Is tyre degradation so high in GT5 thats its unrealistic? PD read!

[CSLACR]

Last season they were running 59's to 2'01s from the start until the end of their stints. All the cars used 2 or 3 sets of tires through 86 laps.

The pace is indicating their race tires are close to Racing Hards on GT, with a little less pace (even though they probably have to lap GT300's on the majority of their laps so their pace is a bit compromised) and around 350% more durability. On top of that, towards the end of their stints they will lap only 1.5 - 2.0 secs slower than with fresh tires on a clean lap.

Offline mode/ Racing soft tires/ 532 bhp/1100kg Lexus SC430/

Stage 2 turbo I presume?
So with stage 2 turbo on a GT500 car, on racing softs it's close, shredding the tires.

Now watch them come in and say you're shredding your tires, and that's why your tires aren't lasting long enough.

I have to ask, how many of YOU drive tires screaming on the corner?
I have noticed that on Online races many people go for the "time trial" lap times and the tires last for couple of laps. (all though most of the races are very short. *sigh*)

And if you check i.e. on youtube for GT races, those tires don't scream and if they do, you can clearly hear it.

Folks, the irony in that is that it requires shredding the tires to run an equal lap, so claiming shredding tires is the reason for less tire durability means the lap time should be much faster, but they're not.

Open challenge though - Make a video of yourself or anyone on the planet racing and running real life times in a real life spec car, and achieve real life tire wear.
I'll hold my breath.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

SuperSic that was an awesome lap and you ran your lines and corner entries really well.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Last season they were running 59's to 2'01s from the start until the end of their stints. All the cars used 2 or 3 sets of tires through 86 laps.

In 2006, cars were running 1'55s (including the same ARTA NSX that is in the game). It's impressive that the tires can run that fast and last for 30 laps. There's nothing comparable in GT5.

 

[SuperSic]

Stage 2 turbo I presume?
So with stage 2 turbo on a GT500 car, on racing softs it's close, shredding the tires.

Now watch them come in and say you're shredding your tires, and that's why your tires aren't lasting long enough.

I'll be here waiting.

SuperSic that was an awesome lap and you ran your lines and corner entries really well.

Thanks a lot bro.

In 2006, cars were running 1'55s (like the same ARTA NSX that is in the game). It's impressive that the tires can run that fast and last for 30 laps. There's nothing comparable in GT5.

And it's not like PD doesn't know any better, they have been supporting JGTC/Super GT for years now though GT. So they must have a reason for messing this up so bad, but i can't figure what it is.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

And it's not like PD doesn't know any better, they have been supporting JGTC/Super GT for years now though GT. So they must have a reason for messing this up so bad, but i can't figure what it is.

Just like all things GT it becomes hard to realize why they go certain routes when their fan base knows better. It's not like most of us here aren't racing enthusiast and watch races from all lines every weekend. So they should know better by now that they're not selling games to the average gamer, and this should be more apparent with them running a GT academy. How can you run an academy getting drivers who play the game and bring them over to real world, when the game doesn't properly re-create the real world.

 

[Zer0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eSHCZEF5V0

Explain to me please what is the GT5 equivalent tire for me to replicate this lap.

Have you tried with other cars than Super GT? or in other tracks?

I was talking as a general rule with Racing tyres in GT games versus their realistic real world lap times. Exceptions are there and maybe some racing cars have been adjusted, grip wise, to be more accurate with the R(?).


But for example, a random Nurburgring lap with RS:

-Real (Stock Tyres)
7:55 - Ferrari F430 F1 - Horst von Saurma - Sport Auto (01/2006)

-GT5 (Racing Soft tyres)
6:49 - Ferrari F430 (Stock) Link

Time difference = -1:06

-Real (Road legal Semi-Slick tyres)
6:48 - Radical SR8 LM - Michael Vergers - 19 August 2009

Really?...


What I don't understand is how some people are passing an exception for a general rule for all cars and for all tracks. Racing Soft are clearly killing the realism for most of the cars but people insist asking for a realistic wear on them. At least until now the R tyres always have been intended to ease the game. I have put the previous examples of GT Academy and the real world vs game tests and their PD selected lower than default grip tyres.

How can you run an academy getting drivers who play the game and bring them over to real world, when the game doesn't properly re-create the real world.

Close enought to me for a first step into real training and racing.

 

[SuperSic]

Have you tried with other cars than Super GT? or in other tracks?

I was talking as a general rule with Racing tyres in GT games versus their realistic real world lap times. Exceptions are there and maybe some racing cars have been adjusted, grip wise, to be more accurate with the R(?).


But for example, a random Nurburgring lap with RS:

-Real (Stock Tyres)
7:55 - Ferrari F430 F1 - Horst von Saurma - Sport Auto (01/2006)

-GT5 (Racing Soft tyres)
6:49 - Ferrari F430 (Stock) Link

Time difference = -1:06

6:48 - Radical SR8 LM - Michael Vergers - 19 August 2009

Really?...

Congratulations for testing the F430 with Racing Soft tires and figuring the time difference. I am now enlightened.

 

[Zer0]

Congratulations for testing the F430 with Racing Soft tires and figuring the time difference. I am now enlightened.

Was an example of the unrealism of those tyres in GT5.

Or do you think that a stock F430 with the softest real world tyres available can match the performance of a Radical SR8 LM?..

 

[Tornado]

Or do you think that a stock F430 with the softest real world tyres available can match the performance of a Radical SR8 LM?..

Do you have any proof to show that it wouldn't?

 

[Zer0]

Do you have any proof to show that it wouldn't?

Common sense?

Just look at the specs...

http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/radical_sr8lm.html
http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/ferrari_f430.html

 

[Tornado]

Common sense?

One would think "common sense" would dictate that going from normal road tires (like the Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar runflats that the F430 comes with) to road-legal track tires (like the Dunlop Direzza DZ02G tires the record setting Radical used, as far as I've been able to ascertain) would be worth several seconds time difference even on a short track, let alone one that is 13 miles long. In fact, on that very same 13 mile track, switching to those exact tires on something as pedestrian as a stock Toyota Celica GT (while admittedly not the most direct of comparisons) slashed 32 seconds off of their lap times.

One would also think "common sense" would dictate that the absolutely massive grip difference between borderline track tires and honest-to-goodness racing slicks that happen to be the "softest real world tyres available" would be worth even more seconds even on a short track. Which, again, the Nurburgring is very much not.





I suppose I simply thought wrong.

 

[Zer0]

One would think "common sense" would dictate that going from normal road tires (like the Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar runflats that the F430 comes with) to road-legal track tires (like the Dunlop Direzza DZ02G tires the record setting Radical used, as far as I've been able to ascertain) would be worth several seconds time difference even on a short track, let alone one that is 13 miles long. In fact, on that very same 13 mile track, switching to those exact tires on something as pedestrian as a stock Toyota Celica GT (while admittedly not the most direct of comparisons) slashed 32 seconds off of their lap times.

One would also think "common sense" would dictate that the absolutely massive grip difference between borderline track tires and honest-to-goodness racing slicks that happen to be the "softest real world tyres available" would be worth even more seconds even on a short track. Which, again, the Nurburgring is very much not.

You are trying to reinvent the global race engineering with a single component. We are not talking about changing tyres in the same underpowered car(more room to improve with lesser efforts), but a fast road luxury sports car with too good to be true amazing tyres vs a very fast "race car" with good tyres.

Obviously when the virtual performance tops the fastest road production car at Nurburgring(almost a race car with a license plate) with more than double the power to weight ratio, less than a half the weight, nearly the same power and build with racing spec downforce in mind(more grip) and not with beauty or functionality then the common sense can tell you that there is something that does not compute with that maths.

That is if the simplified RS handling does not make you suspect first.. lap times aside even the real Super GT drivers loose grip more often than happens with GT5 RS tyres. Clearly seen when you look at their steering inputs.

 

[Scaff]

-Real (Slick Tyres?)
6:48 - Radical SR8 LM - Michael Vergers - 19 August 2009

Nope, not full slicks. The same road legal semi slick tyres the car drove to and from the track on from the UK, Dunlop Direnzas.


http://www.supercars.net/cars/3838.html

Scaff

 

[Zer0]

Thanks Scaff, forget to edit that part.

Anyway in the Dunlop page they pictured a different wheel, more race oriented. Link

No opinion about the F430 RS performance?

 

[CSLACR]

Have you tried with other cars than Super GT? or in other tracks?

I was talking as a general rule with Racing tyres in GT games versus their realistic real world lap times. Exceptions are there and maybe some racing cars have been adjusted, grip wise, to be more accurate with the R(?).


But for example, a random Nurburgring lap with RS:

-Real (Stock Tyres)
7:55 - Ferrari F430 F1 - Horst von Saurma - Sport Auto (01/2006)

-GT5 (Racing Soft tyres)
6:49 - Ferrari F430 (Stock) Link

Time difference = -1:06

-Real (Road legal Semi-Slick tyres)
6:48 - Radical SR8 LM - Michael Vergers - 19 August 2009

Really?...


What I don't understand is how some people are passing an exception for a general rule for all cars and for all tracks. Racing Soft are clearly killing the realism for most of the cars but people insist asking for a realistic wear on them. At least until now the R tyres always have been intended to ease the game. I have put the previous examples of GT Academy and the real world vs game tests and their PD selected lower than default grip tyres.

So you're comparing apples and oranges and actually expect anyone else to call that "proof" of anything?
Apples on road legal tires, vs oranges on slicks, and you feel, based off zero (pun) evidence, that this is incorrect?

Congratulations for testing the F430 with Racing Soft tires and figuring the time difference. I am now enlightened.

I second this.
Now I see where people get the idea the tires have "to much grip" it's through random testing and assumption!👍

No opinion about the F430 RS performance?

Do you have anything at all to tell us what the car should run on soft slicks in real life besides a personal guess?

 

[SuperSic]

No opinion about the F430 RS performance?

Who the hell cares about that. Road cars should have road tires. End of story.

Now, the poor guys who race in Championships with Race Cars, and need R-tires to achieve realistic laptimes and have natural physics, what do you say to them when they have to change tires every 4/7/10 laps around Suzuka with RS/RM/RH accordingly? Isn't this the main question this thread is dealing with?

PS. I don't expect you to have any type of enlightening answer to my almost rhetorical question, so please don't answer with nonsense just for the sake of arguing. Polyphony Digital owes us the answer.

 

[SkylineObsession]

My 2c on the matter (likely been said in here already) is that it is a videogame.

The tyres probably wear so fast so that you have to make regular pitstops and think more about pit strategy than you normally would.

 

[cuco33]

-GT5 (Racing Soft tyres)
6:49 - Ferrari F430 (Stock) Link

The guy can drive, a whole lot better than I but that could be just me not being the best on Nord. Give me Tsukuba or Laguna Seca and I'm competitive with the best of them but Nord? I'm a rookie!
Shame he redline pings during downshifts while hard braking, which gives you an advantage in the twisties. Try that in real life and you'll get a transmission that grenaded or a damaged engine.

 

[SuperSic]

My 2c on the matter (likely been said in here already) is that it is a videogame.

The tyres probably wear so fast so that you have to make regular pitstops and think more about pit strategy than you normally would.

Why? Cause it's fun? So you think PD is really that naive?

We have a whole section here @ GTP for racing series and each and every one of them is having a problem with the new tire wear system. You're telling me that PD decided that the majority of these racers would prefer to pit 5-10 times more often compared with RL? And they did it for the best?

And now someone else will pop in and claim that PD is more focused on the casual lobbies with 5 or 10-lap quick races, and therefore made RS tires destroy at 4 to make it more interesting. Even if that was the case, which is completely retarded, they sure as hell could add some options, like Realistic/Enhanced/Massive tire wear so we can all race the way we prefer.

 

[CSLACR]

My 2c on the matter (likely been said in here already) is that it is a videogame.

The tyres probably wear so fast so that you have to make regular pitstops and think more about pit strategy than you normally would.

I was thinking similarly myself. That PD makes the tires wear so quickly so we can "simulate" long races in less time but (in their minds) still get the "feel" of a longer race.
God forbid they gave us options if that is the case, we've got plenty of series where people run mediums and soft tires anyway, so with realistic tire wear I really don't see the problem.

 

[SuperSic]

I was thinking similarly myself. That PD makes the tires wear so quickly so we can "simulate" long races in less time but (in their minds) still get the "feel" of a longer race.
God forbid they gave us options if that is the case, we've got plenty of series where people run mediums and soft tires anyway, so with realistic tire wear I really don't see the problem.

Lol bro, great minds,or drivers in our case, think alike. And we are synchronized too.

 

[CSLACR]

Lol bro, great minds,or drivers in our case, think alike. And we are synchronized too.

Maybe I'll have a shot at Monaco with your car fattened up.

The shame is that all they had to do to fix tire wear was simply increase to durability of medium and hards, that's it. Sounds simple enough at least, surely if they can patch in to make tires wear faster, you'd think they could patch in to make them wear longer, no?

 

[Zer0]

So you're comparing apples and oranges and actually expect anyone else to call that "proof" of anything?
Apples on road legal tires, vs oranges on slicks, and you feel, based off zero (pun) evidence, that this is incorrect?

I second this.
Now I see where people get the idea the tires have "to much grip" it's through random testing and assumption!👍

I was comparing top performances and how the extreme grip of the RS tyres can unrealistically close the gap between very different cars.

If you prefer I can change the Radical for the Zonda R, they have almost the same times at Nurburgring but the Zonda is not even road legal and use slicks.

-Real (Racing Slick tyres)
6:47.50 - Pagani Zonda R
750 bhp / 560 KW
1070 kilo / 2358.9 lbs
350 km/h (217 mph)
0-60 mph 2.6 s


-GT5 (Racing Soft tyres)
6:49 - Ferrari F430 (Stock) Link
483 bhp / 360 KW
1450 kilo / 3196.7 lbs
315 km/h (196 mph)
0-60 mph 3.9 s

Really?...

Now, the poor guys who race in Championships with Race Cars, and need R-tires to achieve realistic laptimes and have natural physics, what do you say to them when they have to change tires every 4/7/10 laps around Suzuka with RS/RM/RH accordingly? Isn't this the main question this thread is dealing with?

PS. I don't expect you to have any type of enlightening answer to my almost rhetorical question, so please don't answer with nonsense just for the sake of arguing. Polyphony Digital owes us the answer.

Again check the real vid in my previous post and if you want that handling forget about R tyres.. you will also have more realistic wear with lower grip than R.

I have not checked all race cars in all tracks combinations but often R tyres gives faster that real life times. If you found an exception pick the tyres that give you the best expected wear, forget about times and try to enjoy a more realistic game. At least until PD change some things or names in GT5.

 

[SuperSic]

Maybe I'll have a shot at Monaco with your car fattened up.

I heard you're kinda fat too.. Remains to be seen.

The shame is that all they had to do to fix tire wear was simply increase to durability of medium and hards, that's it. Sounds simple enough at least, surely if they can patch in to make tires wear faster, you'd think they could patch in to make them wear longer, no?

They could, for sure, but would they? They are supposed to be making the game better with updates, and now they'll not only undo the change, but change it towards the opposite direction? Imagine how bad they will look.

So, no i don't expect them to change anything anytime soon, i just wish. And we know how stubborn they are, it took them 5 years to semi-fix the goddamn slipstream effect.(from GT5P)

 

[SuperSic]

Again check the real vid in my previous post and if you want that handling forget about R tyres.. you will also have more realistic wear with lower grip than R.

I have not checked all race cars in all tracks combinations but often R tyres gives faster that real life times. If you found an exception pick the tyres that give you the best expected wear, forget about times and try to enjoy a more realistic game. At least until PD change some things or names in GT5.

So you are telling me that i should hit 53's at Suzuka with S tires like the guys on your video do? Are you mad? Have you ever driven a GT500 @Suzuka in GT?

And no, i don't wanna forget about laptimes and drive boats around Suzuka, i want the game i bought, the real driving simulator, unless they decided to change that too with the 2.02 to make it ''The real pit-stop simulator''.

PS. Sorry for the double post.

 

[CSLACR]

I was comparing top performances and how the extreme grip of the RS tyres can unrealistically close the gap between very different cars.

If you prefer I can change the Radical for the Zonda R, they have almost the same times at Nurburgring but the Zonda is not even road legal and use slicks.

-Real (Racing Slick tyres)
6:47.50 - Pagani Zonda R
750 bhp / 560 KW
1070 kilo / 2358.9 lbs
350 km/h (217 mph)
0-60 mph 2.6 s

There's your apple.

-GT5 (Racing Soft tyres)
6:49 - Ferrari F430 (Stock) Link
483 bhp / 360 KW
1450 kilo / 3196.7 lbs
315 km/h (196 mph)
0-60 mph 3.9 s

Really?...

And your orange.

Assuming the Zonda R did run on racing slicks, we still don't know what type of slicks.
I have nothing to tell me this is impossible whatsoever. Until you have a video of a real world lap in a stock F430 on soft racing slicks running a significantly different lap time, this remains a nothing comparison.

So, no i don't expect them to change anything anytime soon, i just wish. And we know how stubborn they are, it took them 5 years to semi-fix the goddamn slipstream effect.(from GT5P)

Actually the drafting effect has been around even longer, I'm afraid, at least since GT4, but I believe since GT1.

Agreed it won't change anytime soon though, fingers crossed anyway.

 

[Jav]

They could, for sure, but would they? They are supposed to be making the game better with updates, and now they'll not only undo the change, but change it towards the opposite direction? Imagine how bad they will look.

So, no i don't expect them to change anything anytime soon, i just wish. And we know how stubborn they are, it took them 5 years to semi-fix the goddamn slipstream effect.(from GT5P)

Man I'm with you on that thought, can only hope they atleast give us the ability to adjust the wear rate soon, something where the high setting was the current 2.02 wear rate and the Low wear would be 3-4 times the durability.

So you are telling me that i should hit 53's at Suzuka with S tires like the guys on your video do? Are you mad? Have you ever driven a GT500 @Suzuka in GT?

And no, i don't wanna forget about laptimes and drive boats around Suzuka, i want the game i bought, the real driving simulator, unless they decided to change that too with the 2.02 to make it ''The real pit-stop simulator''.

PS. Sorry for the double post.

Yeah! The real pitstop simulator where you can't even drive into the pits!

Zero, the tire/physics model in this game is broken. They do a real good job, but it is just impossible to use just one tire model for 1000+ cars! They are just opening themselves to compromise, plain and simple.

 

[CSLACR]

Wait, what?
The tire model should be identical for every car, surely tire physics don't change, ever.

 

[Jav]

Wait, what?
The tire model should be identical for every car, surely tire physics don't change, ever.

Not really, a 97 civic would never be able to fit a 345/30/18 slick tire under it's fender wells, but somehow it manages to do so in this game(not literaly but you get the point).
iRacing/rFactor/GTR and many other titles have a specific tire model created for each and every car they have to offer. And by physics I don't mean the laws that will govern the games universe but how the cars will react to it. Again the previously mentioned titles have a set of "physics" written for each and every car. And is this attention to detail wich make or brakes the countless numbers of mods available for them.

 

[CSLACR]

Not really, a 97 civic would never be able to fit a 345/30/18 slick tire under it's fender wells, but somehow it manages to do so in this game(not literaly but you get the point).
iRacing/rFactor/GTR and many other titles have a specific tire model created for each and every car they have to offer. And by physics I don't mean the laws that will govern the games universe but how the cars will react to it. Again the previously mentioned titles have a set of "physics" written for each and every car. And is this attention to detail wich make or brakes the countless numbers of mods available for them.

You're missing the point. Tire physics don't change, ever.

What does what tires a Civic can fit matter? You can't change tire size in GT, so everything remains stock. that's not actually a tire physics flaw, but a customization flaw.
You do not need a tire physics model for every car in the game if no car can change wheel/tire size.