Is Sophy 2.0 no longer competitive?

  • Thread starter rlx
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Fuz_Belvedere
Was really hoping Sophy AI could be used in custom Races 🙁 (unless I'm missing something...)
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No we can't.

It's designed to specifically race certain tracks with very finite parameters.

Sadly it is what it is. But it's understandable, balancing AI is really really hard. Especially if you care in offline racing. It sucks but it is what it is. It's massively fun in an underpowered car. It's a bit meh if you just want to win because it doesn't care or have feelings.
 
newmedia_dev
No we can't.

It's designed to specifically race certain tracks with very finite parameters.

Sadly it is what it is. But it's understandable, balancing AI is really really hard. Especially if you care in offline racing. It sucks but it is what it is. It's massively fun in an underpowered car. It's a bit meh if you just want to win because it doesn't care or have feelings.
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It can't, yet. Sophy development is still early days and it's clear from PD comments that they don't want Sophy to just live in Quick Races forever.
 
newmedia_dev
It's more nuanced than that.

The AI realistically can out drive us all.

What I think they did was dial back the competitive part a bit.

Sophy always races in stock cars and mostly on the worse tyre compound because it's just better than us.

So in mid pack racing it feels like it's aware and trying. Once you break that mid pack it's just normal racing turned up.

It is what it is, which is a very fun competitor but it is not the AI that is going to overtake mankind.

It doesn't use tuned cars merely slows its pace as needed to make the game fun.

Edit:

It also races standard cars as that's what the model was learning from.

This is a genuine question, if you could race Sophy in the same car with no tuning do you think that would be more fun?
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For sure I challenged Sophy in GT3 without any tuning and using same tires as the grid used (Hard race) in a Sophy Pro level, definitely I had to fight much more than usual to reach P3. It is very defending every position even some time closing doors or faking to close a door. SOPHY doesn't hesitate to squeeze you more and more on the side of the road to force you to slow down to avoid going out. But it respects the etiquette. I've noticed that after one or two attempts, it resigns itself if you're still in a good position to overtake it.
Also, when attacking at SPA for example, it doesn't hesitate for a moment to throw itself into a small gap at the entrance to a hairpin bend to snatch your place and force you to slow down. At all times during these moments you have to keep your eyes on the rear-view mirrors and change your ideal line to fill the hole, otherwise Sophy will rush in and overtake you, forcing you to slow down. I think it's a really good move.
 
RacinLei
I raced sophy in a gr.3 bop hard tires and all was good. Maybe it isnt dialed in correct to tuning changes and maybe and thats just a guess it reacts to youre gearbox tuning if set the final gear to high.
Im not really into custom races or sophy races. I tested le mans on purpose with an overpowerd porsche gt3 rs and won by a mile. Even with a chiron in the grid.

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I tested Gr. 3 BoPed on racing hards on Red Bull Ring several times with Sophy, you just completely outspeed every car on the straights, no matter the car you are in.

Then when you have passed someone with realative ease and look in the rear mirror, they can somehow now match/outspeed you, especially on the straights. It is extremely obvious.
 
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I'm seeing many drivers beat Sophy at SPA in a Gr3 with RH with average laps ~2.22.2xx. Isn't that about the pace of a DR B/C level?

But in road cars, it is completely different. I tested a range of cars (low to high PP) and found that beating Sophy on Pro level with a stock setup/tires is very challenging. I chose Redbull Ring and ran 2 races with each car. All races were done in the 630/Dawn session. Below is my list with best finishes.

Gordini - P1
AE86 - P5
Abarth 500 - P4
Mini Coper S '05 - P4
Civic Type R '98 - P4
BRZ '18 - P2
190E Evo- P3
E30 M3 - P4
350Z '07 - P2
E46M3 - P2
A110 '17 - P2
NSX Type R '02 - P2
Radical SR3 - P3
911 GT3 '01 - P4
Alfa 8C - P3
E90 M3 - P2
Porsche 959 - P4
Ferrari GTO '84 - P3
Cayman GT4 - P2
Mazda Roadster Touring - P2
SLS AMG - P2
F430 - P2
LFA - P1

So I'm not sure what is going on with Sophy's calibration. It looks like in Gr3/4/.. form she is lacking pace. But the opposite is happening in road cars in my view. I'm certainly not the quickest, especially in road cars with CM tires. However, I was able to beat Sophy in a stock LFA on SH with a total time of 4.57.7xx and a faster lap of 1.38.342. My personal best was a P2 finish with 4.56.3xx, and Sophy ran a 4.53.2xx.

Overall, I'm finding the current calibration in road cars to be acceptable and do not want it nerfed in the future. I'm going to revisit those cars that finished in P2 and tinker with each setup to see if I can find a tenth here and there. If memory serves, the diff setup can be transformative...If all else fails, I will then consider a tire compound upgrade.

As for Sophy's race craft? Even though there are obvious rough patches, I think we are witnessing something truly special. If you need proof, I have replays of her defending, squeezing, rubbing, diving, bullying, faking, and passing with sublime cutbacks.
 
newmedia_dev
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Sophy may undoubtedly be a dunce under yellow flag conditions, but when you see how inputs are feathered, it is clear that the level of finesse that is emerging/evolving around the physics of the car is envious.

Save your replays and take a peek at Sophy's inputs...she never breaks 100% -- well, maybe just for a split moment. That is telling...about GT7 physics.
 
I’m liking Sophy. Had a lot of races against it. Some races I win depending on the car and tires. It’s a fun time and a welcomed upgrade. Can’t wait for Nurburgring and all the other tracks. Also a few rain events against Sophy would be nice. It’s amazing in virtual reality. All in all very good.
 
dabz343
Sophy may undoubtedly be a dunce under yellow flag conditions, but when you see how inputs are feathered, it is clear that the level of finesse that is emerging/evolving around the physics of the car is envious.

Save your replays and take a peek at Sophy's inputs...she never breaks 100% -- well, maybe just for a split moment. That is telling...about GT7 physics.
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Not sure how that is telling, probably simply doesn't use ABS so it manages that by itself.
 
br1x
I tested Gr. 3 BoPed on racing hards on Red Bull Ring several times with Sophy, you just completely outspeed every car on the straights, no matter the car you are in.

Then when you have passed someone with realative ease and look in the rear mirror, they can somehow now match/outspeed you, especially on the straights. It is extremely obvious.
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Thats wierd, i did the same race right with gr.3 now and i have not such behavior 🤔 Good battles normal straightline speed. I catch the last two sophy at the end of round 2 and both give me good battle. I got fastest lap 1.30. I did a fresh setup sheet and didnt touch it.

I tried also sf23 in spa and that race was all over the place. Grid was Mazda vgt bugatti vgt and so on and they outpaced me massivly. I kinda get the feeling it is not a sophy problem it is more a inballanced bop sytem that makes it possible.

Maybe when Sophy is open to custom race and we can dial in the lobby to one make or same groupe of cars it will be better.
 
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Had a race with Sophy, I went in the stock 4C so sports hard. P1 was in the 4C Gr.4 road car.

There was a new Camero in the race which was hilarious to watch as it steamed passed everything on the straights but so slow in the corners.

I finished P2 which makes sense considering the P1 car vs mine.

Fun race.
 
You want a challange?
Laguna Seca Gr.3 AMG, no setup, hard tires.
What a race, tock me 3 attemps to beat but holy that race is tuff. Maybe my car of choice is not the best for the track (nr.1 sophy in the Porsche) but it was the best race i had against Sophy 😍😍👍🏻
 
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RacinLei
You want a challange?
Laguna Seca Gr.3 AMG, no setup, hard tires.
What a race, tock me 3 attemps to beat but holy that race is tuff. Maybe my car of choice is not the best for the track (nr.1 sophy in the Porsche) but it was the best race i had against Sophy 😍😍👍🏻
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Yeah. Sophy is wild on Laguna Seca :D I love it.
I hope that we will get new "sophy" tracks monthly. I really hope to get Nordschleife with Sophy :)

And I understand that Sophy can't be added to Custom Race yet, because of how many different situations can occure not trained for sophy like pit-stops, rain itp. But atleast having option to change Quick Race lenght would be incredbile.
 
Disclaimer….

I’m not a fast driver by any standard. I can hold my own but competitively I’m not in the same league as the top 20% to 30% of drivers.

I’ve found Sophy good fun on the hard setting with stock cars. One I try a modified car I’m in front and about 7 to 10 seconds down the road by race end.

Stock cars however I have an easy time getting to the top 3 then once I’m there it’s really tricky sticking with them let alone beating it.

Take the stock S800 to Grand Valley and 1st place just stays ahead around 3 seconds in front due to higher top speed on straights and third place is about 3 seconds behind.

I really think the AI is good fun and as it’s the first real implementation I can’t wait to see where they take it down the line.
 
Have also seen some oddness, Sophy on Suzuka in Gr.3 cars was dawdling along the straights, whereas racing against road cars at Deep Forest, more powerful cars (C6 Corvette ZR1 vs my LFA) would happily pull past me.

Also there's STILL some stupid rubber banding, stopping at the start of a Suzuka Gr3 race, Sophy's fastest lap whilst I was 30 seconds behind the pack was a 2:17. Keeping up with the pack they're suddenly lapping 2:10s... Why must they insist on this stupid rubber banding, or at least let us turn it properly off!

Otherwise it's a lot of fun to race against with stock cars, very pleased with it, just frustrating PD always have to leave the odd weird decision in everything :D
 
My first experience with Sophy 2.0 on all 9 tracks, Pro lvl. Completely stock car and tires.

Grid with stock cars are quite unbalanced.
Though, if you are consistent you can always take the podium. I may give a go with Gr4/3 I expect better grid and balance.

While I fully understand the defensive line during braking phase of Sophy, there is no reason to defend (actually blocking you) during corner exit or waving in the streights also trying to block you always, but letting other Sophy pass by. You can see same behaviour on all of the track but it's very obvious on Le Mans.

My test was not to beat the Sophy but have some good racing experience and see how it will go. Considering it's the first release it's quite promising but a fine tune is needed in the future updates of Sophy, so be more competitive, and show more sportsmanship on the track, so races be even more exciting and challenging.

 
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An observation I just made: In Gr.3 the AI doesn't seem to be slowed down on the straights on Le Mans. On Spa and the Red Bull Ring, you can literally outrun every car on the straights in even the slowest of the Gr. 3 cars, like the Subaru BRZ GT300, even when you get a clearly much worse exit before the straight.

On Le Mans on the other Hand, the AI seems appropriately fast on the straights. Probably a conscious choice on how they get Sophy on a level that is beatable, as it would hurt racing on Le Mans a lot more than on other tracks when they are just that slow in a straight line.
 
morfei1
My first experience with Sophy 2.0 on all 9 tracks, Pro lvl. Completely stock car and tires.

Grid with stock cars are quite unbalanced.
Though, if you are consistent you can always take the podium. I may give a go with Gr4/3 I expect better grid and balance.

While I fully understand the defensive line during braking phase of Sophy, there is no reason to defend (actually blocking you) during corner exit or waving in the streights also trying to block you always, but letting other Sophy pass by. You can see same behaviour on all of the track but it's very obvious on Le Mans.

My test was not to beat the Sophy but have some good racing experience and see how it will go. Considering it's the first release it's quite promising but a fine tune is need in the future updates of Sophy, so be more competitive, and show more sportsmanship on the track, so races be even more exciting and challenging.

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Good Vid, but the reason I stayed away from the GT3 RS in my testing was because it consistently triggered a grid where nearly half were on SH and the other on SM. Try the LFA, competitors are always on SH so you get more of a level field.

Btw, isn't it weird how Sophy is slower/faster on some tracks? Like Redbull, she flies there.
 
invetedevo
I tested Sophy 2.0 under blue flag conditions against the Regular AI. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions from this test:

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If I had to guess — and I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not a developer nor am I an expert or even an amateur; I'm merely speaking on what I know from reading and seeing how things work to an extent — there's an issue with Sophy's pathing, more specifically I think the issue is a bit more rooted in the way Sophy is programmed.

It races about as close to what we would; it defends as close to how we would; takes corners, brakes, etc, etc. Combine that with it also needing to be capable of plotting cautionary/avoidance paths because of an unforeseen obstacle with other cars in its visual cone (not a technical term, at least I don't think it is :lol: ) and you can begin to understand why this isn't a finalized, "release candidate" version Sophy.

The reason the base AI appears better is because its look ahead appears to be tens of meters ahead. Its already slowed to a snail's pace and there's at least 15 car lengths between the Supra and the first AI driver. It navigates around at a snail's pace and then picks up speed again once the obstacle has been navigated. Again, compare that to Sophy who's doing the same things (give or take) with what appears to be a much narrower look ahead while maintaining race pace speeds.

I could be completely off by a factor of 10,000. Just a wild, semi-educated guess.
 
It's pretty fun with stock cars, but the pace is thrown out the window if you force Sophy around the outside, like it abandons the corner instead of fighting around the outside.

It also seems like there in no foresight in the driving and always being .01 second behind each car through the corner, great for a long string of corners, but before a long straight there is no momentum to be gained following so closely behind it's opponents.
 
tofuhero
It can't, yet. Sophy development is still early days and it's clear from PD comments that they don't want Sophy to just live in Quick Races forever.
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It's been over two years since it first beat elite players, how long does the early days excuse get run for?

They could've run a limited time event with a whole grid full of maxed out Sophy opponents with the option of dialling it back if it was possible, instead they are piggybacking Sophy on their rubber banded (slow) AI and chase the rabbit format.

To me it looks like this is their solution instead of training Sophy on every track and car combo, which is a very long way short of the mighty game changer they were spruiking.
 
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dabz343
Good Vid, but the reason I stayed away from the GT3 RS in my testing was because it consistently triggered a grid where nearly half were on SH and the other on SM. Try the LFA, competitors are always on SH so you get more of a level field.

Btw, isn't it weird how Sophy is slower/faster on some tracks? Like Redbull, she flies there.
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it's hard for me to drive anything different than the Porsche but probably I'll give it a go with different cars coz I enjoyed it very much and I was waiting for Sophy since I've heard about it. I may give a go with the Cayman GT4 street version which is on SH by default. I've noticed that half of the grid were on SM and the rest were on SH, when I was with the GT3 RS. I guess it will be the same for the old GT3 RS. Maybe the older GT3 07' will be different coz its default on SH as far as I remember. I saw some Bentlies and Ferraries in the grid that are rocket on the streights but quite slow in the corners.

Yeah, I know it's difficult to balance the Hyper Car grid, but any way I enjoyed the races very much. What i didn't like as I've mentioned was the desperate way of defending always at all the cost but not doing the same for it's "brothers" which ruined the good racing experience in some way.

I really looking forward for longer races with Sophy, where I'm also able to turn on fuel consumption / tyre wear and where we can choose mandatory tire type for the race.

Fingers crossed for the future of Sophy.
 
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