Is GT7's overall understeering tendency just "wrong"?

[Scaff]

I must confess I have never been driving a race car. My apologies for not knowing what techniques are being applied there.

No problem at all, just be wary of making statements of fact when you're not aware of the actual circumtances.

I had been under the impression that touring cars where basically heavily pimped / tuned road cars. At least most of them look like that.

The vast majority are not, and haven't been for decades, almost all will have sequential gearboxes fitted, making left-foot braking and trail braking the norm.

So I thought the mechanisms would also be basically the same as in road cars.

Even where they are (i.e. still have an h-pattern), both trail braking and left-foot braking have a place and are extensively used.

I have not been talking about F1 / super formula and that sort of racing categories - these are not focus in GT7. I knew that those cars work differently.

Pretty much any racing series will see drivers making regualr use of left-foot and trail braking.

Also, the majority of cars in GT7 are road cars, not race cars, agreed? So, it would be obvious in my opinion to focus on road cars when it comes to physics and driving techniques. Sure, you CAN use left foot braking on a road car - but would you?

Yep - at times I do, particularly when I've driven road cars on track.

I do not know the rules in your country, but where I live it's prohibited under penalty. Everybody is tought to use right foot exclusively for both throttling and braking. LEFT FOOT NEVER EVER TOUCHES THE BRAKES is the motto - regardless of whether you run with manual or automatic transmission.

It's not illegal in the UK, here's (an old) video of Chris Harris explaining why it can be used in a road car. Keep in mind that it's also not exactly a basic skill, but rather one that is more suited to drivers who are already competent in driving.

Also, everybody's just upset about me not knowing how race cars work

I'm not upset about you not knowing, just needed to correct inaccurate claims.

but nobody's commenting on my "real" points !?? :

GT7 does have cars set-up to understeer on base set-ups, which I would agree with totally, as Kaz himself has already explained. What they should do is look at what other titles do to manage this, which is provide race cars with three base set-ups to pick from, Oversteer, Neutral, and understeer.

Even still today, the physics simulation in Gran Turismo is the cutting edge in driving simulation.

 

[CMB350]

Sure, you CAN use left foot braking on a road car - but would you?

I know Scaff and other have covered it already, but I left foot brake in my tracked road car. I’ll do it in slower corners after I’m finished downshifting and already gone back to the throttle with my right foot. It’s just another driving technique to have and be aware of.

I do not know the rules in your country, but where I live it's prohibited under penalty. Everybody is tought to use right foot exclusively for both throttling and braking. LEFT FOOT NEVER EVER TOUCHES THE BRAKES is the motto - regardless of whether you run with manual or automatic transmission

I used to left foot brake in my first car when I was 16. It was just more comfortable for me. I right foot brake now, but could still do left foot if I needed to for some reason.

 

[Meltac]

I don't hate the latest change but stock cars generally still understeer. As Kaz also says, experienced drivers can adjust the setup to remove the understeer, which is fine but changing setting for every car is pretty time consuming.

Thanks! At least someone confirmes !!!

GT7 does have cars set-up to understeer on base set-ups, which I would agree with totally, as Kaz himself has already explained. What they should do is look at what other titles do to manage this, which is provide race cars with three base set-ups to pick from, Oversteer, Neutral, and understeer.

Thanks and yeah this is basically what I meant in the first place. There might be good reasons for the behaviour that I described as "understeering", both in real life and in the game. But as GT7 is basically still a game, PD could IMHO do better at this point.


Couple of years ago I've had a driving safety training. I went there with my R32 (VW, not Nissan), my boss who payed the training came with his AMG SL55, and his wife had a Volvo V50. All three vehicles where 4WD. We drove on a circuit consisting of dry and wet tarmac and some sections with special surface emulating snow and ice. On emulated ice, all cars heavily understeered already with slow speeds. On snow we had both under- and oversteering, depending on speed, steering angle and braking activity. But when braking and abruptly steering on wet tarmac (for circling around obstacles), both the R32 and the SL55 oversteered, whereas only the V50 understeered. One of the trainers was a former race car mechanician and amateur racing pilot, and he said that's normal behaviour for those cars. Just saying...

 

[Tommy_D]

What they should do is look at what other titles do to manage this, which is provide race cars with three base set-ups to pick from, Oversteer, Neutral, and understeer.

Yeah, I don't think it should be so "pre-programmed" like this. I get what you are saying, but I feel like a HUGE miss by all the sim racing titles is that when a racing driver is in a race car with a pit crew and team, etc. the driver is not the one doing the manual wrenching on the car to get it set up. The driver is working with the team, they are reviewing data from the sensors and working together to get the cars set up to feel the way the driver wants.

What I would love is if the game, or your pit team, asked you after doing some test laps how the car felt. You could have options to select based on the questions being asked and the suspension/aero/traction control/etc settings all get adjusted automatically based on your responses. You go out again and drive. The same questions, or slightly altered questions come up and based on your answers some more fine tuning to the car gets automatically done. A couple sessions like this and you could have the car dialed in for your race. Could you have the ability to manually adjust things yourself? Absolutely! I actually think this feature should not be part of the road car events as you generally would not have a team/pit crew for this type of race in real life.

All these racing titles do a piss poor job of explaining what the different suspension/aero/differential/etc adjustments actually do that most people end up adjusting things arbitrarily in hopes that it makes the car better. How many people do you see on this forum talk about using a "praiano tune" on their car? It's because they have no idea how to set up their car and the game does nothing to teach anyone how to do it properly.

 

[Scaff]

What I would love is if the game, or your pit team, asked you after doing some test laps how the car felt. You could have options to select based on the questions being asked and the suspension/aero/traction control/etc settings all get adjusted automatically based on your responses.

This is exactly what Project Cars 2 did (as well as giving three base set-ups for those who wanted a starting point), and I agree it should be far more common in titles.

 

[Meltac]

This is exactly what Project Cars 2 did (as well as giving three base set-ups for those who wanted a starting point), and I agree it should be far more common in titles.

Just out of curiosity: Since you're obviously still, or again, playing GT7 - isn't PC2 that good, after all? Or why did switch back?

 

[Pigems]

Many thanks guys for your posts. It's an interesting discussion, and I appreciate all the recommendations.
Let me comment on a couple of your quotes:


Thank you for being polite and not calling me an unskilled ignoramus (or even worse)

But I don't "abuse" anything. The tuning setups are part of the physics, as they directly affect the car's driving behavior. You can't say gt7's physics model is half-way realistic but changing some car settings is abuse.

Ok you have much more driving experience in this game than me, so I would like to believe me. But then please tell me, why in almost every movie with car racing / persuit scenes they drift / slide through corners when going fast, thus oversteer. If understeering was "standard" they all should just crash into the next building instead of cornering. Just movie special FX?

I get what you mean. However, in real life there's no "overlap" between brake and throttle. You use the same foot (right one, normally) for throttling and braking, and that's for a reason. Only in some go-carts you use the left foot for braking.

I only don't understand why most of you wheel-pedal-people always do it the "wrong" way, braking with the left foot. It's just not the way you do it in a real car. That's also why I assigned the brake to R1 instead of L2 - I wan't to use the same finger for throttling and braking. Everything else is just the wrong wy in my opinion.

R2 = throttle, R1 = brake. These two are not on/off but provide gradual input, but of course it's much more difficult to control partial input than with pedals. Especially R1 feels like on/off.


I'm using the braking zone indicators as an assist (those fat red horizontal stripes). They usually start very early and stop a little before the apex. I even sometimes use auto-drive braking which respects those indicators. That way I almost never release the brake very late, and I start the full turn only after releasing the brakes, and I throttle gradually. I've also been practicing trail braking for a while. So I honestly don't think I'm doing anything completely wrong. Not perfect, most probably. But not fully wrong. And still I feel that most cars tend to understeer, at least with stock settings.

And for all those saying that the physics are realistic and there's no amplified understeering in the game: Have you every driven the Jaguar VGT SV? In that car, steering as almost impossible at all unless you're very, very slow. I could push the stick full left or right, and almost nothing happens (and I'm not braking at all). Now tell me that this is real behaviour!

Plain and simple, we brake with our left foot because it is both faster and gives you much more control of the car. Point blank, end of discussion really, it’s just better. And outside of cars that have a clutch, I’m pretty sure race car drivers use both feet, seeing as speed it the main point of racing.

Normal road driving yea, you use only one foot, but racing isn’t normal road driving.

 

[newmedia_dev]

Just out of curiosity: Since you're obviously still, or again, playing GT7 - isn't PC2 that good, after all? Or why did switch back?

I think you are a time sink.

We can debate physics, we can debate techniques and we can debate tuning.

But you are not taking on board that you may actually have to work on the way you drive.

You talk about tuning out the understeer yet don't really grasp why it's happening in the first place.

You spout utter nonsense, it is not illegal anywhere in the world to use advanced driving techniques. What you were told is from a driving instructor and honestly it makes me genuinely question your driving experience. With this in mind, I feel like it's your lack of actual driving experience that is what is fuelling this. Otherwise it's starting to feel like trolling.

 

[Meltac]

I think you are a time sink.

We can debate physics, we can debate techniques and we can debate tuning.

But you are not taking on board that you may actually have to work on the way you drive.

You talk about tuning out the understeer yet don't really grasp why it's happening in the first place.

You spout utter nonsense, it is not illegal anywhere in the world to use advanced driving techniques. What you were told is from a driving instructor and honestly it makes me genuinely question your driving experience. With this in mind, I feel like it's your lack of actual driving experience that is what is fuelling this. Otherwise it's starting to feel like trolling.

Why so offended? What you quoted from me in your latest post was a simple question. Which you didn't even answer. As I said, it was just out of curiosity, mainly because I've heard a couple of times that PC2 is an alternative to GT7 with many similarity but also certain major differences. Nothing that should offend you. One is permitted to ask questions in a forum like this one, or not?

I already said before that my driving style / experience is most probably not perfect. There is much room for improvement, yes. But if you say that I "spout utter nonsense", then you are the one that starts offending, not me. Sorry.

I haven't said that it was "not illegal anywhere in the world to use advanced driving techniques" or anything even close to that. I also haven't questioned the reasons for understeering happening. And I have said that this driving instructor was a former race car mechanician and amateur racer, so he probably knew more on the topic than many guys in this thread (and me, of course).

You're just turning my words against me here. I don't think that's fair, or respectful, or even constructive.

That's it for me here. Consider me gone. Thanks again to everybody who contributed constructively to the topic. Bye.

 

[newmedia_dev]

live it's prohibited under penalty. Everybody is tought to use right foot exclusively for both throttling and braking. LEFT FOOT NEVER EVER TOUCHES THE BRAKES is the motto - regardless of whether you run with manual or automatic transmission.

What does the word prohibited mean in your country?

yes. But if you say that I "spout utter nonsense", then you are the one that starts offending, not me. Sorry.

You can't be offended at what you said and it's repeated and questioned back to you.

I don't think it's fair and constructive to basically ignore anything that has been posted and not stop once to ask "have you guys got any tips on how I can improve the way I play the game, here is a video of how I drive currently"

You have lots of words and debate but don't want to help yourself.

 

[snc]

Launch leant very much into oversteer territory. People overwhelmingly didn't like it, and so the real Understeer Simulator was born.

It is, for better or for worse (worse I reckon) - easier to just slow down more so you dont drive into a wall, a very obvious thing you can see happening, than it is to countersteer to various degrees to save a spin.

Yeah because day 1 physics was realistic ;d Cars would be banned in Europe if reals cars behave that way ;d

 

[Def-Infinity]

[...]
All these racing titles do a piss poor job of explaining what the different suspension/aero/differential/etc adjustments actually do that most people end up adjusting things arbitrarily in hopes that it makes the car better. How many people do you see on this forum talk about using a "praiano tune" on their car? It's because they have no idea how to set up their car and the game does nothing to teach anyone how to do it properly.

I don't think they really need to. There's plenty of online resources to help teach players what each component changes as well as a few heuristics to follow, independent of how they appear in game. The only things I think might be somewhat confusing for this GTS/GT7 are...

• Natural Frequency (NF)
• Damping Ratio (DR)

...since spring forces are affected by car mass under NF, and damping force is affected by NF when using DRs are used. These units drastically simplify the tuning process if you understand them, but they don't seem to be common in other simracing titles.

Because we don't have access to I-M-O tire temps from the telemetry, setting up camber is mostly guess & check, but usually you could pop those values and tire pressures into a calculator after a few laps to find the optimal settings.

You can also do changes by hand using tuning flowcharts while having minimal actual technical knowledge.

Spoiler: Flowchart Example

Spoiler: Much longer point about tuning

Trying to a use a data-centric approach (Kruskal-Wallis), it took nearly 130 laps across two setups before I could claim any significant statistical difference on a fairly simple spring (or any setup) change. At Blue Moon - B of all places! There's simply too much noise from driver error.

To make matters worse, you need to make practical considerations for an actual race. Even with a 5% risk of an incident per lap in a 20 lap race, costing say 10 seconds, you would need your new setup to be guaranteed 0.5s per lap faster to justify using it. Otherwise, you are hoping to beat the odds. There are other risks as well, like driving wide, recovering from a slide, missing an apex, etc that will add up and sometimes need to be accounted for in a tune since practice time before any race is limited.

But optimizing at a specific PP is a different beast entirely. Save time and go to a dedicated tuner for ideas.

 

[Tommy_D]

I don't think they really need to. There's plenty of online resources to help teach players what each component changes as well as a few heuristics to follow, independent of how they appear in game. The only things I think might be somewhat confusing for this GTS/GT7 are...

• Natural Frequency (NF)
• Damping Ratio (DR)

...since spring forces are affected by car mass under NF, and damping force is affected by NF when using DRs are used. These units drastically simplify the tuning process if you understand them, but they don't seem to be common in other simracing titles.

Because we don't have access to I-M-O tire temps from the telemetry, setting up camber is mostly guess & check, but usually you could pop those values and tire pressures into a calculator after a few laps to find the optimal settings.

You can also do changes by hand using tuning flowcharts while having minimal actual technical knowledge.

Spoiler: Flowchart Example

Spoiler: Much longer point about tuning

Trying to a use a data-centric approach (Kruskal-Wallis), it took nearly 130 laps across two setups before I could claim any significant statistical difference on a fairly simple spring (or any setup) change. At Blue Moon - B of all places! There's simply too much noise from driver error.

To make matters worse, you need to make practical considerations for an actual race. Even with a 5% risk of an incident per lap in a 20 lap race, costing say 10 seconds, you would need your new setup to be guaranteed 0.5s per lap faster to justify using it. Otherwise, you are hoping to beat the odds. There are other risks as well, like driving wide, recovering from a slide, missing an apex, etc that will add up and sometimes need to be accounted for in a tune since practice time before any race is limited.

But optimizing at a specific PP is a different beast entirely. Save time and go to a dedicated tuner for ideas.

Ugg, no. All of that sounds awful.

This is why no one wants to learn how to tune their cars. It’s so god damn complicated and watching hours of people’s You Tube videos doesn’t really help all that much when you take in to account the different track simulations, tire compounds, aero changes, F1 car vs Gr.3/Gr.4 car vs road car, etc.

The game should be teaching you how to make these adjustments essentially in real time. Well… right after you went and tested the car. This way everything is fresh in your mind. You can tackle problems piece by piece and dial in your car while still enjoying the experience of playing the game.

I can’t go test a car, learn that it has a twitchy rear end yet also understeers through fast turns, gets launched off of sausage curbs and has poor turn in response then be expected to search through posts here, reddit and YouTube and then go back and try to dial that stuff out. By the time I’ve spent the 45 minutes to an hour trying to find answers to my suspension issues, I have completely lost interest in playing the game. This kind of training should be in the game. It should be part of the game because setting up a car to go out on a track is part of racing.

It feels like these games just say, “Here’s a bunch of of cars and a bunch of tracks. You can tune your car how ever you want. Have fun!”

Maybe this is what PD should do as part of a career mode in GT8. Actually teach you how to drive, how to tune and set up a car for a race. I know that is a crazy request but maybe the game could be more than buying cars and racing them around tracks.

 

[Meythia]

Maybe this is what PD should do as part of a career mode in GT8. Actually teach you how to drive, how to tune and set up a car for a race. I know that is a crazy request but maybe the game could be more than buying cars and racing them around tracks.

The only problem to this is PD themselves with the almost constant changes to the games physics engine.
A once tuned car suddenly behaving strange, out getting out of PP range, tuning now within different parameters although everything is the same on the surface.

 

[Scaff]

Just out of curiosity: Since you're obviously still, or again, playing GT7 - isn't PC2 that good, after all? Or why did switch back?

Well, that's a strawman logical fallacy if I've ever seen one.

Let's give this a good going over shall we.

1. It's perfectly possible to play more than one title
2. I also play 'Super Wodden GP II' (an arcade title) that doesn't then mean other titles 'aren't that good'
3. GT7 occupies less than 5% of my gaming time, and most of that is sat with a beer and a controller
4. Despite having a few issues itself (as every title does), PC2 (on PC) still beats out GT7 in terms of physics, career mode, car set-up, and weather cycles.

 

[101Cyberdyne]

Of course, but every time you tapped the throttle it was full throttle, then no throttle, then full, then none. It’s nothing like having an actual pedal setup.

I actually pulled out my old PS1 and popped in GT 1 and 2 to try the game again. Holy crap is it terrible. The controls are so delayed. I don’t know how I golded all the license tests (excluding the damn Apricot Hill test with the NSX).

Out of interest did you hook your old PS1 up to a older style CRT or a new(ish) flat screen TV?

I still regularly play GT1, GT2, GT3 and GT4 on rotation. I still use the original hardware, original controllers and original discs. I have the Playstation and Playstation 2 hooked up to a 28" CRT that is still in great shape and I use Retro Gaming Cables RGB cables.

There is almost zero latency using a CRT.

The older games are still a joy to play. GT1 and GT2 are both great using the original PS1 controller that only had a d-pad and also the first PS1 controller that used analogue sticks. GT1 through GT4 all play amazingly well using NAMCO's crazy looking but incredibly effective NeGcon controller as well.

Problems occur when hooking these consoles up to newer TV's because unless using an expensive Retrotink device or an Open Source Scan Converter (OSSC) your TV will have to deinterlace the interlaced signal. This is what produces the lag. It makes the games very unplayable and not much fun.

But with the right kit - these games still hold up extremely well.

 

[hawkeyez]

Imagine driving for two, three, even four hours in a real race, trying to be as fast as possible, in a car that pushes slightly wide if you get a corner entry a bit wrong. Boring, perhaps. Then imagine doing the same in a twitchy mess that wants to spin out every time the other one understeers a bit and you won't make halfway through the stint because you're either in a wall or beached in a sandtrap somewhere after putting in a couple of degrees too much or too little opposite lock to catch it.

While oversteer may feel nice and entertaining, in real life the idea is to being the car home in one piece and be consistent while doing it. A slightly understeery setup is far better for that purpose than an oversteering one. When was the last time you saw a modern GT class race car routinely sliding into corners or out of them? I've watched top tier GT3 racing for years and it just doesn't happen, anywhere, ever.

I’m still waiting for proper handling historic trans am series, they slid every corner, all four tires a lot of times.

Anyway I find when things get understeering, I just slow down and try to drive out of the corner instead, which seems what this recent update prefers. My G Pro wheel feels better and much stronger finally, the Daytona Cobra isn’t feather light steering anymore…

As for excess understeer, I believe it’s there and I’ve noticed driving out of the corner I’m having trouble finding how much I can push it, it’s more than I’m used of now. This game always punishes you for getting on the gas too much on exit suddenly sending you nose first into the wall. As soon as those tires break loose you’re done kind of thing.

Somebody mentioned ACC feeling more accurate, I have to say the FFB is much better in that game even though I don’t like it. GT7 is more fun, I just wish the cars drove more realistically and the FFB was more informative.

Waiting for AC2 and Project Motorsports…

 

[Tommy_D]

Out of interest did you hook your old PS1 up to a older style CRT or a new(ish) flat screen TV?

I still regularly play GT1, GT2, GT3 and GT4 on rotation. I still use the original hardware, original controllers and original discs. I have the Playstation and Playstation 2 hooked up to a 28" CRT that is still in great shape and I use Retro Gaming Cables RGB cables.

There is almost zero latency using a CRT.

The older games are still a joy to play. GT1 and GT2 are both great using the original PS1 controller that only had a d-pad and also the first PS1 controller that used analogue sticks. GT1 through GT4 all play amazingly well using NAMCO's crazy looking but incredibly effective NeGcon controller as well.

Problems occur when hooking these consoles up to newer TV's because unless using an expensive Retrotink device or an Open Source Scan Converter (OSSC) your TV will have to deinterlace the interlaced signal. This is what produces the lag. It makes the games very unplayable and not much fun.

But with the right kit - these games still hold up extremely well.

View attachment 1428733

I’m using a 4k tv with an adapter to my original PS1. This likely is the issue, but back when I had an old CRT tv it was the same thing. Constantly trying to make little corrections when driving down the straight so I wasn’t veering off to one side. Little tap left… Now In headed toward the left side of the track. Little tap right… toward the right side now.

Being able to play with a wheel and pedal setup has made all that stupid ping pong driving style go away. I could never get used to using the analogue thumb controls. That may date all the way back to playing original Nintendo. D-pad and a couple buttons. That’s just how I learned how to play video games.

 

[Tommy_D]

The only problem to this is PD themselves with the almost constant changes to the games physics engine.
A once tuned car suddenly behaving strange, out getting out of PP range, tuning now within different parameters although everything is the same on the surface.

Well, yes, this is just a general problem with PD and the game itself. There was nothing wrong with the physics post v1.31 but they had to change it again for reasons only PD could explain. I think it was because they thought it would make the game feel fresh again. Like you, I quit playing for the second half of 2024. They completely screwed up the game and forced all the players to retune their cars and re-learn new physics all for the sake of… feeling fresh????

Anyway, at least if the game worked with you and taught you how to setup your car, most players would be able to figure out how to tune for the new physics that they implement at random.

Edit…. Ugg I didn’t realize these 2 quotes were on the same thread. If the mods want to make it one post go ahead.

 

[sonnyboychris]

The only problem to this is PD themselves with the almost constant changes to the games physics engine.
A once tuned car suddenly behaving strange, out getting out of PP range, tuning now within different parameters although everything is the same on the surface.

I can only speak for myself but I want a game that's constantly being refined and improved upon.

I think the problem with PD is that they're too often taking 3 steps back and then 1 step forward with these updates. As I've stated before (not saying I'm correct), I think it's partly due to the fact that they're attempting to serve two masters (controller/wheeled users).

The latest update has been great imho (fanatec dd pro user) but I'm worried that PD will ruin it 6 months time, as they've done in the past lol.

They completely screwed up the game and forced all the players to retune their cars and re-learn new physics all for the sake of… feeling fresh????

I don't think they're trying to make the game feel fresh. They're trying to fix legitimate issues and improve different things but in an admittedly inefficient (imo) way.

 

[Tommy_D]

I can only speak for myself but I want a game that's constantly being refined and improved upon.

I think the problem with PD is that they're too often taking 3 steps back and then 1 step forward with these updates. As I've stated before (not saying I'm correct), I think it's partly due to the fact that they're attempting to serve two masters (controller/wheeled users).

If they need to make improvements for the controller users, then they should make adjustments to the sensitivity/inputs of the controller users but leave the wheel/pedal users alone. They can independently adjust these two different styles of driving as mentioned in their update notes. What is stupid is when they decide to “change the tire modeling” and in doing so completely screw up how every car in the game handles. Oh, and let’s change the PP ratings as well so the user base has to retune, or in some cases buy a completely fresh car and re-tune it because they can’t remove certain modifications that keep them above the PP threshold.

This is the BS that I believe PD puts in as a means of trying to keep the game feeling “fresh”. There was no need to change the tire modeling last year. There was nothing wrong with the previous tire modeling. They just got a new sponsorship with Michelin and thought, “Oh wouldn’t it be fun to change the physics to go along with this new sponsorship news???”

No, PD. It was not fun.

 

[NevilleNobody]

Tried to read a lot of the responses and feel people are characterizing oversteer as spinning out under power. Oversteer can also happen carrying too much speed or too sudden with turn in and the back swings around or lift oversteer on entry.

I walked away from the game in May 2023, there was a physics update just before that which introduce severe understeer and also made it easier to light up the rear tyres, it was awful. I rejoined December 2024 and this latest update adds even MORE understeer but has gone some ways to making the rear more predictable under power. What's missing is grip on anything other than RS tyres, RH's are just awful, the nose just doesn't want to tuck in, you need to release the brake very early and roll through corners until the nose is pointing the right way to what feels like an unreasonable level on RH's in GR3 and 4 for example.

I do think it is important for accessibility that the game does not punish getting on the throttle a touch too hard in a way that sucks the enjoyment out of the game. I notice a lot of criticism that the rear is too stable is coming from guys who are often in the top 100 or so in the world on time trials, i'm sorry guys but you likely need to be looking at iRacing or ACC for the next level of driving engagement.

The rear end feels about right at the moment, guys like me still need TC1 in qualifying and TC2 in race and we are punished for it, I lose 3 to 4 tenths exiting the last corner at Fuji ever damn time as my TC light flickers, but I hate walking on egg shells. What the cars need is a touch more front end grip.

 

[hawkeyez]

Tried to read a lot of the responses and feel people are characterizing oversteer as spinning out under power. Oversteer can also happen carrying too much speed or too sudden with turn in and the back swings around or lift oversteer on entry.

I walked away from the game in May 2023, there was a physics update just before that which introduce severe understeer and also made it easier to light up the rear tyres, it was awful. I rejoined December 2024 and this latest update adds even MORE understeer but has gone some ways to making the rear more predictable under power. What's missing is grip on anything other than RS tyres, RH's are just awful, the nose just doesn't want to tuck in, you need to release the brake very early and roll through corners until the nose is pointing the right way to what feels like an unreasonable level on RH's in GR3 and 4 for example.

I do think it is important for accessibility that the game does not punish getting on the throttle a touch too hard in a way that sucks the enjoyment out of the game. I notice a lot of criticism that the rear is too stable is coming from guys who are often in the top 100 or so in the world on time trials, i'm sorry guys but you likely need to be looking at iRacing or ACC for the next level of driving engagement.

The rear end feels about right at the moment, guys like me still need TC1 in qualifying and TC2 in race and we are punished for it, I lose 3 to 4 tenths exiting the last corner at Fuji ever damn time as my TC light flickers, but I hate walking on egg shells. What the cars need is a touch more front end grip.

You definitely have to tune cars in GT7 to your liking. The Co ra has gobs of oversteer. Haha. I like it bone stock. It’s hairy. But yeah from day one I was driving way too hard and noticed my laps times were always faster when I braked early, got turning in sooner and accelerated out. Not as fun, I wonder if it’s the lack of sense of speed? I’ve heard people complain Gran Turismo doesn’t “look” fast which would result in everybody pushing it into the corner way too hard.

I haven’t driven Project Cars 2 in awhile since it doesn’t look too great on PS5 and my wheel isn’t officially supported but I remember that game feeling pretty good. When I did go back to it from GT7 I wasn’t as fast as I used to be because I was sliding a lot. But I noticed when I did slide, I didn’t lose as much ground on opponents as I would in GT7. And the slides and loss of traction were easier to save. GT7 is hilarious when somebody loses traction on acceleration, in the rear view mirror is just looks like the turn it straight into the wall and floor it, don’t let off! It’s always been a problem in Gran Turismo, it’s like you have traction until you just don’t and then you’re screwed. PC2 is closer to driving the cobra in GT7, you can’t mash the gas, only it’s more forgiving and less walking on egg shells like you say.

 

[Pigems]

It is very much the way you do it in a race car - for the obvious reason, you get the ability to control both throttle and brake.

The clutch doesn't matter as much whilst you're racing. You don't need immediate control over it.

Most race cars won't even have a clutch pedal and will have an automatic clutch, shifted by paddles on the back of the wheel. That's how pretty much any modern GT car is done. Here's a interior shot of the 296 GT3. No clutch pedal.

View attachment 1428425

No dead pedal either, meaning the driver is intended to keep his left foot on the brake at all times.

 

[super_gt]

I put downforce only on the front of almost every car to eliminate unnecessary understeer.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Ugg, no. All of that sounds awful.

Just a side note, if you turn on the braking markers, you would be surprised how quickly understeer goes away.

The game should be teaching you how to make these adjustments essentially in real time. Well… right after you went and tested the car. This way everything is fresh in your mind. You can tackle problems piece by piece and dial in your car while still enjoying the experience of playing the game.

It's a completely different aspect of the game, like the liveries. It's for a group of people that love it. It's not for everyone. I used to love it, but I'm happy to leave the base set up as long as the car behaves half way decent.

It feels like these games just say, “Here’s a bunch of of cars and a bunch of tracks. You can tune your car how ever you want. Have fun!”

That's exactly what they do, and it's worked for them for nearly 30 years, so I guess it's a winning formula

Maybe this is what PD should do as part of a career mode in GT8. Actually teach you how to drive, how to tune and set up a car for a race. I know that is a crazy request but maybe the game could be more than buying cars and racing them around tracks.

What's funny is that is how the game started and how MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY of use would like it to return to. For instance, Sunday cup should not be so easy when using the recommended car. It should be a challenge with the recommended car, and easy with tunes or a faster car.

I would LOVE LOVE LVOE to have a crack and setting up GT's career mode. I'd do it for cheap.