Is tyre degradation so high in GT5 thats its unrealistic? PD read!

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Please calm down. But what do you want from me? To declare that my opinion is invalid? You seem persistent to adamantly prove that the Kondo GT-R is a "bad" car. Can you not accept that I think the car is decent? The stats I have presented are facts: they are rough comparative time difference I have gathered through my own personal testing, for myself (and certain others). I'm not trying to mislead anyone. Rather to the contrary, I would like people to drive the car and formulate their own opinions of it, rather than accepting the popular consensus like sheep.

I can gladly accept your differing opinion; why can't you reciprocate?

Calm down? I am calm, you seem to be taking this debate on an emotional level. I'm not trying to prove what many would agree with me on. Just simply stating that most wouldn't see it your way and that they'd want you to substantiate the claim you've made because of how many people say the opposite of what you've said. Also they're not facts, they're hearsay, because you've not presented viable proof such as images or something that could be tested again. No one is saying your trying to mislead, once again simply saying, okay that's nice but show us more because many would still disagree with you. Also the sheep thing is bit daft for this. Anyways happy new year.

Oh and just for the sake of making sure this is on topic, I'm arguing this due to GT5 seemed to have a different tire formulation on certain cars.

post #300

 

[madac]

Ok, I have not read all of this, but there seems to be a comon thread that most ppl are missing. One that I was missing up until this last season of F1. Manufactures can make a tyre wear at what ever rate they want to. Just look at the Perillis that were used in the 2011 F1 season compared to the 2010 and previous seasons and there is a huge difference in tyre wear.
It sucks, I know but that's the best that I have been able to come up with to make any kind of sense out of the whole tyre wear issuse.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Ok, I have not read all of this, but there seems to be a comon thread that most ppl are missing. One that I was missing up until this last season of F1. Manufactures can make a tyre wear at what ever rate they want to. Just look at the Perillis that were used in the 2011 F1 season compared to the 2010 and previous seasons and there is a huge difference in tyre wear.
It sucks, I know but that's the best that I have been able to come up with to make any kind of sense out of the whole tyre wear issuse.

Pirelli weren't used last year, Bridgestones were so that's an obvious reason why wear rates are different. Also Pirelli is came back to F1 this season with testing in 2010 and still had much work to do to get a quality tire that didn't diminish too fast. Bridgestone had experience and that is why they didn't need to test tires like Pirelli all the time. This also explains wear rates, Bridgestone knows what tire compound works because it was around for several seasons, Pirelli has been back for only one season and is still trying to figure out what compound is best for what track.

GT is different, because they try to give the player one generic tire type and not model several different tire types from several different companies. However, some cars seem to have a tire handicap or other handicaps due to different tire setups in real life from their counterparts.

 

[madac]

I know, I was just tryin to simply put that in real life, not all tyres wear at the same rate.
and even at the end of the 2011 season the life of a set of tyres in f1 wasnt that long.....and who knows if perilli stick with it. The long runs like at the end of the 2010 season might return.

And even though the new season hasnt started yet, it is 2012 and the 2011 season is over and done with. So to me the 2011 season is last season....

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I know, I was just tryin to simply put that in real life, not all tyres wear at the same rate.
and even at the end of the 2011 season the life of a set of tyres in f1 wasnt that long.....and who knows if perilli stick with it. The long runs like at the end of the 2010 season might return.

And even though the new season hasnt started yet, it is 2012 and the 2011 season is over and done with. So to me the 2011 season is last season....

Well yeah that's true but they could be made to last longer no matter the manufacture. Pirelli did that on purpose for more strategic racing to make it exciting along with the DRS obviously and return of KERS. I think Pirelli may stick to this and keep the longevity of tires the same.

 

[Zuel]

I find it's hard to get the med and hard tires to warm up fast enough on some tracks.

 

[xSNAKEx]

Ok, I have not read all of this, but there seems to be a comon thread that most ppl are missing. One that I was missing up until this last season of F1. Manufactures can make a tyre wear at what ever rate they want to. Just look at the Perillis that were used in the 2011 F1 season compared to the 2010 and previous seasons and there is a huge difference in tyre wear.
It sucks, I know but that's the best that I have been able to come up with to make any kind of sense out of the whole tyre wear issuse.

I just wanted to chime in on this specific issue.

While I have no problem with restrictions of certain grades, or specific tyre choices being there as an option in the game for those who want it, I also strongly feel Gran turismo, especially as a video game should also at the every least also offer what the very best the real world tyres can offer.

Your point is true that a tyre can be made to last as little as you want, like Pirelli did in the 2011 season. I just think THIS is a shame, that PD would take this type of reasoning on-board and implement it into their game. i.e make a purposely fast wearing tyre for some other sake rather than offering the best that is available as well, as as been shown at various parts throughout this thread.

And I don't just want to simply see grippy tyres that last only a few laps and really lousy gripping tyres that last a long time. Just because a tyre wears fast does it does not automatically follow its grippier than a tyre that wears slowly and vice versa. I want choices of great gripping tyres with great durability as well because these do exist in real life.

Have a range of different tyres for different purposes, leagues etc. Some people may want to to force fast wearing tyres like in the 2011 season for excitement etc, while others may want to have the best technology can offer.

I think people just want the OPTION and we will all be happy.

 

[Jav]

And I don't just want to simply see grippy tyres that last only a few laps and really lousy gripping tyres that last a long time. Just because a tyre wears fast does it does not automatically follow its grippier than a tyre that wears slowly and vice versa. I want choices of great gripping tyres with great durability as well because these do exist in real life.

Have a range of different tyres for different purposes, leagues etc. Some people may want to to force fast wearing tyres like in the 2011 season for excitement etc, while others may want to have the best technology can offer.

I think people just want the OPTION and we will all be happy.

They need to make the tires last 3 times what they last now with the option of adjusting wear rate to please everyone.
*Make the hard tires hold the grip trough their entire life.
*Make the mediums hold grip trough 75% their life.
*Leave the wear:grip ratio of the softs the way it is.
By incorporating this tire strategy would really make sense and it wouldn't just be a visit to the pits every 6 laps while staying ahead of the harder compounds.

 

[xSNAKEx]

They need to make the tires last 3 times what they last now with the option of adjusting wear rate to please everyone.
*Make the hard tires hold the grip trough their entire life.
*Make the mediums hold grip trough 75% their life.
*Leave the wear:grip ratio of the softs the way it is.
By incorporating this tire strategy would really make sense and it wouldn't just be a visit to the pits every 6 laps while staying ahead of the harder compounds.

I did notice PD did take one thing on board, they made the grip last more evenly throughout the tyre wear. One of my key points when I made this thread was that a Tyre with 90% treat left will have no less grip than one with 100% but it did pre spec 2.0

Actually its funny everything up until now I have made a thread about PD implemented as I wanted. This is the first time they sort of half did something right. The tyre wear indicator is much improved but the tyre wear is ridiculous.

I also dont agree with your "holding grip" percentages by the way. It is a lot more complicated than that and PD need a range of tyres and options to get out of this hole they've dug.

I think they need to have a good hard look at how some real tyres are lasting compared to their simple versions.

I mean, tyres are where car and road meet, its the front line of racing, and PD have paid such little attention to one of the most fundamental aspects of a simulator.

I also think PD have overdone how quickly a tyre heats up starts smoking and wears out. Speaking for non racing cars they can slide sideways on a track for a fair distance and still not produce any smoke or crazy wear and grip loss. In Gt5 as soon as you slide a foot or so the tyre starts smoking startight away!

 

[nasanu]

Pirelli weren't used last year, Bridgestones were so that's an obvious reason why wear rates are different. Also Pirelli is came back to F1 this season with testing in 2010 and still had much work to do to get a quality tire that didn't diminish too fast. Bridgestone had experience and that is why they didn't need to test tires like Pirelli all the time. This also explains wear rates, Bridgestone knows what tire compound works because it was around for several seasons, Pirelli has been back for only one season and is still trying to figure out what compound is best for what track.

Sorry but this is inaccurate. Pirelli were specifically asked to produce tyres that degraded fast to improve the racing. They delivered. But those like you did not know this and just assumed that Pirelli did not know how to make a tyre last. A marketing nightmare. Thus as you will see towards the end of the season they gave into marketing pressure and made their tyres last longer.

It's a shame the uneducated robbed us of the great racing that was seen on the first gen tyres

 

[pantherjag]

Did a 15 lap test around nurburgring gp/f course last night in relation to the test conducted on the other thread by chulyer.

Racing hard tyres
Calsonic impul GTR
Online mode private lobby
No aids bar abs on 1
DFGT wheel

Fastest lap 2.00.9........set on lap 4
Slowest lap 2.04.8....... set on lap 14

Personally i found the tyre degredation quite good fun and very consistent.By end of race tyres still had a 3rd of their life in them and i reckon 20 laps would have been possible with maybe another second of drop off in laptime.

I do understand some of the compalints but then i think others are going over the top saying tyres last only 3 laps. iv got 8-9 laps out of the soft in a similar test and 15 on the medium. Rest assured with thenumber of complaints on the subject i believe PD as we speak will be implementing a solution into one of the future updates

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Sorry but this is inaccurate. Pirelli were specifically asked to produce tyres that degraded fast to improve the racing. They delivered. But those like you did not know this and just assumed that Pirelli did not know how to make a tyre last. A marketing nightmare. Thus as you will see towards the end of the season they gave into marketing pressure and made their tyres last longer.

It's a shame the uneducated robbed us of the great racing that was seen on the first gen tyres

If you paid attention I said this in my other post.

Well yeah that's true but they could be made to last longer no matter the manufacture. Pirelli did that on purpose for more strategic racing to make it exciting along with the DRS obviously and return of KERS. I think Pirelli may stick to this and keep the longevity of tires the same.

Me talking about how Pirelli purposely did that, I follow F1 like no other so I already know. Also the first comment that you quoted is talking how Bridgestone was focused on an aspect that Pirelli wasn't/isn't and may stay the same for 2011. However, this still should be optional when racing on GT5 and not generic as it is now.

 

[madac]

What if PD would bring back all the choices of Racing slicks that they had in some of the older games. I'm pritty sure that in GT3 and maybe GT4 there were the main Hard, Medium and Softs, but those were broken down with a harder, medium and more soft choice.
After playing these games for over 10 years now I guess, I have just kind of given up hope of PD correctly portraying tyre wear of just about all types of racing. I usally just spend the time to try and correct my driving style and do what I can with the set up of the car to get it to last as long as I can with out giving up to much in speed.

With some luck there are ppl in PD that have read this and the other complaints that ppl have made and might acually do something about.

 

[CSLACR]

But I have raced in an online league for Super GT.

I very well know the reputation the car caries, but I have recently begun GT500 testing various GT500 cars, including the Woodone Clarion Gt-R, and the car has not performed as poorly as I had previously feared. It's usually 1-2 seconds off the Hasemi GT-R I'm also currently testing (both fully broken in and limited to 602 hp), and has gotten as close as 7 tenths to the Hasemi on Monza. With Praiano's tune and careful driving, it's not as bad as you make it seem. I certainly haven't been spinning every corner.

1-2 seconds is huge.
7 tenths at Monza is huge.
What is a Hasemi GT-R? I know I don't have one in my copy of GT5.

And I disagree, if you simply hop into a Woodone Clarion GT-R and drive it like any other GT-R, you will immediately break the rear tires loose and spin the car, or be very close to spinning the car. Of course if you hop in knowing the car has terrible grip and be careful, planning on driving slower, then you will probably not spin out.
It's bad enough that at stock power levels it's simply unfair to ask anyone to try to race other cars with it at the same specs. I'd never ask someone to race with that kind of disadvantage against me.

To top it off, with PD's advanced tire wear rate, it burns through tires super fast, and of course it's much easier to spin them, and the problems compound.

 

[Kevin01SH]

If they want to make RS tires only last 10 laps, then the medium and hard compounds should last quite a bit longer and not just 2-3 laps longer. If there was more of a variance between compounds of tires then it would make sense. But the RH tires wear out way too fast as well, certainly PD didnt think this was a good idea? Lets hope they fix this problem

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

They obviously did if they jumped from what we had pre-2.02 to the present 2.02 version. You may be right though that 2.03 at the end of this month will bring better results, but we'll have to wait and see.

 

[laney]

In my opinion comfort tyres should be ditched (maybe even sports tyres), if i was going to race my car i would be using racing tyres, if money was not a problem that is. Everyone keeps saying what they would like to see in the next DLC's and updates but if i had to only choose one thing to add or change it would be the tyre degradation, its the main thing that spoils this game. Including tyre temperature would also make the racing more interesting, forcing the driver to drive more consistent to keep up the performance of the tyres.

 

[TRGTspecialist]

Including tyre temperature would also make the racing more interesting, forcing the driver to drive more consistent to keep up the performance of the tyres.

I thought tyre temperature already was simulated.

They obviously did if they jumped from what we had pre-2.02 to the present 2.02 version. You may be right though that 2.03 at the end of this month will bring better results, but we'll have to wait and see.

If they do make changes I sure hope they don't just revert the wear rate back to what it was before 2.02. I still maintain that for short races the new tyre wear is great (regardless of realism). I think the only sensible thing they can (and should) do for a future update is add a Strong/Weak tyre wear option. I'm not a fan of including an option for every single thing in a game, but this really would satisfy the vast majority of people.

 

[xSNAKEx]

so im guessing there has been no change whatsoever in 2.03?

 

[vrrm]

GT is the only game I play. I've been doing so for a long time and find it consistently better than its competitors. However the new tyre physics are not good.

I compete in a group of 15-20 drivers in endurance races (150km - 200km) over 8 to 12 week seasons (sometimes distance in one or two races is split over 3 sprints).

None of the drivers has a good word to say about the new tyre physics. My experience is that the new model does allow a small strategy advantage if one is driving a well balanced much lighter car than one's competitors. Or within short 8-10 laps races... but rarely. Otherwise it is a real problem.

The longevity of all levels of tyres is now fanciful, for example while testing for a same car series we are planning (the new Aston V12) I managed to following laps / distances at Suzuka, a 5.8 km circuit:

Sports Soft 10 laps - 58 km
Racing Hard 8 laps - 46.4 km
Racing Medium 5 laps - 29 km
Racing Soft 3 laps - 17.4 km

Any thought that GT is a simulator is made a nonsense by these results.

A set of Racing Hard tyres that cannot be driven for 50 kms at racing speeds is absurd.

The new tyre physics has serious problems and contributes little to race strategy and tactics.

People in my group are already talking about turning tyre degredation off during races (these are all hard core no aids drivers), I don't think it will be long before they start talking about forza and iracing.

Very frustrating.

I believe this is a problem that need to be addressed quickly by Polyphony.

 

[atiger]

None of the drivers has a good word to say about the new tyre physics. My experience is that the new model does allow a small strategy advantage if one is driving a well balanced much lighter car than one's competitors. Or within short 8-10 laps races... but rarely. Otherwise it is a real problem.

The longevity of all levels of tyres is now fanciful, for example while testing for a same car series we are planning (the new Aston V12) I managed to following laps / distances at Suzuka, a 5.8 km circuit:

Sports Soft 10 laps - 58 km
Racing Hard 8 laps - 46.4 km
Racing Medium 5 laps - 29 km
Racing Soft 3 laps - 17.4 km

Any thought that GT is a simulator is made a nonsense by these results.

A set of Racing Hard tyres that cannot be driven for 50 kms at racing speeds is absurd.

The new tyre physics has serious problems and contributes little to race strategy and tactics.

People in my group are already talking about turning tyre degredation off during races (these are all hard core no aids drivers), I don't think it will be long before they start talking about forza and iracing.

Very frustrating.

I believe this is a problem that need to be addressed quickly by Polyphony.

My sentiments exactly. I now play GT far less than I used to, for the exact reasons you have outlined. The alternates of forza & iracing I never considered till this new tire wear model came in. Now they're a serious option.

 

[StickMan85]

I haven't read this full thread just the OP and post above mine but tier simulation is very difficult and as iRacing said when they released their newest tire model it's like a simulation within a simulation. So I'd say PD still has a lot of work to do. GT5 is really good but far from what I'd full on simulator. I like to see PD do some real work on tires and it's totally bogus.

 

[Jav]

GT5 has nothing on iRacing never has and never will, that beign said I did enjoy GT5 pre stupid tire wear. GT5 does have many many flaws but the comunity aspect is great and eventhough many aspects like the sounds and physics to some extent suck, the car diversity is pretty nice.
Now this silly tire wear model have totally steered me away from GT5 to the point where MW3 has found permanent residency inside the PS3 and GT5 on MW3's case.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

GT5 has nothing on iRacing never has and never will, that beign said I did enjoy GT5 pre stupid tire wear. GT5 does have many many flaws but the comunity aspect is great and eventhough many aspects like the sounds and physics to some extent suck, the car diversity is pretty nice.
Now this silly tire wear model have totally steered me away from GT5 to the point where MW3 has found permanent residency inside the PS3 and GT5 on MW3's case.

this image is far too familiar with me after I get bored of DLC and the fact that the patches tend to cause a host of new issues. So GT5 finds itself collecting dust.

 

[Jav]

this image is far too familiar with me after I get bored of DLC and the fact that the patches tend to cause a host of new issues. So GT5 finds itself collecting dust.

God with the last DLC all I did was play the cars in demo mode with the different exhaust and that's the last thing I did with them!

 

[vrrm]

I spent significant $'s last year to try iracing and after 6 weeks concluded that on balance GT5 had better functionality for my needs, the physics is not that different but the lack of community and the noob factor in iracing, among other things, turned me off.

My complaint here is that the new tyre physics in GT5 is plainly silly. Not being able to drive 50 km at racing speeds on Racing Hards in an Aston V12 is SILLY. It does not improve the game in any way and is clearly not realistic,

If you agree I hoped you will add your voice to the call to Polyphony to change the tyre model as soon as possible.

 

[Jav]

This thread is already cluttered with my voice and rant's against this silly tire wear model. Some people like it most people don't. The obvious route to fix it would be implementing the option to change between tire wear speed, we've all agreed that 3 settings would be best with current wear rates beign "high", 2x tire lifetime medium and 3-4x beign low tire wear.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I spent significant $'s last year to try iracing and after 6 weeks concluded that on balance GT5 had better functionality for my needs, the physics is not that different but the lack of community and the noob factor in iracing, among other things, turned me off.

My complaint here is that the new tyre physics in GT5 is plainly silly. Not being able to drive 50 km at racing speeds on Racing Hards in an Aston V12 is SILLY. It does not improve the game in any way and is clearly not realistic,

If you agree I hoped you will add your voice to the call to Polyphony to change the tyre model as soon as possible.

You obviously didn't get connected, there is a large community for iRacing to the point that they make sactioned events with actual associated series. One that you might know perhaps is the V8 Supercar series that runs one. Also one doesn't need to spend a ton of money on Iracing. You don't need to buy every car and mainly the tracks are what usually run up the bill. However, when a game pays you to race well the playing field changes as far as race sims go and iracing does that.

Your second part I agree fully with.

 

[profi]

Tyre-wear simulation is unreal.

Not only the time (distance) it takes to wear them out is by far too short but also their behaviour when worn out.

I'd say that a car running just on its rims has more grip in real life than GT5s worn out tyre simulation.

 

[vrrm]

The obvious route to fix it would be implementing the option to change between tire wear speed, we've all agreed that 3 settings would be best with current wear rates beign "high", 2x tire lifetime medium and 3-4x beign low tire wear.

Good idea, creating 3 settings on wear speed would be an improvement, however, I suspect there is a deeper problem in the current model that requires more substantial code change. The wear rate for front tyres is now extreme, worse the degredation does not equate to the on screen tyre monitor, making tuning a problem.

I've tried different driving styles, changed brake bias heavily to the rear, taken weight off the front wheels and the front of the cars, but still find that the overwhelming majority of the cars in my garage chew fronts out significantly faster than rears. Even a car as light and well balanced as the Lotus 111R does not return a balanced wear rate. Lol, not to mention something like the Ford GT LM Test Car, which is a rear wheel driver if ever there was one, still chews fronts out before rears.

3 setting levels will improve the situation, but in my opinion this solution will diguise the real problem rather than fix it.