Is GT6's AI actually as unrealistic as we think it is?

[GT6OuTLaW]

The AI lifts whenever you are within a certain radius of them, it doesn't matter where you and the AI car actually are, that is why they will lift even on a circuit like SSRX, whether it is you passing them or them passing you. They even do it to each other.

I get different results in my testing. I see position having much to do with it. I have been running races at Silverstone in the GT3 event. I'm driving a stock GT3 Nismo with an oil change and dealership settings.

To mark the slow down point I get in the Ai car to see what point they slow, but its not as frequent as it was in 1.08 (when I spent many moons running this event and it was when an where I saw this behavior the most.) Would you like me to post a replay of the AI showing the gas and brake input of them in corners NOT letting off? If you say it occurs in every corner no matter where you are how come it doesn't when I'm right there in a crowd of Ai cars?

I'm also testing A-spec Ai in the higher divisions. in ia events the ai might not be as aggressive as higher levels, I'm not testing Arcade race Ai either, I'm doing a-spec Ai testing. Is your testing all done in arcade mode? Arcade mode will have the aggressive adjustment and driver level adjustment impacting it. I'm sure "passive" settings will trigger passive behavior, my Ai is full aggression Pro mode. Although I think the aggressiveness setting may only be for arcade mode, if its for all, this might play an interesting role.

 

[Morgoth_666]

The AI lifts whenever you are within a certain radius of them, it doesn't matter where you and the AI car actually are, that is why they will lift even on a circuit like SSRX, whether it is you passing them or them passing you. They even do it to each other.

Well they generally don't do it when you get close while directly behind them(and I assume in front but I haven't tested that), only alongside and within a certain radius. That is one of the few improvements in GT6 from the post-parking-patch GT5 AI(oh how I wish we could have that mediocre original GT5 AI back), along with a slight increase in their willingness to use a second path when racing each other.

I've never quite been able to figure out exactly what makes them decide to slow down or not however. Usually whenever they are turning(even gently) if you overlap them on either side they will do it, but occasionally they won't. As a rule I have found that the best way to get them to fight side-by-side is to make certain you get fully alongside whilst braking in a straight line. They still do brake if you pull alongside exiting a corner, but that also seems to be toned down a bit from the way it worked in GT5. It used to be that they would slam on the brakes if you pulled alongside while all the way on the farthest side of the road from them in the gentle sweeping turn after Tetre Rouge at Le Mans, I haven't noticed it being quite that sensitive in GT6 but haven't specifically tested it either.

One quite related thing that has puzzled me across many games, not just Gran Turismo: why is it impossible for the AI cars to simply lift the throttle a little? In many cases they are doing the more-or-less correct thing by backing off but they are incapable of going to half-throttle or off-throttle for a half a second or so when that is all they need to do and all any human would. It is either brake(usually hard) or else full-throttle. You can see this same behavior in corners that only require a slight lift as well as when trying to deal with other cars in close proximity.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

One quite related thing that has puzzled me across many games, not just Gran Turismo: why is it impossible for the AI cars to simply lift the throttle a little? In many cases they are doing the more-or-less correct thing by backing off but they are incapable of going to half-throttle or off-throttle for a half a second or so when that is all they need to do and all any human would. It is either brake(usually hard) or else full-throttle. You can see this same behavior in corners that only require a slight lift as well as when trying to deal with other cars in close proximity.

That is a pretty annoying AI response to see, it's neither realistic and it costs them a lot of speed. I can't think of too many games where I've seen this happen though.

I do prefer how Assetto Corsa and I think Auto Club Revolution handle this (possible F1 2013 too?), they may tap the brake and throttle in this situation, but they do it very quickly - several times a second and only for that one second, meaning they maintain the speed that you (or other AI car) are doing rather than slowing right down and falling back. During that time, they also actually try and find a line around the slower vehicle rather than sitting behind or beside it.

While that method is still not perfect, it is a lot better.

Speaking of Auto Club Revolution, I haven't played that for a few months, I'll have to boot it up and see how that game is getting along sometime soon. Developement progress was going slow however which is why I started sticking to other sims. Still, can't complain too much because the game is totally free.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

First pic, me diving deep braking late into the corner

Cut past the BMW real close





AI is not holding back and takes me on exit as I went wide diving deep.



AI is WOT with me on his side





He's not letting off




I'm right there, we are still side by side



The 2 of us hit the brake for the corner at the same time and keep position.

Him





Me, I was pulling on him and had a few mph on him but we are side by side all the way.




Both back on quick and still in same position.
I think he even braked a bit later than I did, but I was pulling on him from the last corner going faster than him trying to catch him. He is forced to go wide as I'm in the inside line.

Moment of let off, but he's about to hit apex, and I'm in the racing line with my bumper ahead of his.



Where am I at this time



Interesting, did you see it?



Didnt let off until I in the racing line got my nose in front just before apex, Hes right back on it after.... He let off for apex then back on it for exit. Nobody let off just because I was close by, to say this happens just because I'm close is not just wrong its ignorant. Its sad that when somebody comes around to look a little deeper into something like this, he gets flooded with people blowing hot air....

It shows @Lewis_Hamilton_ and @HKS racer are completely wrong, the Ai didn't let off just by me being close to them.... Its far from as simple as these guys makes it out to be and IMO warrents further anylizing. I'm not talking out my butt hole, but this misterious behavior of letting off whenever I'm near them just does NOT occur as many people describe it. So how accurate are those post?

Guys were so quick to trash my opinion, looks like my opinion is based on more than just hot air, but the thread is still steeming......

 

[Morgoth_666]

That is a pretty annoying AI response to see, it's neither realistic and it costs them a lot of speed. I can't think of too many games where I've seen this happen though.

I do prefer how Assetto Corsa and I think Auto Club Revolution handle this (possible F1 2013 too?), they may tap the brake and throttle in this situation, but they do it very quickly - several times a second and only for that one second, meaning they maintain the speed that you (or other AI car) are doing rather than slowing right down and falling back. During that time, they also actually try and find a line around the slower vehicle rather than sitting behind or beside it.

While that method is still not perfect, it is a lot better.

Speaking of Auto Club Revolution, I haven't played that for a few months, I'll have to boot it up and see how that game is getting along sometime soon. Developement progress was going slow however which is why I started sticking to other sims. Still, can't complain too much because the game is totally free.

I probably wasn't quite clear enough, most of the other games I've seen it in do handle this better than GT does - it's just a similar mechanic of using brake instead of lifting. Most recently I've noticed that's how they AI cars in Grid Autosport do it, but they are able to just brake for a moment and get back on it, not the 2-second massive slowdown you see in GT5 and 6. I remember rFactor did roughly what you describe in Assetto Corsa and Auto Club Revolution with the off-and-on brake-and-gas approach. It was very unnerving to hear them doing that near you but it did usually work except that they often didn't look far enough ahead to avoid slower-class cars and cars recovering from incidents(another common problem).

The GT AI does seem to have a tendency to only look for an opening for a moment and then settle in for quite a while before attempting to try anything else. I wonder if they may only be able to make choices beyond following the path they are on once every few seconds to somehow save resources?

 

[avens]

They need more employees, they are finally hiring. Let's see if the new ones will make something better, although it is clear you can only make something better in that case..
Also avens, you mentioned some GTP members that can do the job for it such as Griffith or Chippy. I am curious if some asked PD to apply?

Chippy wrote that he already did. I don't know about Griffith...but I assume he did too

 

[UnkaD]

That post raises another question, or issue, that I've come across. According to that string of images, the AI in the BMW shaved off 7 mph at full throttle without braking.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

i hadnt checked but looks like hes turning, I'll reload the replay and watch exactly why the speed drops.

I snapped some pics and added it to the pic string.

At entry he let's off for a milisec to tap the brake then back on it right away as hes turning in (I do it at the same time so we stay side by side, neither of us can flat out that corner) & he holds throttle till right before apex (let off pic is in the coner) where he half throttles I take over on the inside and exit in front.

I don't even see his half throttle where I pass him as out of the ordinary he was hitting apex with me in the racing line with a bumper in front. Tapping the brake at entry was fast was done to make the corner as I did it too, and I'm not Ai (as far as I'm aware), he was just driving the track. Quite well too as we had a nice lil side by side run after the first corner. The let off point is where I finally pass him, but I think the let off is not obsurd or Ai acting crazy, its him doing what he should in the situation.

I do go out of my way to not use Ai to get through corners, I often check my sides to make sure I got room or I'm clear to go wide if I have to. I still push hard.

 

[JTB10000]

The A.I. is pretty fast on certain tracks when they have cars with Racing tires in Arcade Mode. They seem to be fastest on Tokyo R246 (especially), Silverstone, Spa, and Bathurst. Everywhere else they are pretty bad.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

Took some more pics and added it to the string

The 2 of us hit the brake for the corner at the same time and keep position.

Him





Me, I was pulling on him and had a few mph on him but we are side by side all the way.




Both back on quick and still in same position. I think he even braked a bit later than I did, but I was pulling on him from the last corner going faster than him trying to catch him.

My camerah takes nice pics of my TV, surprised they look so good.

The A.I. is pretty fast on certain tracks when they have cars with Racing tires in Arcade Mode. They seem to be fastest on Tokyo R246 (especially), Silverstone, Spa, and Bathurst. Everywhere else they are pretty bad.

Interesting, I do most testing at Silverstone and I've seen Ai not doing the slow down thing. What of the other tracks would you suggest I try to get the most slowing down behavior out of the Ai?

Very interesting thought it may be somewhat track specific, maybe race specific, possibly having much to do with how well the Ai is matched to the user.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

That post raises another question, or issue, that I've come across. According to that string of images, the AI in the BMW shaved off 7 mph at full throttle without braking.

This could also be caused by the rubber banding effect. If you watch the AI on a fast straight, sometimes they will lose or gain up to 12mph in the blink of an eye with no change in throttle input. Especially noticeable on the Like The Wind events.

Have a look at one of the fast roads cars in those events - Veyron, Huayra, Citreon GT etc. If you look at the Buggatti: If it is in front of the player, it will bounce off the limiter at between 254-257mph; if it is behind the player, it will bounce off the limiter between 264-267mph. It's not a gradual process either, the speed will change suddenly.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

This could also be caused by the rubber banding effect. If you watch the AI on a fast straight, sometimes they will lose or gain up to 12mph in the blink of an eye with no change in throttle input. Especially noticeable on the Like The Wind events.

Have a look at one of the fast roads cars in those events - Veyron, Huayra, Citreon GT etc. If you look at the Buggatti: If it is in front of the player, it will bounce off the limiter at between 254-257mph; if it is behind the player, it will bounce off the limiter between 264-267mph. It's not a gradual process either, the speed will change suddenly.

Can you back up any of that, like a car loosing 12mph WOT on flat straight. You make a lot of point but don't back any of it up and I've already shown what you say happens doesn't.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Can you back up any of that, like a car loosing 10mph WOT on flat straight. You make a lot of point but don't back any of it up and I've already shown what you say happens doesn't.

Sure thing, I have at least a dozen replays of this happening. I'll get round to uploading one.

As for your last point, I don't make things up, I tell my experiences and what I've seen, and I save these replays.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

Sure thing, I have at least a dozen replays of this happening. I'll get round to uploading one.

Thank you

That if true will be something I want to look into, RB is one of those things that I'd like to figure out how its applied in detail but 12mph lost flat out on a straight is obsurd and not kool even for RB.

As for your last point, I don't make things up, I tell my experiences and what I've seen, and I save these replays.

You said the AI slow down whenever I come around, they don't. You said they always behave a certain way, I show them not doing what you said at all. So I won't say you didn't observe that behavior but something about what happened there you didn't make the connection to and so your post are wrong.

 

[jtv90069]

@GT6OuTLaW Put the front bumper of your car by the rear quarter panel on the outside of an AI driver at most hairpins and they will slow to crawl and you can cruise around them easily. On the odd occasions where they haven't slowed I've been pushed off track on the exit of the corner.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Thank you

That if true will be something I want to look into, RB is one of those things that I'd like to figure out how its applied in detail but 12mph lost flat out on a straight is obsurd and not kool even for RB.

Pardon my ignorance, but what does your RB abbreviation stand for? I automatically think of RedBull

Here's a little video to show what I've been talking about. Notice that at no point do I allow the AI to have any of my draft, they are affecting their speed all on their own depending on my position and speed. They also back off when going by me even though I am 3 lanes over to the side.

Edit: Also the difference in top speed is as much as 22mph

 

[super_gt]

@GT6OuTLaW On the odd occasions where they haven't slowed I've been pushed off track on the exit of the corner.

This happens to me very often when I overtaking them from the outside.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

This happens to me very often when I overtaking them from the outside.

Interesting, put my vehicle on the outside to trigger the slow down.

RB = Rubber Band

 

[Morgoth_666]

The slowdown effect occurs on either side, it's just easier(and safer) to do it on the outside. It happens at the moment you pull alongside or just before, not at any random time while already side-by-side. They are actually reasonably competent at driving side-by-side, it's just difficult to get into those situations because anytime you start to pull alongside while they are turning they slow down and let you through. When you are well alongside, they generally maintain their pace until they either think you are in the way of where they want to go or you fall back just behind their rear bumper briefly and then pull alongside again.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

The slowdown effect occurs on either side, it's just easier(and safer) to do it on the outside. It happens at the moment you pull alongside or just before, not at any random time while already side-by-side. They are actually reasonably competent at driving side-by-side, it's just difficult to get into those situations because anytime you start to pull alongside while they are turning they slow down and let you through. When you are well alongside, they generally maintain their pace until they either think you are in the way of where they want to go or you fall back just behind their rear bumper briefly and then pull alongside again.

How come clearly its not happening? I've show it not happening at all, how much closer side by side do I need to get to trigger it? I go through 2 corners with that BMW, he never let off to let me by... So I understand your opinion but it is not supported by the evidence.

Its obviously not exclusive to me simply being close to or near the Ai, there must be more to the conditions that trigger it.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

How come clearly its not happening? I've show it not happening at all

I see it all the time, especially on corner exits. Just because you haven't noticed it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, clearly it does if so many people are reporting the same issue. The video I just posted shows the AI letting off an a 100% full throttle course when they are becoming side-by-side with my car despite me being what must be 15-20 meters away and not even close to interfering with their race or racing lines.

I'm going to have to post another video aren't I? You won't believe anybody otherwise.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

I see it all the time, especially on corner exits. Just because you haven't noticed it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, clearly it does if so many people are reporting the same issue. The video I just posted shows the AI letting off an a 100% full throttle course when they are becoming side-by-side with my car despite me being what must be 15-20 meters away and not even close to interfering with their race or racing lines.

I'm going to have to post another video aren't I? You won't believe anybody otherwise.

I never said it doesn't happen, I question what triggers it, just because you don't make the connection with all the triggers doesn't mean there are none, or that more elements need to be in place for it to occur.. Going by how why and where you say it occurs I attempt to replicate the scenario but as I've shown it doesn't occur as you say it does. All the videos in the world don't change the fact it doesn't occur as you say it does. Nobody denies it happens lol

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I never said it doesn't happen, I question what triggers it, just because you don't make the connection with all the triggers doesn't mean there are none, or that more elements need to be in place for it to occur.. Going by how why and where you say it occurs I attempt to replicate the scenario but as I've shown it doesn't occur as you say it does. All the videos in the world don't change the fact it doesn't occur as you say it does. Nobody denies it happens lol

You said above on this very page that what I say happens, doesn't happen. I've said what the AI will do even on SSRX and then posted proof, and you still say it doesn't happen.

If I post another video that shows exactly what I and others have been saying, how can you possibly still continue denying that it doesn't occur as we all say it does? You have undeniable evidence available with other people confirming the problem, and you are still dismissing it. Like I said, just because you may not be experiencing it, doesn not mean everyone has the same experience as you, that's been made pretty clear on this forum.

You need to post a video because it can not be misrepresented like photos can be, you can cherry pick what you want to show with pictures, a video will show the entire process.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

Doesn't happen AS YOU SAY IT DOES, I don't deny it happens, never did. Im saying the perameters you say trigger it, do not. Like I've been saying all along lmfao my goal is to understand exactly what triggers it. No duh it occurs, but it occurring and WHY it occurs are NOT the same thing......

What I've already done is show it NOT happening where and when you say it should. So you are correct, it happens, but I think you don't know all the factors involved in triggering it.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

You should re-read my post. I did not say you out right dismiss it happening, but that you dismiss our explainations as to why it happens and even the proof that has been posted backing up what I and others have said. Tomorrow, I will post another video regarding the AI's behaviour around corners and when they slow down - you will see that it happens how we've been describing it. You cannot possibly dismiss our claims any further after that.

Why does it matter how and when the AI do it anyway? The thread topic is about whether it actually occurs and whether it is realistic or not. Yes it does occur and yes it is unrealistic.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

All the videos in the world won't make a difference as I do not deny it happens. I'm saying where, when and why you say it occurs is wrong, and you've not shown anything to the contrary and please understand a video of it occurring doesn't tell the story of WHY it happens, I've already shown your reasoning to be wrong.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

At the end of the day, you're always right, I'm always wrong no matter the evidence I'm willing to provide. Pure factual video footage of various scenarios is just not good enough but your pictures of one corner are, got it.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

At the end of the day, you're always right, I'm always wrong no matter the evidence I'm willing to provide. Pure factual video footage of various scenarios is just not good enough but your pictures of one corner are, got it.

Are we not allowed to dissagree?

You've yet to prove your reasons as to the why, proving it happens is pointless when nobody denies it does.....

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Nope, you're always right. That's why you say myself and others are wrong every single time, regardless of the evidence. I'm not going to bother with that video anymore, I was going to show a situation of different races, different cars, different approaches and so on, but you keep saying that is not valid evidence as to why things are happening. I don't see how, since you can see it happening in plain sight.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

Nope, you're always right. That's why you say myself and others are wrong every single time, regardless of the evidence.

Its you then that has the problem, not me. You can believe what you like but my opinion is my own to make.

If you are incapable of accepting somebody doesn't share your opinion or is not swayed by the scribbles of who to him is just some dude online, its your problem

IMO your ignoring the proof that shows your wrong. No video can show exactly the why, all we can do is put the car in the situation you say triggers it, & if its triggered your right, but in this case as it was not triggered, so you are wrong.