Is GT6's AI actually as unrealistic as we think it is?

[GT6OuTLaW]

Have you played the games I listed?

lol

There shouldn't be a situation where your car is significantly better than that of the AI's. It's the job of the game to pair you up with cars of the same class.

Let me know of another racing game where you need to deliberately trick the game into choosing cars that are much faster than yours in order to have a good competitive race.

Tell me, do you play GT6 for entertainment or to exercise your life skills?

The game is designed so every race can be won by a multitude of driver skills. If your better than a noob, then you might have to take it upon yourself to use the features of the game to build better competition. You don't have to. Its like anything in life, its up to you to get the most out of it, or choose not to and instead spend your time complaining about things that you are in control of. I am in control of how I use the features in the game to build competition for myself, or if I choose to just moan about PD programing.

I don't see a real attempt to even understand what and how the Ai do what they do let alone judge the quality.

 

[1241Penguin]

The game is designed so every race can be won by a multitude of driver skills. If your better than a noob, then you might have to take it upon yourself to use the features if the game to build better competition. You don't have to. Its like anything in life, its up to you to get the most out of it, or choose not to and instead spend your time complaining about things that you are in control of.

I don't see a real attempt to even understand what and how the Ai do what they do let alone judge the quality.

For the record, I use CM tires almost exclusively.

Why should I have to go through all that for some decent competitive racing when other racing games do it for me? Other games have different difficult settings for drivers of various skill levels. GT doesn't have that. It's a poor attempt by PD to cater to the lowest common denominator.

It's not something the players have control of either. If we did it would exist in the form of a difficultly slider.

 

[PsuPepperoni]

So in reality when a single racer takes the lead the whole field gets turbo-boosted, punts the driver and everyone flies into the sand?



If GT modeled realistic car damage the whole field would probably be out of the race! I like that you explained your thoughts on the AI but I think I'd def have to disagree. I do appreciate that PD seems to be trying something to fix the AI but so far the results are.. kind of a mix bag.

Wow that's that Zonda is perfect. Whoever customized it is a genius. And man, can he drive. Check out that wheelspin control at the end, with no aids!

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

It's not "all that" to not use an over matched car. In a 600pp limit race AI have cars closer to 535pp. Surprise surprise easy win. Not "all that" to use a more competitive car vs a car with 65 more pp.

Comfort tires only? Big deal. Yawn, oh was I supposed to be impressed with that? So you like your limit of grip real low so reaching the limit is at a slow speed and easier to correct. Kinda lame to me keeping all limits so low, but to each his own.

Is it perfect? No.

Is it impossible to set up a challenging event? Not at all....

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

*Insert facepalm.jpg here*

 

[1241Penguin]

It's not "all that" to not use an over matched car. In a 600pp limit race AI have cars closer to 535pp. Surprise surprise easy win. Not "all that" to use a more competitive car vs a car with 65 more pp.

Comfort tires only? Big deal. Yawn, oh was I supposed to be impressed with that? So you like your limit of grip real low so reaching the limit is at a slow speed and easier to correct. Kinda lame to me keeping all limits so low, but to each his own.

Is it perfect? No.

Is it impossible to set up a challenging event? Not at all...

In GT5 the secrete menu made it clear GT allows higher user pp vs AI pp to give the user the advantage he needs to win even if they are a crappy driver. It also made it clear its as easy as using lower pp cars in events to get more "competition" out of an event. Its not "all that" big of a deal unless you just pout and make it one.

If you insist on continuing on, I suggest you take one of these with you:

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

In GT5 the secrete menu made it clear GT allows higher user pp vs AI pp to give the user the advantage he needs to win even if they are a crappy driver. It also made it clear its as easy as using lower pp cars in events to get more "competition" out of an event. Its not "all that" big of a deal unless you just pout and make it one

Ahh, bring the pics out, they have nothing left. The joke is people complaining about trivial BS, then trying not to look like what they are...

I don't care if you dissagree with me, that doesn't make my point any less valid or lower the value of my opinion. I've not once said I think the AI are smart, good, bad or anything of the sort. My points are to getting all the info on the table to begin, if you think the reasoning behind the actions of the AI are irrelevant when anylising AI behavior I say YOU are wrong and to overlook this renders your judgment illinformed.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Ahh, bring the pics out, they have nothing left. The joke is people complaining about trivial BS, then trying not to look like what they are...

No, it's because trying to have a discussion with you is as effective as talking to a brick wall, you're just not taking in what other people are saying. When someone brings up a counter point, you repeat the same thing you've already said, despite someone providing evidence against it.

The AI problems are not all about speed either, it is their race craft that is also a major issue and that is what the thread topic is about (is the AI realistic), but you keep going on about the speed.

 

[jtv90069]

The AI in GT6 has some serious flaws. It does have it's moments when it seems to be ok, then you get to places where the AI takes awful lines, brakes while exiting a corner with nothing in front of it or simply lifts off the accelerator for no good reason.
I've had many races where I have been able to match my speed with the lead cars ie: 22 seconds behind at 1st split, +/- 1 second(21-23 behind) 2 laps later only to then catch the leaders by 10+ seconds the next lap and go on to win, and the AI has not crashed or left the track, it simply has slowed down.
The problem is how the races start with no qualifying so there is a huge gap between 1st and last(you), so if the AI did it's best for the entire race, you're needing to be several seconds per lap faster to catch and win. Add qualifying and close formation rolling or grid starts and suddenly you would be able to match your pace with the AI and possibly have a decent race, but they still have the issues I mentioned at the start of this post, fix them as well and now we have a good basis for close racing with the AI.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

No, it's because trying to have a discussion with you is as effective as talking to a brick wall

I have to say the same thing to you

you're just not taking in what other people are saying. When someone brinds up a counter point, you repeat the same thing you've already said, despite someone providing evidence against what you said.

I've not seen anything I consider a counter point relevant to the points I'm making, just the standard complaining. All the main points of mine have gone unchallenged directly.

When have I said the AI are good, great, bad, smart or stupid? So exactly what point have I been wrong on?

The FACT we can set up competitive races if we choose to?

Or

My point that understanding the reasoning behind the actions of the AI is important to understanding the AI?

Or the Fact games are designed to give the user an advantage, in GT6 its clearly allowing users to have cars with more pp than the AI.

I think you are incapable of accepting I don't share your opinion and I'm not required to change it based on what you say its your problem not mine

 

[MidFieldMaven]

Maybe GT needs 3 difficulty modes for the AI like most other games?

 

[1241Penguin]

I have to say the same thing to you



I've not seen anything I consider a counter point relevant to the points I'm making, just the standard complaining. All the main points of mine have gone unchallenged directly.

When have I said the AI are good, great, bad, smart or stupid? So exactly what point have I been wrong on?

The FACT we can set up competitive races if we choose to?

Or

My point that understanding the reasoning behind the actions of the AI is important to understanding the AI?

Or the Fact games are designed to give the user an advantage, in GT6 its clearly allowing users to have cars with more pp than the AI.

I think you are incapable of accepting I don't share your opinion and I'm not required to change it based on what you say its your problem not mine

How about the point that @Lewis_Hamilton_ and I have been making about how GT is the only game where you need to purposely downgrade the performance of your own car in order to have decent competition? We have made rebuttals to your posts but the fact that you don't recognize or acknowledge the existence of our arguments shows just how much is getting into your head. So try and tackle our posts first.

Or if you prefer to take the other path:

If you insist on continuing on, I suggest you take one of these with you:

Pick your poison.

Maybe GT needs 3 difficulty modes for the AI like most other games?

There is in GT Arcade Mode, but even at the Professional level it's hardly challenging.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

How about the point that @Lewis_Hamilton_ and I have been making about how GT is the only game where you need to purposely downgrade the performance of your own car in order to have decent competition? We have made rebuttals to your posts but the fact that you don't recognize or acknowledge the existence of our arguments shows just how much is getting into your head. So try and tackle our posts first.

Or if you prefer to take the other path:

Pick your poison.

I don't dissagree, I say repeatedly the max pp limit of an event is far above what the AI go into the event with. Like I said a 600pp race the AI have closer to 536pp. I go on to say PD uses pp to give the user an advantage so the user can win at various skill levels.

I've not denied or said anything to the contrary, how you can go on like Ive ignored that is in itself ignorant.

Its you who don't seem to be reading my post, as the fact that you don't recognize or acknowledge the existence of my arguments shows just how much is getting into your head.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

Maybe GT needs 3 difficulty modes for the AI like most other games?

I thought we already had them. In order of pace:
Safety car conditions
Speeding safety car conditions
Easy

What? I never said in the OP that the AI were fast; I was just pointing out some similarities between what I've seen the AI do and what real drivers do.

 

[Nato_777]

For me the biggest problem with GT's AI isn't the AI itself so much as the whole racing mentality Gran Turismo takes with the 'chase the rabbit' approach. From what I've seen the AI can be actually pretty decent when it's allowed to be, but because it is governed by the 'rabbit' race strategy it becomes very inconsistant and stupid over the course of the race.
If the racing was changed to a more realistic model of racing (with proper grid/standing starts) and the AI allowed to run at it's best throughout the race many of the current issues would be much reduced. That said there definitely is room for improvement of the AI itself too.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

Always room for improvement, you make good points to consider. I think qualifying was pulled as it was in the earlier GT games, because who doesn't get pole position? They would have to put the AI on a LEVEL playing field for them to be competition out the box taking a pole position from the user. I spent every race starting and staying in first, grid start was the only time I saw the AI unless I'm lapping them. It SUCKED, I dont agree with fighting from last every race as we are forced to pass at odd locations when in a real race we woudnt pass at or as aggressively. Its one of those things its hard to find a solution to please everybody.

 

[1241Penguin]

I don't dissagree, I say repeatedly the max pp limit of an event is far above what the AI go into the event with. Like I said a 600pp race the AI have closer to 536pp. I go on to say PD uses pp to give the user an advantage so the user can win at various skill levels.

I've not denied or said anything to the contrary, how you can go on like Ive ignored that is in itself ignorant.

Its you who don't seem to be reading my post, as the fact that you don't recognize or acknowledge the existence of my arguments shows just how much is getting into your head.

We heard you the first time.

That is not a fix for bad or slow AI, it should not be up to us to make it challenging by having an unrealistic playing field, that should be done by the developer by allowing a range of difficulty settings.

Make it so that people who struggle to win can select an easier difficulty and those that are fast, can have a decent race at max difficulty where the AI does not brake randomly and takes apexes 20mph below what is possible. Having extra rewards for choosing the higher difficulty would be an added bonus too.

If you were in a football team that was ranked as world class, would you rather have a decent, hard fought for game against another world class team or would you rather have a "decent" game against a small town, low ranked team and be told that you're only allowed to walk rather than run, and must leave the goal wide open on purpose so that the other team can score some goals?

There shouldn't be a situation where your car is significantly better than that of the AI's. It's the job of the game to pair you up with cars of the same class.

I've had plenty of "fun" races against the AI by driving a much, much slower car than what the AI is using and can still win. I have done what you keep suggesting for years wth the GT franchise and gone even further with it, it does not change the fact the AI is bad. I wonder how many more times it needs to be said that fixing the bad AI is the developer's problem and not ours. Do you play first person shooters? If the AI is terrible, do you just stand there and let yourself get shot to have a good game?

You keep saying that myself and others need to stop using the maximum PP available. I thought it would be pretty clear by now that I don't, as do the others. As for looking for things to fault; no, it's called stating the facts. On the other hand, you seem to be doing whatever you can to jump to the game's defense at every turn.

Please name me any other game or sport in the world where you purposely nerf your performance to have a life enhancing challenge, or where there are such mismatches in the level of competition. You are literally on the verge of implying it is our fault for being fast drivers and we should have sympathy for badly written code, it's our fault the that the developers didn't do a better job.

For the record, I use CM tires almost exclusively.

Why should I have to go through all that for some decent competitive racing when other racing games do it for me? Other games have different difficult settings for drivers of various skill levels. GT doesn't have that. It's a poor attempt by PD to cater to the lowest common denominator.

It's not something the players have control of either. If we did it would exist in the form of a difficultly slider.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I've not seen anything I consider a counter point relevant to the points I'm making, just the standard complaining. All the main points of mine have gone unchallenged directly.

Where do I start?

Its really as easy as lowering your pp to a level closer to the same as the AI and removing the assist that make it too easy to be consistent. Presto more competitive and more entertaining.

Now when your car is more evenly matched and all the "easy to be consistent" assist are off, the AI won't let you by so easy.

I posted this video, where my vehicle was already at a lower spec than the AI's, and then added the ridiculous challenge of doing the race in reverse.

Your response was:

This misses my point. Its not hard to beat AI when they dontt have the maximum pp for the event and you do

You also said this

Let's see that done with faster more evenly matched cars......

You failed to notice that I was already at a lower spec than those AI cars. I then counted your point again with this:

What difference would faster cars make? ...... I already told you that I had a lower top speed in that video, the only reason why I almost matched them on the straight is because I was able to get on the accelerator that much earlier. The same thing would happen.....
If you would like, I could also post up the videos of me winning races with a car that is 150pp lower than the AI on a circuit that is mostly about power, and with three grades of tire lower with no aids or ABS. (A stock Renault Avantime on CS against high powered supercars on SS tires for example).

You response to my last paragraph was:

As silly as it is, I'd like to see you try.

I already said that I had done this. Notice I said videos, which is a plural, meaning that I have done it more than once already.

My next response was:

I explained why the result would be the same. My "advantage" into, through and out of the corners would negate their better top speed. It is why my 200hp Avantime was able to "beat" 500hp supercars on a high speed circuit.

However, later you post this:

Max pp is much faster than the AI cars, then add assist making it easy to drive consistent, and the behavior is closer to how does AI behave when they are completely overmatched vs how do they behave in an evenly matched race.

Which shows that you have completely ignored what I said, again. Followed by:

I'm sorry nobody will hold your hand to tell you how to have fun and create competitive races if you are any good.

Yet again you have failed to take in what I have said. I then counter your point with

That is not a fix for bad or slow AI, it should not be up to us to make it challenging by having an unrealistic playing field, that should be done by the developer by allowing a range of difficulty settings.

Your response was

I can only say its not just GT6, that's life.

Myself and 1241Penguin asked:

Let me know of another racing game where you need to deliberately trick the game into choosing cars that are much faster than yours in order to have a good competitive race.

Please name me any other game or sport in the world where you purposely nerf your performance to have a life enhancing challenge, or where there are such mismatches in the level of competition.

Your response to these questions was not an answer at all, again, you ignored what we had to say:

The game is designed so every race can be won by a multitude of driver skills. If your better than a noob, then you might have to take it upon yourself to use the features of the game to build better competition. You don't have to. Its like anything in life, its up to you to get the most out of it, or choose not to and instead spend your time complaining about things that you are in control of. I am in control of how I use the features in the game to build competition for myself, or if I choose to just moan about PD programing.

I'm not even going to bother with the rest, I think this is enough as it is. Yet you then start going on about us not using the maximum PP for an event again and have the sheer cheek to say that it is us that are not listening. Good grief.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

We heard you the first time.

Apparently not as the quote that quote replies to it wasn't directed at you as it was not a replied to any of your post, its a replied to the post it quotes as CLEARLY in that post it seems like they have not

But YOU have been heard

@lewis, your being highly immature I hope you can realize that, your last point is a joke not even worth looking at. I won't waist effort to correct you again as I already have...

I did entertain your Lil video but you are oblivious to my point and ignored my offer to choose the car and event to show you something. I know your scarred , its okay I'd have you show up yourself and that's not acceptable now is it.

Why are you so fixated on my opinion, and changing it? Are you obsessed with me naw, I'm good, thanks. Do I not have the right to an opinion even if it differed from yours. Allow me to dissagree or you are just being childish.

Like I said before your free to dissagree, but know that you agreeing or not doesn't make you any more "right" than anybody else.

My points are simple and clear

1) to anylize the AI behavior we must look at the reasoning behind the behavior and rules that guides them.

2) PD offsets pp to give users an advantage at max pp limits.

3) we can create competitive races if we choose to

As soon as you even come close to addressing any of my points, I'll look at your cute little video, maybe read that long immature massive out of context multiquote

 

[gtnoobie]

Gt6outlaw, Lewis belongs to the top echelon of GT players with lap time closely matching the top. As such it is difficult for him to find any challenge even if he drop his pp n tire choice to near ridiculous level.

Some like me, decidedly average, do find the AI tough n at times challenging when using 100pp below max or downgrade one level if tire or both.

Then there was me in the past, complete noob, when winning is near impossible without all aids on and using overpowered cars.

GT tried to cater to all levels and fails to. There is no way the quick upscaling of difficulty in GT through licenses will work. Both talent and tremenduous amount of time needed to reach say lewis level and will make 99.9% rage quit before game is complete if the AI drives as well.

There is indeed need to have different level of difficulties like in most games. Currently even at max difficulty in the so called expert level, the AI is erratic and sometimes brilliant (to my level) sometimes strange.

For your info, lewis had always been an alien fast driver with DS3 or wheels since i joined gtplanet during gt5. Some like me is pathetically ranked around 5 to 60k in TT depending on whether i try and uses the top tune or just run 2 laps and stock car near pp. For people like me, gt6 AI in recent intermediate level is great.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I'm not even going to warrant you with any further discussion, you have made yourself look like a total fool, ignorant and a hypocrit. Good luck with life and keep fighting the good fight.

 

[1241Penguin]

I suggest you get one at your local Home Depot. Nothing beats their price.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

I'm not even going to warrant you with any further discussion, you have made yourself look like a total fool, ignorant and a hypocrit. Good luck with life and keep fighting the good fight.

In my eyes your the foolish one and not worth the sweat from.

I would entertain intelligent discussion on the matter but have yet to be confronted with any.

Do you contest the 3 main points of mine? What one and how so?

1) AI have less than max pp in an event

Is that in dispute? This is a fact not an oppinion

Its quite important as to property look at the AI ability we should be seeing how they react to an evenly matched car vs a car with 65 more pp seems nobody has considered this so I brought it up. Its said this is known, but I see nobody applying this knowledge to testing....

2) its important to understand the reasoning and rules that dictate AI actions in order to intelegently understand what the AI is doing.

Again important and not getting the attention it deserves so I brought it up.

This is another Fact, but if you do crappy testing so be it. If you dissagree, I find that to be foolish.

3) we can make competitive races if we choose to.

Again a Fact although it may take more for some than others.

So continue acting the fool, your apparently good at it.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

In my eyes your the foolish one and not worth the sweat from.

I would entertain intelligent discussion on the matter but have yet to be confronted with any.

Do you contest the 3 main points of mine? What one and how so?

1) AI have less than max pp in an event

Is that in dispute? This is a fact not an oppinion

2) its important to understand the reasoning and rules that dictate AI actions in order to intelegently understand what the AI is doing.

This is another Fact

3) we can make competitive races if we choose to.

Again a Fact although it may take more for some than others.

So continue acting the fool, your apparently good at it.

These guys aren't gonna give up. Might be better for you if you just leave.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

These guys aren't gonna give up. Might be better for you if you just leave.

Your probably right.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Always room for improvement, you make good points to consider. I think qualifying was pulled as it was in the earlier GT games, because who doesn't get pole position? They would have to put the AI on a LEVEL playing field for them to be competition out the box taking a pole position from the user. I spent every race starting and staying in first, grid start was the only time I saw the AI unless I'm lapping them. It SUCKED, I dont agree with fighting from last every race as we are forced to pass at odd locations when in a real race we woudnt pass at or as aggressively. Its one of those things its hard to find a solution to please everybody.

This is true for GT, BECAUSE the AI suck and there is no difficulty slider. Other games don't have this issue. I am a pretty decent pilot, above average at least, and did not get a pole position in Grid Autosport until my 22nd race in the touring car class. My average starting position is around 6th or 7th. I can't remember how long it took for me to actually win a championship, probably 50+ races.

It is not hard to find a solution for everybody, that's quite easy. Get the AI on pace, get them behaving like real drivers, and throw in sliders for overall pace, aggression, defending, passing etc. PD needs to move AI up the priority list because right now it's pretty much at the very bottom, competing with engine sounds for the bottom of the list.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

This is true for GT, BECAUSE the AI suck and there is no difficulty slider. Other games don't have this issue. I am a pretty decent pilot, above average at least, and did not get a pole position in Grid Autosport until my 22nd race in the touring car class. My average starting position is around 6th or 7th. I can't remember how long it took for me to actually win a championship, probably 50+ races.

It is not hard to find a solution for everybody, that's quite easy. Get the AI on pace, get them behaving like real drivers, and throw in sliders for overall pace, aggression, defending, passing etc. PD needs to move AI up the priority list because right now it's pretty much at the very bottom, competing with engine sounds for the bottom of the list.

Maybe PD has a different list of priorities and since they actually know the inner workings of the game & it is their game with Kaz vision, they are in a better position to prioritize. Better ai, its not even on my list so you might be happy they don't go by my priorities as I am glad they don't follow yours. PD has done well in the last 15years without input from either of us. PD should handle PD business as PD sees fit. They have been doing a great job or I wouldn't be playing it still.

 

[Exorcet]

My take, mostly from GT5 and other games, not so much GT6.

I know this will attract a lot of debate, so let me start off with this: Yes, GT6's AI is pretty slow.

But the thing is, I don't really think it's as unrealistically terrible at driving as everyone says. Is it pro-level? No. Not by a long shot. But some - even many - of its behaviors do actually mirror, relatively closely, what a driver would do in real life.

Now, the AI's rubberbanding has attracted a lot of discussion and criticism, so let me start off with what I make of it.

The AI's rubberbanding only kicks in at specific stages of the race: when you gain the lead, and at about the halfway point, provided you are ahead.

A race is a free for all and not one vs the pack, which it feels like in a few racing games. No one should care too much about you specifically.

As far as preserving the car goes, that's a matter of ability, not speed. If you can drive fast without pushing too hard (and the AI can) there's no point to going slow. If the race is ridiculously short, like many in GT, all the more reason to not mess around.

Next up is the AI's tendency to push the player off the road.

If you know there's another car around you need to look out for it. You can't suddenly forget just because you're on a certain part of the track. Especially if you're trying to keep your car together. I've raced online in packs and it's not impossible to see everyone keeping free of major contact everywhere while being all within a tire's width of each other. The AI just falls short here. It should never be regularly pushing you off track. This also goes back to the player vs pack idea. Each individual AI should be trying to win. They should care more about keeping out of trouble than putting the player into trouble.

 

[JaseScott]

Do you even realise how difficult that was to control the car?

Which bit were you finding difficult?
Just a beginners event.
I reckon controller easier, just hold upside down & steer normal.
I felt like a dentist driving a forklift on the wheel.
Harder to drive drunk in GTA.

Wouldn't surprise me if you could actually drive a late model GTR like that.
They really are that easy to drive.

Notice somebody else beat current beginners seasonal.
Congratulations.
Was that the right thing to say?
Not so sure anymore...

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Which bit were you finding difficult?
Just a beginners event.
I reckon controller easier, just hold upside down & steer normal.
I felt like a dentist driving a forklift on the wheel.
Harder to drive drunk in GTA.

Wouldn't surprise me if you could actually drive a late model GTR like that.
They really are that easy to drive.

Notice somebody else beat current beginners seasonal.
Congratulations.
Was that the right thing to say?
Not so sure anymore...

Congrats on ramming the walls and other cars repeatedly while missing the racing lines, and missing the entire point of the video in the first place.

The point all along was that this should not be possible. I have no idea why those of you who see PD as doing no wrong turn things into a pissing contest.

At the end of the day, some of you are just happy with everything, others would like to see vast improvements to enhance their experience. Some of us that are not fully happy point out what it is that they are not happy with and provide evidence of what it is, and then we get pointless posts like the one above while others attempt to say that we are awful human beings for not loving everything we get from Gran Turismo, despite there being many other products on the market that do a better job at many of the same things.

Not everything has to be about your pride and e-penis size.