Is GT6's AI actually as unrealistic as we think it is?

[GT6OuTLaW]

I agree its a race/chase type of event, that's very true.

How this should be? That's too deep..

Its not perfect but possibly it was done this way to account for 1000 cars. This possibly was the best option, all the factors NOBODY HERE KNOWS , tuning each car to be competitive on every track is not really on option (great point BTW) now is it, so PD uses a pp system and let's the user use a car with more pp. Simple, not hard to figure out, easy to do, no trouble at all, simply run closer to AI pp and they will be more competitive the closer you get, and to make it interesting see how far you can go.

Its not perfect but competitive races can be made. Using a car that is matched up closer to the AI we can then see how they react when against an equally matched car vs how they deal with a much faster car dominating them, as most people have been commentting on AI reacting to the user thats in a faster car and most often while using driving aids to make co sistent driving easy.

 

[Thimble]

Its not perfect but competitive races can be made. Using a car that is matched up closer to the AI we can then see how they react when against an equally matched car vs how they deal with a much faster car dominating them, as most people have been commentting on AI reacting to the user thats in a faster car and most often while using driving aids to make co sistent driving easy.

nope.avi

As I said literally 2 pages ago, I was driving a M3 identical to the AI rabbit in one of the recen seasonals. Only difference was he was on SH tyres, I was on CM. I took 9 seconds out of him per lap, over a 60 second lap. All aids bar ABS off, DS3 user. You can't get more closely matched than identical cars, and the AI still drove like nuns on the way to the shopping centre.

 

[Nato_777]

Has anyone thought that the AI behavior now are more due to design choice by PD ?

AI behaviour is definitely by PD's design choice - the slowing down to let you catch up and rubber banding once you've passed are features of the 'race' model they've adopted and not their inability to program a decent AI. The AI is handicapped by the rules of engagement PD have set for them.

What GT offers aren't races at all (well, at least in my opinion), but something that resembles overtake challenges more than anything. But sure, you can make them more competitive by downgrading your car. That's not how it should work though.

Totally agree - the races are not really races at all - at least not in a pure racing sense. Again, I believe this is why the AI is so bad/strange. Sadly I do not enjoy racing in Gran Turismo anymore as it really doesn't feel like racing. I do still absolutely love the driving experience GT gives however.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

@Lewis_Hamilton_ must be annoying to argue with those who'll make up so many excuses for PD's lack efforts, the AI included. I can't believe others are saying you have to/should lower your car's PP to make a race with the AI competitive... It is the developer's job to program the AI right to make them competitive against the players, it is NOT up to we to do the job for them. Honestly I am laughing my ass off right now by the excuses being made. I say don't argue with those people who over defend everything unless they wake back up to reality.

To be fair, it's not a lack of effort from the two AI programmers - they're probably worked to their absolute maximum - it's simply a case of not having enough employees working on AI. Not enough cooks in the kitchen, you might say.

 

[TokoTurismo]

To be fair, it's not a lack of effort from the two AI programmers - they're probably worked to their absolute maximum - it's simply a case of not having enough employees working on AI. Not enough cooks in the kitchen, you might say.

True, true.

 

[avens]

To be fair, it's not a lack of effort from the two AI programmers - they're probably worked to their absolute maximum - it's simply a case of not having enough employees working on AI. Not enough cooks in the kitchen, you might say.

Who knows really. Maybe 2 is enough if they are good at it, maybe it's not. We would have to compare it to other games that have acceptable or really good AI, whether current or of previous generation. I hope someone does for us

However, what's clear is that PD must hire new employees to do AI, also that PD has by far the biggest funding in this genre and that other PS3 games -more so PS2 and previous- have considerably better AI, so there's no excuses really.

OK that aspect is non-controverted, but I'll go further and say a controversial one.

In the real world companies do not keep employees that do their job as badly as the PD AI and sounds team have, especially when they had 10 years to do it (yes, 10). What companies do is not only just hiring more employees, but replacing them and that means firing the previous ones.

I know it sounds politically incorrect, but think about this. We know PD has more budget than iRacing and also that iRacing does have way, way, way better than sounds than GT6: what do you do. The answer is get the new said team and trim the fat, not keep the previous team sitting at the corner doing nothing. The same can be applied to AI, which is getting a new team from another game to replace the existing one, the team that has failed for 10 years and counting.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

Who knows really. Maybe 2 is enough if they are good at it, maybe it's not. However, what's clear is that PD must hire new employees to do AI, also that PD has by far the biggest funding in this genre and that other PS3 games -more so PS2 and previous- have considerably better AI, so there's no excuses.

I was criticized quite a lot here when I said the sound team should be fired, as they simply cannot do their job to current standards, but now you see I was right and PD is finally acting accordingly . In the end if those two cannot do it -we know they can't- and there's another two that can, the answer is quite obvious really. Same about sound: if PD has more budget than iRacing and iRacing does have way, way, way better sounds than GT6, then what I'd do is hiring those iRacing guys and fire the current sound team.

Sorry if it sounds politically wrong, but companies do not keep employees that do their job as badly as those two said teams, especially when they had 10 years to do it (yes, 10). Effort is not enough on its own, and while I don't know anything about AI, what I can say is that I can see the results of their job and the results are frankly awful, not just bad.

The size of the budget doesn't matter in this regard; it's the size of the company that matters. PD, despite having huge funding, only has a third of the staff of Turn 10, and since Sony's the parent company, they probably have a huge say as to who gets hired and fired. Besides, it's clear that PD wants to focus their attention elsewhere - namely on online features and the Course Creator (which no doubt is taking more time and resources than they originally imagined) - so they're not focusing on AI as much. Other studios have much bigger AI teams, so that's why the AI in other racing games is better.

Besides, being fired is a heck of a thing to wish on someone. I say, just bring in about four more guys to work on AI and everything will be hunky-dory: the AI will be much improved, and no one has to be fired.

 

[avens]

The size of the budget doesn't matter in this regard; it's the size of the company that matters. PD, despite having huge funding, only has a third of the staff of Turn 10, and since Sony's the parent company, they probably have a huge say as to who gets hired and fired. Besides, it's clear that PD wants to focus their attention elsewhere - namely on online features and the Course Creator (which no doubt is taking more time and resources than they originally imagined) - so they're not focusing on AI as much. Other studios have much bigger AI teams, so that's why the AI in other racing games is better.

Besides, being fired is a heck of a thing to wish on someone. I say, just bring in about four more guys to work on AI and everything will be hunky-dory: the AI will be much improved, and no one has to be fired.

First things first, I just finished editing the previous post. Content is the same however, but it does look nicer.

Problem is things don't work like that in the real world. Sorry but it's true, because there's always limited resources destined to one aspect no matter how much budget is increased. To put a concrete example, if Griffith, Chippy and other sound designers are accepted in PD, which is a company that is looking for employees because the previous team didn't cut it (as in the pit stop blog), that necessarily means cutting some heads. The same has to happen in AI.

I'd also like to see how large was and how much time had the teams of other games that are known for having way better AI than GT6. We know PD's is a 2-man team that had exactly 10 years. Considering the examples don't necessarily have to be current games, for instance GTR2's and IGP's most probably had lesser resources on the AI department and way less time, plus it was a period with less knowledge about the matter than today, yet they still made a better job.

Furthermore, in a business that's so technology based as this one, in videogames you don't see the same tech guys being at the top of their profession for 20 years or more, unless very exceptionally. What companies do is replacing them....except in the GT series and it shows in their products.

In the end this is just like what happened with the sound issue. I was criticized very much when I wrote this back in the GT5 days, which is essentially getting rid of the employees that can't do their well job for 10 years and counting then get people from other games and from this community that can do it, but after all that criticism now you see PD did exactly what I wrote and that I was right all along. I'd go as far as saying that if there's ever a meaningful improvement on AI, in the game in which it happens none of those two names will be in the credits, and it won't be a coincidence

 

[Stylel_Code]

They need more employees, they are finally hiring. Let's see if the new ones will make something better, although it is clear you can only make something better in that case..
Also avens, you mentioned some GTP members that can do the job for it such as Griffith or Chippy. I am curious if some asked PD to apply?

 

[HKS racer]

Sorry you must be, because your going on like you are. What you see as a spectator is not the whole story as far as points and being "strict" about rules. You must be confused because you have no clue what your talking about, its almost as if you haven't understood a single one of my post.

Dude get a grip and go watch some real motorsport instad of playing the lame Charlie Whiting pre-race briefing role in a forum.

I can only say its not just GT6, that's life. If you don't take it upon yourself to get the most out of it you never will.

I'm sorry nobody will hold your hand to tell you how to have fun and create competitive races if you are any good. Its up to you.

Seriously though. Does PD need to tell a crappy driver to use more than 500pp to win a 600pp event? Well its not brain surgery to figure If I'm too good for the Ai while I'm at full pp maybe lower pp would be more competitive.

Are you after a competitive race? I don't know because it seems more are just looking for things to find fault ingnoring all the incredible things GT6 has right.

You know, in real life you can't pass a Mercedes with a Marussia, it's not going to happen. in GT6 you can pass a 600pp car with a 500pp car or less.

 

[MustangManiac]

Why not put an end to this foolishness and put up a poll, I couldn't imagine very many people saying there is nothing wrong with the ai in this game...I could be wrong though, I suppose

 

[HKS racer]

To be fair, it's not a lack of effort from the two AI programmers - they're probably worked to their absolute maximum - it's simply a case of not having enough employees working on AI. Not enough cooks in the kitchen, you might say.

Kunos are 10 people for the whole game.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

Dude get a grip and go watch some real motorsport instad of playing the lame Charlie Whiting pre-race briefing role in a forum.

You know, in real life you can't pass a Mercedes with a Marussia, it's not going to happen. in GT6 you can pass a 600pp car with a 500pp car or less.

He's been trying to lessen his involvement with the thread. I don't think he appreciates you trying to drag him back into it.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

Funny thing is in a 600pp race the AI are closer to 500pp, so no big deal eh close to 500pp passing another close to 500pp car. (O_O) get a grip...

 

[HKS racer]

Funny thing is in a 600pp race the AI are closer to 500pp, so no big deal eh close to 500pp passing another close to 500pp car. (O_O) get a grip...

It's a big deal when you have other racing games like grid and grid autosport where you are actually racing with similar spec cars and you are not killing the competition, instead you are battling for position without being 10 times faster on corner entry.

He's been trying to lessen his involvement with the thread. I don't think he appreciates you trying to drag him back into it.

I just raplied to his quote. You know that thing called Alerts. It's has been done to allow people respond when they come back to the forum.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

It's a big deal when you have other racing games like grid and grid autosport where you are actually racing with similar spec cars and you are not killing the competition, instead you are battling for position without being 10 times faster on corner entry.

I don't care, Grid won't help us understand GT6 Ai any better and in case my point is over your head as it appears to be. I'm interested in understanding the Ai not just blindly saying they suck. So what, good bad IDC, my goal is understanding. If you don't want to, great, go someplace where they are talking about something your interested in

 

[HKS racer]

I don't care, Grip won't help us understand GT6 Ai any better and in case my point is over your head as it appears to be. I'm interested in understanding the Ai not just blindly saying they suck. So what, good bad IDC, my goal is understanding. If you don't want to, great, go someplace where they are talking about something your interested in

I'm sorry to disappoint you but I know most of the AI patterns in GT and I'm allowed to post in this forum even if you are not happy with my posts.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

I'm sorry to disappoint you but I know most of the AI patterns in GT and I'm allowed to post in this forum even if you are not happy with my posts.

Post away, and away, draw some of those pretty patterns for us. lol. Good for you. You've not disappointed me, I never expected greatness, just more of the same-o same-o.

 

[super_gt]

I agree its a race/chase type of event, that's very true.

How this should be? That's too deep..

Its not perfect but possibly it was done this way to account for 1000 cars. This possibly was the best option, all the factors NOBODY HERE KNOWS , tuning each car to be competitive on every track is not really on option (great point BTW) now is it, so PD uses a pp system and let's the user use a car with more pp. Simple, not hard to figure out, easy to do, no trouble at all, simply run closer to AI pp and they will be more competitive the closer you get, and to make it interesting see how far you can go.

Its not perfect but competitive races can be made. Using a car that is matched up closer to the AI we can then see how they react when against an equally matched car vs how they deal with a much faster car dominating them, as most people have been commentting on AI reacting to the user thats in a faster car and most often while using driving aids to make co sistent driving easy.

I competed yesterday in Dream Car Championship on Nurburgring 24H race with McLaren MP4 12C'10 stock no oil change all aids and abs off sports medium tires and I managed to beat Jaguar XJR-9 and BMW V12 LMR
This means that AI is very far from perfect.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

I competed yesterday in Dream Car Championship on Nurburgring 24H race with McLaren MP4 12C'10 stock no oil change all aids and abs off sports medium tires and I managed to beat Jaguar XJR-9 and BMW V12 LMR
This means that AI is very far from perfect.

Why quote me, I thought the reply should address the quote


Who says GT6 ai is even good let alone perfect?

I thought everybody knew GT6 Ai leave much to be desired, are you seriously posting that as if its informing anybody of anything they don't already know?

So wow, you can see the obvious as many here seem to be, so if you guys are not done posting the obvious, please get it all out so some of us can have an intelligent conversation with out being interrupted every so often because a member ( who has a right to comment) pops in every now and then to say "the sky is blue" OR "keeps breathing, don't forget to blink"

 

[HKS racer]

Post away, and away, draw some of those pretty patterns for us. lol. Good for you

I post where and when I want. One important thing to point out about GT6 AI and one thing you and the other guy missed, is the Spirra video proves PD is trolling the user giving him the illusion to have a close race even when he made silly mistakes. AI enter in "let's park and wait that noob" pattern. That's one of the things people like me hates the most. I remember GT4 AI, they were stupid yes, but they didn't wait me when I missed a chicane or crashed into a wall.
So, considering the realism argument in the title's thread I can tell you that's quite a problem.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

Congratulations for you, nobody said you couldn't. Put on your big boy pants today eh? "Huff n puff, I do what I want arrrrrr" lol aren't you special.

You can post all you like but so can I I can also tie my own shoes, and tie my own laces.... Can you? Seriously, I woke up to YOU dragging ME back into it, grow up.

 

[super_gt]

Why quote me

I quote you because you're the smartest guy here today.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

I quote you because you're the smartest guy here today.

Smart-*** maybe lol

 

[HKS racer]

I can also tie my own shoes, and tie my own laces....

And keep your own head under the sand like ostriches.
Good evening.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

And keep your own head under the sand like ostriches.
Good evening.

Sure thing, if you say so lol I must have my head in the sand not to run around posting the obvious as you do. So highly informed you are. Waters wet, the sky is blue, and good for you..

More, get it all out, vent it all. Come on arent you upset with GT6 AI? Let them have it. When your done playing games let me know, so I don't bother you while your playing. When the games are over some of us would like to be more than jerks with our heads in the sand.... Funny how often accusations are more self reflections..... Get YOUR head out the sand, oh wait, I'm sorry. Your head goes in any sand you want, I have no business telling you to pull it out, you will pull it out when YOU decide... Arrrr hufff n pufff

 

[Scaff]

All of you - argue the point and don't attack the person.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

All of you - argue the point and don't attack the person.

I was just about to say something along those lines - thanks Scaff!

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

So moving to a direction more productive. I'd like to test this "slowing down in a corner" behavior. What exactly triggers it.

My initial testing shows a trigger point being in the corner entry position. If my front bumper passes the halfway point on the AI car they slow, but if I go in less hot trailing them, they go through the corner without a slow down moment. Once they do it though, it chain reacts all Ai cars following. Like a train.

Its easy to trigger when I am maxed pp, but occurs far less frequently when my car is not as close to max HP. My cars ability to stick the nose in deep is a trigger.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

The AI lifts whenever you are within a certain radius of them, it doesn't matter where you and the AI car actually are, that is why they will lift even on a circuit like SSRX, whether it is you passing them or them passing you. They even do it to each other.