Islam - What's your view on it?

  • Thread starter SalmanBH
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While we are talking about Government Laws, i woke up earlier and opened Twitter only to see this in trending lists:
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Bahrain just banned selling alcohol...:rolleyes: You just lost plenty of Saudi visitors due to a law that won't effect most of people anyway. I mean who cares if someone got drunk? maybe if he's/she's your son/daughter but some random strangers?
I won't drink but really?
What else that it effected? oh yeah now we are one step closer to KSA in terms of laws rather than UAE or Qatar therefore this country will be even worse than it's before.
 
I'll stop you right there. The whole point I'm making is that that's not what has taken place. Sure @mister dog, if you hate all Muslims, let us know - I haven't read that. I've seen that you perhaps think they're mad for following the faith, that you are suspicious of the cultures it has inspired, but not that you hate all Muslims. Not at all. Please, let us know though. I enjoy demeaning stupid people, and don't want to miss out.

This is what I call a fallacy, it's your application of Implied thought that you not seeing.

Dislike of Islamic culture =/= Dislike of all Muslims.

I've already stressed multiple times that I do not believe hatred of Islamic culture, is in no way equal to hatred of Muslims as a whole! However you both seem very keen to ignore the fact that I have...

Hating a culture, is fine. Hating the entirety of a cultures population, for following said culture, is not. A dislike of Judaism did not cause the holocaust, but the hatred of those who followed it, certainly did. And frankly it’s not your animosity of Islam that’s terrifying (it’s understandable), but your raging hatred towards Muslims.

Perhaps you misunderstand that just because Islam has many evils, does not mean that all those who practice Islam, prescribe to those evils too? Because believe it or not Muslims, like Christians, Catholics, and any other person of religion, has the free will to choose what parts of their religion they folllow.

If I thought of them as both one and the same, I wouldn't be calling one acceptable, and the other not so. If @mister dog doesn't dislike Muslims in general, I just wonder why he shared this video (actually watch it for yourself)?

Must have been posted already here, but anyway here it goes:




Need I discuss the problems with this video again? Ben Shapiro openly, and unashamedly, tries to portray the majority of Muslims, as prescribing too the evils of Islam. He even says at the end of the video; radical Muslims are “now a majority”. An untruth that was easy to present as fact as he knew that, despite his deliberate falsification of the Pew findings, and outright lying, most of his followers would never check the Pew’s findings themselves.

At the end of the video Ben also says “it’s fair to assume that similar assume that similar proportions of people in countries like Algeria, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Tunisia, Somalia, and Libya, are also radicalized”. Which in fact isn’t fair at all because, as Pew Research showed, views on most matters in the Islamic world differ greatly among Muslim populations not just in singular countries, but the world over.

When you watch the video, and check the sources yourselves, its prejudice-inspiring motive is obvious. It deliberately ignores the widely differing beliefs among Muslims worldwide (over many subjects), takes the worst of the bunch, and portrays them as representing the majority. I fail to see how anyone would share something so clearly nonfactual, and hate-mongering, unless it pandered to their personal feelings.

So in Short you have failed to work out the difference between an ideology in words, to a Human species.

Seeing as I identified Islam and Muslims as two different things from the outset, no! No I did not...

Hating a culture, is fine. Hating the entirety of a cultures population, for following said culture, is not. A dislike of Judaism did not cause the holocaust, but the hatred of those who followed it, certainly did. And frankly it’s not your animosity of Islam that’s terrifying (it’s understandable), but your raging hatred towards Muslims.

Again, had I believed them to be one and the same, I'd not have been calling one acceptable, and the other unacceptable! 👍

No of course not, one of my best friends converted to Islam more than 10 years ago, and I give him a hard time about his religion too. When I was living in Belgium I had Turkish and Moroccan friends and there was a time I actually liked Islam and read the Koran because I was generally interested in what all the fuss was about. I only got halfway reading it though as already then I started to see the issues with it, and in the past decade those issues only became more obvious looking at the world and the problems we are facing with ruthless Islamic extremism. That's why again I would like to stress it is of utmost importance that people call out the grave problems with this ideology, as minimising them leads us away from even starting to do something about it and protecting our societies from said Islamic extremism.

There's no issue with calling out the depravity of Islamic culture, as it exists in abundance. What really unsettles me is that video you shared; the issues with which, I have already discussed. It deliberately ignores the widely differing beliefs among Muslims worldwide (over many subjects), takes the worst of the bunch, and portrays them as representing the majority; despite Pew Research having proven the wide variety in believes. I just wonder why you'd share that video, when it's so clearly flawed?
 
@Kuusi

Just because you say X is okay to dislike so long as you don't hate Y for following it doesn't mean you understand that.

I have yet to see someone say on this Forum, I hate Islam therefore i must hate all Muslims for following it, it's more under I dislike Islam and some Muslims for how some of the Muslims Follow Islam.

What your effectively saying is you can dislike Islamic Culture but a dislike for some Muslims means you dislike all Muslims, there is a difference here you have yet to acknowledge.

Humans are not static beings that will follow something in the same way, some will follow the same thing another person follows in a completely different way that can certainly justify a dislike that other sections of people don't.

For instance ISIS is a Islamic terrorist group who follow Wahhabi Sunni Islam, you can not say to me a dislike for these people can be lumped under a moderate Sunni or Shia Muslim who has never threatened another being in their life and doesn't practise Islam in remotely the same way.

Islam is a branch term of many different interpretations so you have to be more specific then saying Islam = Muslims.
 
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@Kuusi

Just because you say X is okay to dislike so long as you don't hate Y for following it doesn't mean you understand that.

I have yet to see someone say I hate X therefore i must hate all of Y for following it, it's more under I dislike X and some of Y for how some of Y Follow X.

What your effectively saying is you can dislike Islamic Culture but a dislike for some Muslims means you dislike all Muslims, there is a difference here you have yet to acknowledge.

Wrong...

Islam is a religion with many different denominations, and interpretations. A Muslim is someone who practices Islam. But due to the number of said denominations, and interpretations, you can't make a clear judgement about someone, from being a Muslim. Just like you can't with a Christian, or a Catholic.

Humans are not static beings that will follow something in the same way, some will follow the same thing another person follows in a completely different way that can certainly justify a dislike that other sections of people don't.

👍
 
The point I'm trying to make, is don't put words in peoples mouths if they didn't say it.

If you think someone is implying something you still can't accuse them of saying it, if they didn't.

Especially when the definition which you claim to acknowledge is such a loose term.
 
The point I'm trying to make, is don't put words in peoples mouths if they didn't say it.

If you think someone is implying something you still can't accuse them of saying it, if they didn't.

When what someone is implying is clear, to simply ignore it, just because they didn't say it directly, can be dangerous. Not in this exact singular case mind. But back in Germany, in the 1930's, the anti-Jew sentiment wasn't direct at first. So everyone turned a blind-eye too it. However, it quickly grew into something much more sinister.

Especially when the definition which you claim to acknowledge is such a loose term.

I guess it's only regarded as a "loose term" when it didn't work in your favour, the way you thought it would, huh? :lol:
 
Hilarious.

So, to criticise Islam is not to criticise Muslims in general

That's right. Because Islam is a religion, Muslims are those who practice Islam. If been stating all along that there is a difference, but you seem keen to ignore that I have done so, as acknowledging it take away the only argument you seemingly have.

Except when @mister dog does it.

Hilarious. I never said it was bad only when he does it! :rolleyes:

Play the game, just like many others do, @Kuusi. Shouldn't be too difficult to set @mister dog up for a ripper gotcha, if the seething hate is so palpable.

History has proven that ignoring hateful sentiments in society, just because they aren't said directly, can lead to tragic consequences. That is why I'm bothered by @mister dog sharing of that fact bending, and outright lying, hate-mongering Ben Shapiro video. How about you actually go back and watch that video, and then check the Pew Research sources yourself? The misrepresentation of facts to try and smear all Muslims with the dirtiest brush in the draw is obvious, to anyone who takes the time to watch the video, and read the Pew Research documents themselves. As long as they are. I cannot fathom why anyone would share something like that, unless it pandered to their personal views.
 
I never said it was bad only when he does it!
And I didn't say that you said that. Your struggles with reality may be more pervasive than I initially suspected.

My suggestion is to go back, read it properly, delete your misquotes, and offer a more logical response.

History has proven that ignoring hateful sentiments in society, just because they aren't said directly, can lead to tragic consequences.
You don't see it? You don't see the irony? You're essentially doing to @mister dog what you claim is being done in the video. It's a misrepresentative extrapolation. The real kicker is that the concerns expressed in the video seemingly come from a person fearing that too much of society is "ignoring hateful sentiments".
 
And I didn't say that you said that. Your struggles with reality may be more pervasive than I initially suspected.

My suggestion is to go back, read it properly, delete your misquotes, and offer a more logical response.

You said it to imply either that I'm taking a cheap pot shot at him specifically, just because a few others were questioning him earlier. Or that to imply that that is what I believe. Nice try, but there is no other reason you would have said it; unless your view had suddenly changed.

You don't see it? You don't see the irony? You're essentially doing to @mister dog what you claim is being done in the video. It's a misrepresentative extrapolation. The real kicker is that the concerns expressed in the video seemingly come from a person fearing that too much of society is "ignoring hateful sentiments".

You're still ever so conveniently dodging the question; why did he share that video? Up to that point he had been skeptical of Muslims. So the view of someone who is known to be skeptical towards them, sharing a video basically saying "most of them are bad", isn't hard to judge. Especially not with an evasive attitude like this, when confronted...

That's the stigma lefties love to use on anyone who dares to speak up and calls the issues with Islam (or migrants) for what they are.
And what would that be, exactly? :confused:
Open a newspaper 👍

You know how MP's dodge when they don't want to say something, that they know will land them in hot water? ;) Maybe for you telling where someone's view points rest, without them simply telling you directly, is too mentally challenging?

And the concerns expressed in the video, aren't really concerns at all. What they are in fact, is anti-Muslim propaganda. You'd realize, if you could even be bothered to read the research yourself, rather than rely on the video alone, that he has taken the worst of the worst, and inflated them; to try and suggest that they tell the whole story. But because you can't be bothered to read the research, I don't know why I'm wasting my time with you! :rolleyes:
 
You said it to imply either that I'm taking a cheap pot shot at him specifically, just because a few others were questioning him earlier. Or that to imply that that is what I believe. Nice try, but there is no other reason you would have said it; unless your view had suddenly changed.
It wasn't about good/"bad" at all. That's the problem. It was a question of conflation or not, and your selective application of a principle.

Roll your eyes all you like. With your comprehension issues, it's already a conversation under false pretences. I don't have the drive to clean up that mess for you, and I don't hold any hope of better comprehension going forward, were that to occur, anyway.

Enjoy the release of endorphins, consistent with having achieved "victory"-by-misappropriated-retreat.
 
@LeMansAid Try looking in the mirror, sunshine! 👍

Your lack of ability to realise what is being implied, and what isn’t, makes me wonder how you manage in real life; as implications is how the world works, much of the time. The world isn’t as direct a place as you seemingly like to believe.

I was never making any implications about what was being said. I was reading between the lines of the things he had already said, and connecting the dots with other material, that he had shared (such as the video). I wouldn’t advise a detective career for you, because it’s really not that hard. Yet you still can’t manage it.
 
Not all Muslims are bad. When I got out of prison I was homeless and just happened to meet a Muslim guy delivering newspapers(ironically I work down there with him now doing my own routes). I worked for him for about a week and he offered to let me stay at a house he owns(he was working on it). He let me stay for free, all I had to do was help him work and fix what I could around the house. I asked him one day why he was helping a stranger, he said, it's his mission from God(Allah) to help those in need. He was a very nice guy he'd give you the shirt off his back if you needed it. That said I didn't exactly like how he treated his wife, but that's another story. I'm grateful every day for what that man did for me.
 
Not all Muslims are bad............. I asked him one day why he was helping a stranger, he said, it's his mission from God(Allah) to help those in need........... I didn't exactly like how he treated his wife, but that's another story.
It's not another story, and that's not exactly a glowing endorsement.

Depending on the specifics of the treatment of his wife, doing good for the sake of a master who's existence can't be substantiated in any way is far from a trump card - and is a hell of a way from altruism. Muslims should be offended by your post. Prefacing with "Not all Muslims are bad" rather crudely implies that there's some sort of predilection to bad behaviour, but that some manage to be decent or good humans despite that. "Points" count the same for Muslims and non-Muslims alike, and to suggest otherwise is to be horribly condescending to Muslims.
 
It's not another story, and that's not exactly a glowing endorsement.

Depending on the specifics of the treatment of his wife, doing good for the sake of a master who's existence can't be substantiated in any way is far from a trump card - and is a hell of a way from altruism. Muslims should be offended by your post. Prefacing with "Not all Muslims are bad" rather crudely implies that there's some sort of predilection to bad behaviour, but that some manage to be decent or good humans despite that. "Points" count the same for Muslims and non-Muslims alike, and to suggest otherwise is to be horribly condescending to Muslims.

But not all Christians are bad either... did I just offend some Christians here on GTP with that? Anyone?
 
But not all Christians are bad either... did I just offend some Christians here on GTP with that? Anyone?
Did you read "Not all Muslims are bad", and take it as a clinical percentage-like evaluation of a demographic? Or within a context of them being predisposed to bad behaviour, and that @ryzno had come across an exception? I read it as the latter.

If we're meant to believe that Islam is compatible with the values of modern western society, Muslims must be judged by the exact same standards, and not given "brownie points" for simply not being bad. Otherwise, it's condescending to Muslims, and unfair on non-Muslims. If we pander, the only winners are Muslims that would seek to take advantage of the leeway.

Hey, maybe I read it wrong, but if someone said "Not all poms are lazy whingers", I wouldn't be at all surprised (if there had been a sustained attack based on that very issue) if you read into it that they were suggesting that a lot are. It doesn't help that the response here addressed the wrong issue. @ryzno The question was whether or not you were endorsing his character, not the religion, but if you tell me that you were making a purely statistical observation in regards to the Muslim aspect, I'll take you at face value.
 
Did you read "Not all Muslims are bad", and take it as a clinical percentage-like evaluation of a demographic? Or within a context of them being predisposed to bad behaviour, and that @ryzno had come across an exception? I read it as the latter.

If we're meant to believe that Islam is compatible with the values of modern western society, Muslims must be judged by the exact same standards, and not given "brownie points" for simply not being bad. Otherwise, it's condescending to Muslims, and unfair on non-Muslims. If we pander, the only winners are Muslims that would seek to take advantage of the leeway.

Hey, maybe I read it wrong, but if someone said "Not all poms are lazy whingers", I wouldn't be at all surprised (if there had been a sustained attack based on that very issue) if you read into it that they were suggesting that a lot are. It doesn't help that the response here addressed the wrong issue. @ryzno The question was whether or not you were endorsing his character, not the religion, but if you tell me that you were making a purely statistical observation in regards to the Muslim aspect, I'll take you at face value.
Just like in the other thread you and everyone else, "read into it" what y'all want.
I can only imagine what would have happened if I would have happened to say, not all Muslims are good.

So on that bomb shell,
Not all Muslims are bad.
Not all Christians are bad.
Not all Catholics are bad.
Not all Jehovah Witnesses are bad, annoying though.
Not all Atheists are bad.
Not all Satanists are bad.
Not all Buddhists are bad.
And in the 100's+ religions not all of the people are bad.
Just cause your religious doesn't make you a good person either. Happy?

All I was trying to do was use dude as an example that there are good people. I could careless what he and his wife do. It didn't affect me while I was there and it doesn't affect me now, so if I offended someone with my observation of a unknown religion to me sorry. That's what I took away from it.

Now stop harassing me with crap that you "read into it".
 

Ah, that's even better.

Funnily enough, in that Telegraph article it describes the burkini as a "full-body swimsuit". There is no doubt in my mind that if that was its name from day one, and that it was never marketed as a "burkini" but happened to be a popular choice for Muslim women thanks to market demand and its simple, innovative design, that there would be far less furore over any of this. I'd imagine that the burkini could also be marketed towards people who feel embarrassed about exposing their bodies.

It's just a swimsuit with a built-in hood. Get a grip for Allah's sake...
 
I think this debate is so intriguing because there are good and bad points on both sides. What a time to be an English teacher - imagine setting up a debate on this issue in class! (Actually don't. The way things are in some places the police could be called in for a hate crime issue :lol:)

It seems, as always, the only winners of this are Islamic extremists and extreme Right Wingers:

See, they ban part of our culture and want to force our women against awrah! Kill the infidels!

See, look how they cower in fear and reverse their decision. Strict Islam is the only way! Kill the infidels!

----

Islam extremism on the rise. Ban it!

Islam extremism on the rise. Weak leaders!
 
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It's a lot more fun worrying about the amount of skin exposed on a female beachgoer than it is to analyze any religion.
 
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