care to discuss their mentality, please feel free to because that's what this thread is about.

Your response to post number 23.



You keep foffing around the bush,(nor did you dispute my claims of hard mid apex/exit braking being unrealistic) with no explanation of why they slow down at the line or why they slow down or refuse to pass on straights(not real)or why they have such a huge difference in time with no need for fuel or tire saving or definitely car damage. If I come up on a car 20+ mph slower, Ill be damned if I am gonna let up, just to let him win.. I think somewhere you said fear or loss of control. Let me tell you, when us drag racers touch the grass and get squirrely we don't let off, its called ride it out... The AI is slower and way dumber then my wife, who dont even like racing games.

I aint trying to start nothing, I'm just sayin...

 

[1241Penguin]

What I'm saying is that the AI in a game such as GT6 won't come close to human intelligente. That doesnt equal to "AI is either good or bad", not in this world at least. GT6 AI could be improved and I never denied that, but this improved AI will still be bad compared to a good human player.

So you're saying that no matter what, the AI won't be up to the level of a human driver, which is understandable.

But when you say things like "this improved AI will still be bad compared to a good human player," you're suggesting that the AI is inherently bad and there is no getting around that, and not that it's relatively worse than the human driver.

Also show me one racing game where the AI is supposedly so good that seems like a human driver

Codie's F1, Dirt, Grid...

 

[DSkywalker01]

yes

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

I notice AI drives better within the higher classes, S class they drive street cars to the best of their ability. I notice the fastest AI car is usually close to 75pp less than maximum allowed pp level and default settings on the car. Things like this I feel at least need consideration if we are to analyze AI and how they behave.

Max pp is much faster than the AI cars, then add assist making it easy to drive consistent, and the behavior is closer to how does AI behave when they are completely overmatched vs how do they behave in an evenly matched race.

 

[NixxxoN]

Codie's F1, Dirt, Grid...

They arent. Just because they may seem better than GT6 doesnt make them similar to human players. And when I say human players, I mean good/fast players, not bad ones.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

They arent. Just because they may seem better than GT6 doesnt make them similar to human players. And when I say human players, I mean good/fast players, not bad ones.

How would anybody 100% if the AI were good fast drivers? The AI by design have to give the player an advantage great enough to allow various skill levels to win.

Better drivers can easy turn up competition by lowering the pp level of the car they use, this very simple easy way to turn up AI competition. Its not perfect but it beats complaining all the time. It actually becomes fun to push how low a pp level you can underdog a race and win. At some point your speed and AI speed will somewhat align. Sorry everything can't be done for you, we as drivers need to be intelligent in how we use things as we can either be complainers or innovators, choice is ours to make.

Are you a glass half empty or glass half full kinda person? I have no time or patience with the half empty crowd of complainers, who are consistent only at complaining.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

That is not a fix for bad or slow AI, it should not be up to us to make it challenging by having an unrealistic playing field, that should be done by the developer by allowing a range of difficulty settings.

Make it so that people who struggle to win can select an easier difficulty and those that are fast, can have a decent race at max difficulty where the AI does not brake randomly and takes apexes 20mph below what is possible. Having extra rewards for choosing the higher difficulty would be an added bonus too.

If you were in a football team that was ranked as world class, would you rather have a decent, hard fought for game against another world class team or would you rather have a "decent" game against a small town, low ranked team and be told that you're only allowed to walk rather than run, and must leave the goal wide open on purpose so that the other team can score some goals?

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

I can only say its not just GT6, that's life. If you don't take it upon yourself to get the most out of it you never will.

I'm sorry nobody will hold your hand to tell you how to have fun and create competitive races if you are any good. Its up to you.

Seriously though. Does PD need to tell a crappy driver to use more than 500pp to win a 600pp event? Well its not brain surgery to figure If I'm too good for the Ai while I'm at full pp maybe lower pp would be more competitive.

Are you after a competitive race? I don't know because it seems more are just looking for things to find fault ingnoring all the incredible things GT6 has right.

 

[1241Penguin]

They arent. Just because they may seem better than GT6 doesnt make them similar to human players. And when I say human players, I mean good/fast players, not bad ones.

Have you played the games I listed?

I can only say its not just GT6, that's life. If you don't take it upon yourself to get the most out of it you never will.

I'm sorry nobody will hold your hand to tell you how to have fun and create competitive races if you are any good. Its up to you.

Seriously though. Does PD need to tell a crappy driver to use more than 500pp to win a 600pp event? Well its not brain surgery to figure If I'm too good for the Ai while I'm at full pp maybe lower pp would be more competitive.

Are you after a competitive race? I don't know because it seems more are just looking for things to find fault ingnoring all the incredible things GT6 has right.

lol

There shouldn't be a situation where your car is significantly better than that of the AI's. It's the job of the game to pair you up with cars of the same class.

Let me know of another racing game where you need to deliberately trick the game into choosing cars that are much faster than yours in order to have a good competitive race.

Tell me, do you play GT6 for entertainment or to exercise your life skills?

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I've had plenty of "fun" races against the AI by driving a much, much slower car than what the AI is using and can still win. I have done what you keep suggesting for years wth the GT franchise and gone even further with it, it does not change the fact the AI is bad. I wonder how many more times it needs to be said that fixing the bad AI is the developer's problem and not ours. Do you play first person shooters? If the AI is terrible, do you just stand there and let yourself get shot to have a good game?

You keep saying that myself and others need to stop using the maximum PP available. I thought it would be pretty clear by now that I don't, as do the others. As for looking for things to fault; no, it's called stating the facts. On the other hand, you seem to be doing whatever you can to jump to the game's defense at every turn.

Please name me any other game or sport in the world where you purposely nerf your performance to have a life enhancing challenge, or where there are such mismatches in the level of competition. You are literally on the verge of implying it is our fault for being fast drivers and we should have sympathy for badly written code, it's our fault the that the developers didn't do a better job.