Islam - What's your view on it?

[Scaff]

The name calling and personal insults will stop now.

Failing to do so and a two day temp ban will be issued.

This applies to everyone posting.

 

[DCP]

Guys, you will keep going on in circles trying to justify Islam in which ever way you choose.
Best you read the Islamic sources of Muhammed. The hadiths www.sunnah.com
The last ten years of Muhammeds life was filled with violence among other things.
in Islam, Muhammed is the code of conduct for ALL muslims. Perhaps they were told only one side of Muhammed's life, and today, many cannot accept or believe the other side.

Radical Islam will continue to try and take over the world. They've never stopped trying.
It's fitting that Muhammed said he was made victorious through terror.

Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 52 :: Hadith 220
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand."

 

[mister dog]

@Kuusi One of the quotes somehow ended up with your name put to it by error (I assume).


I'll stop you right there. The whole point I'm making is that that's not what has taken place. Sure @mister dog, if you hate all Muslims, let us know - I haven't read that. I've seen that you perhaps think they're mad for following the faith, that you are suspicious of the cultures it has inspired, but not that you hate all Muslims. Not at all. Please, let us know though. I enjoy demeaning stupid people, and don't want to miss out.

No of course not, one of my best friends converted to Islam more than 10 years ago, and I give him a hard time about his religion too. When I was living in Belgium I had Turkish and Moroccan friends and there was a time I actually liked Islam and read the Koran because I was generally interested in what all the fuss was about. I only got halfway reading it though as already then I started to see the issues with it, and in the past decade those issues only became more obvious looking at the world and the problems we are facing with ruthless Islamic extremism. That's why again I would like to stress it is of utmost importance that people call out the grave problems with this ideology, as minimising them leads us away from even starting to do something about it and protecting our societies from said Islamic extremism.

 

[LeMansAid]

Radical Islam will continue to try and take over the world. They've never stopped trying.

Radical Christianity might be slacking off a bit at the moment, but if the religion isn't as potentially dangerous as Islam, it's a closely run thing. Many would argue that your religion is just as readily corruptible, and corruptible to very heinous ends.

 

[Scaff]

Guys, you will keep going on in circles trying to justify Islam in which ever way you choose.
Best you read the Islamic sources of Muhammed. The hadiths www.sunnah.com
The last ten years of Muhammeds life was filled with violence among other things.
in Islam, Muhammed is the code of conduct for ALL muslims. Perhaps they were told only one side of Muhammed's life, and today, many cannot accept or believe the other side.

Radical Islam will continue to try and take over the world. They've never stopped trying.
It's fitting that Muhammed said he was made victorious through terror.

Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 52 :: Hadith 220
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand."

Yep because its not as if anyone has ever used any other religious text as an inspiration for violence or terror is it.

Oh and Muslims are not required to follow haddiths.

 

[DCP]

Radical Christianity might be slacking off a bit at the moment, but if the religion isn't as potentially dangerous as Islam, it's a closely run thing. Many would argue that your religion is just as readily corruptible, and corruptible to very heinous ends.

Again, Christianity is NOT a religion. If people decide to make it one, that's their free will. Christ didn't bring religion. He came to set everyone free, who wanted to be free. No where does Christ say we must kill the infidels or non believers. In fact He says the opposite, to love or enemies and pray for those who persecute us.
These religious Christians you talk off, please ask them if they have been born again, and baptised in the Spirit, and have they been slain in the Spirit of the Lord. If not, then you will have your answer.

@Scaff

Without the hadiths, how can muslims know their prophet is really a prophet?
Also, I just stated, that muslims have to follow muhammed as a code of conduct. How can they if they don't know about a life that muhammed lived?
It's like saying, Christians don't need to have the OT to follow Christ. Without the OT, how can we know it was Christ they were prophesying about?

 

[Scaff]

Again, Christianity is NOT a religion. If people decide to make it one, that's their free will. Christ didn't bring religion. He came to set everyone free, who wanted to be free. No where does Christ say we must kill the infidels or non believers. In fact He says the opposite, to love or enemies and pray for those who persecute us.
These religious Christians you talk off, please ask them if they have been born again, and baptised in the Spirit, and have they been slain in the Spirit of the Lord. If not, then you will have your answer.

Yes it is a religion. It operates in exactly the same way as every other religion.

You may want to try and set it apart as something more, but you are doing so based on no credible evidence at all.

@Scaff
Without the hadiths, how can muslims know their prophet is really a prophet?
Also, I just stated, that muslims have to follow muhammed as a code of conduct. How can they if they don't know about a life that muhammed lived?
It's like saying, Christians don't need to have the OT to follow Christ. Without the OT, how can we know it was Christ they were prophesying about?

You seem to be mixing up the Hadiths (commentary on the life of Mo) with the Tawrat, Zabur and Injil, they are very different things indeed.

In Islam the only part which is considered perfect is the Koran, as it was said to be dictated directly by Mo (much like the Bible is claimed to be the direct word of God and claimed to be perfect as a result - in reality neither of them are and both are full of contradictions that followers ignore).

The Hadith are the thoughts and commentary of Mo's followers and later scholars, and as such are not considered the word of God spoken through Mo at all, and in fact categories of Hadith exist called ḍaʿīf (weak), and mawḍūʿ (fabricated).

So no your are incorrect in claiming that Hadiths have to be followed and are considered 'gospel'.

 

[DCP]

Yes it is a religion. It operates in exactly the same way as every other religion.

You may want to try and set it apart as something more, but you are doing so based on no credible evidence at all.



You seem to be mixing up the Hadiths (commentary on the life of Mo) with the Tawrat, Zabur and Injil, they are very different things indeed.

In Islam the only part which is considered perfect is the Koran, as it was said to be dictated directly by Mo (much like the Bible is claimed to be the direct word of God and claimed to be perfect as a result - in reality neither of them are and both are full of contradictions that followers ignore).

The Hadith are the thoughts and commentary of Mo's followers and later scholars, and as such are not considered the word of God spoken through Mo at all, and in fact categories of Hadith exist called ḍaʿīf (weak), and mawḍūʿ (fabricated).

So no your are incorrect in claiming that Hadiths have to be followed and are considered 'gospel'.

yes, you are entitled to your opinion, like when I say atheism is also a religion.
Christianity you say is a religion because it is stacked up as one of many so called religions in this world.
I wouldn't expect you to know any different, since you don't know Christ personally. That is an open and personal invitation to you if you so choose it. Until then, you will always convince yourself that Christianity is a religion.

No I'm not mixing it up. Do you find the life of muhammed anywhere in the quran? Does the quran state how muhammed became a prophet? Is there anywhere in the quran were muhammed says that he himself is a prophet?
Also, the Injeel (Gospels) are supposedly corrupt by man, hence they reject it. They can't even find muhammed there, since how would they know if that was corrupted or not?

 

[Scaff]

yes, you are entitled to your opinion, like when I say atheism is also a religion.

So what is needed for something to qualify as a religion?

Christianity you say is a religion because it is stacked up as one of many so called religions in this world.
I wouldn't expect you to know any different, since you don't know Christ personally. That is an open and personal invitation to you if you so choose it. Until then, you will always convince yourself that Christianity is a religion.

So you assume I have not looked?

Rather arrogant of you.

May I ask how you you know Christ personally? Are you able to objectively demonstrate this as fact, or is it faith (you know as in religion).

No I'm not mixing it up. Do you find the life of muhammed anywhere in the quran? Does the quran state how muhammed became a prophet? Is there anywhere in the quran were muhammed says that he himself is a prophet?
Also, the Injeel (Gospels) are supposedly corrupt by man, hence they reject it. They can't even find muhammed there, since how would they know if that was corrupted or not?

They reject parts of them (oddly like Christians do with the bits they don't like), not all of them.

Oh and yes you will find Mo in the Koran.

 

[Dotini]

Oh and yes you will find Mo in the Koran.

I found Larry and Curly in Game of Thrones!

 

[DCP]

So what is needed for something to qualify as a religion?



So you assume I have not looked?

Rather arrogant of you.

May I ask how you you know Christ personally? Are you able to objectively demonstrate this as fact, or is it faith (you know as in religion).



They reject parts of them (oddly like Christians do with the bits they don't like), not all of them.

Oh and yes you will find Mo in the Koran.

I would say belief. Yes, it's a matter of believing in an uncaused universe, until proven wrong.

No, I'm not assuming you haven't looked, but I'm certain that when you did, your heart had other desires/distractions, hence missing the opportunity. Why I say this, here is my answer:

All that My Father gives Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, never reject anyone who follows Me].

So the problem is not God.

Personally I have been baptized in the Spirit. I have no fear of man, or what I say of God, that offends man, including Christians.
My desires have changed, from what I wanted for myself, to what I receive from the Lord everyday.
I put my family before me, compared to only thinking about myself.
I could never imagine myself having these kinds of conversations with strangers around the globe, yet the reason why I do it, is all because I care. It's not about me, but it's about Christ Jesus. I just hope that people would sincerely call on Him, and experience the true God.

You'll find Mo mentioned by name in the quran only 4 times. Jesus 93 times.
You'll never find Mo saying he is a prophet in there.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand."

Niccolo Machiavelli argued something very similar, and he was calling for the separation of church and state - a founding principle of Western democracy and something allegedly incompatible with Islam.

 

[Scaff]

I would say belief. Yes, it's a matter of believing in an uncaused universe, until proven wrong.

Then Christianity is a religion.

You also seem unaware that plenty of credible evidence exists to indicate a universe that wasn't created by a god (or gods) and none fro one that was. As such quite a bit of proof exists that you are simply ignoring.

I
No, I'm not assuming you haven't looked, but I'm certain that when you did, your heart had other desires/distractions, hence missing the opportunity. Why I say this, here is my answer:

All that My Father gives Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, never reject anyone who follows Me].

Assumptions again, very dangerous things.

I
So the problem is not God.

Or that God(s) doesn't/don't exist.

I
Personally I have been baptized in the Spirit. I have no fear of man, or what I say of God, that offends man, including Christians.
My desires have changed, from what I wanted for myself, to what I receive from the Lord everyday.
I put my family before me, compared to only thinking about myself.
I could never imagine myself having these kinds of conversations with strangers around the globe, yet the reason why I do it, is all because I care. It's not about me, but it's about Christ Jesus. I just hope that people would sincerely call on Him, and experience the true God.

Great. Now about you using the internet and people navigating by the stars?

I
You'll find Mo mentioned by name in the quran only 4 times. Jesus 93 times.
You'll never find Mo saying he is a prophet in there.

And yet you said he was never mentioned and he is referred to as a profit in the Koran as well.

047.002 But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.

The God in the Koran only directly communicates with prophets, as such he is clearly being described as a prophet here.

 

[Dotini]

Niccolo Machiavelli argued something very similar, and he was calling for the separation of church and state - a founding principle of Western democracy and something allegedly incompatible with Islam.

In fairness, Mo had visions, potentially from a demon, while Nic was beavering in service to a Prince.

 

[DCP]

Niccolo Machiavelli argued something very similar, and he was calling for the separation of church and state - a founding principle of Western democracy and something allegedly incompatible with Islam.

And who is he, much like who are the presidents and kings who have the same problem as any other man.
Sorry, but I have to keep saying it until someone gets it. Christians follow Christ, not man. Christ sets the example. Christ leads the way, not mortal fallible men.

The OT said, God is not a man that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent.
You'll know that according to the Bible, Jesus was sinless, and never repented. He, is who Christians follow.

@Scaff

Same like there is credible evidence of a Designer / God. See, round and round in circles it goes.
Is there proof of what happened before the big bang? Can you show me? No
I can't show you God, but I have told you how to find Him, simply by choice, and a sincere pursuing heart.

You didn't answer my question. I asked, show me where MO says he is a prophet in the quran.
Like when Jesus told the high Priest that He is the Son of Man.

I'm thrilled to see you singling out the god of the quran. Yes, that god spoke to muhammed through an angel. That god is limited and cannot come to earth, fellowship with his creation, and die and rise as a man in flesh. Muslims might be lead to believe it, but this god is not the same God of the Bible.

 

[Scaff]

And who is he, much like who are the presidents and kings who have the same problem as any other man.
Sorry, but I have to keep saying it until someone gets it. Christians follow Christ, not man. Christ sets the example. Christ leads the way, not mortal fallible men.

The OT said, God is not a man that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent.
You'll know that according to the Bible, Jesus was sinless, and never repented. He, is who Christians follow.

I think you will find that most people are aware of this claim.

The issue is that its just that, its a claim that is unsupported by any credible evidence.

Its requires you to have blind faith that it is true, and as such its as much a religion as every other religion (and its not even a particularly original one - what with rather important bits being borrowed from other, older religions).

 

[Dotini]

Its requires you to have blind faith that it is true, and as such its as much a religion as every other religion (and its not even a particularly original one - what with rather important bits being borrowed from other, older religions).

There is a point of view that finds a common source to all visionary religions, like beads on a string. That source is allegedly trying to guide man's destiny. Man, eternal rebel, fights back like the rock ape he is.

 

[DCP]

I think you will find that most people are aware of this claim.

The issue is that its just that, its a claim that is unsupported by any credible evidence.

Its requires you to have blind faith that it is true, and as such its as much a religion as every other religion (and its not even a particularly original one - what with rather important bits being borrowed from other, older religions).

Have you embraced it? How could you ever know what many Christians have, as well as non believers experienced before they chose to follow Christ?

It's before the big bang that requires blind faith. Actually much more faith that Christianity, because at least we had God come to earth, yet we had too much pride, and put Him on a cross 2000 years ago.
But 13 or 12 or 40 billion years ago, plus whatever before that. Hmmm.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Sorry, but I have to keep saying it until someone gets it.

Actually, you don't. Certainly not to me; I have no intention of "getting it", now or ever. Your god is no more or less valid than any other.

 

[DCP]

Actually, you don't. Certainly not to me; I have no intention of "getting it", now or ever. Your god is no more or less valid than any other.

I respect perfectly true responses as well, thanks.

 

[Dotini]

Your god is no more or less valid than any other.

Another way of saying equally valid. They may all be from the same source, but they are not all equal in results. Some are more successful versions of older designs. An evolution in religious belief commensurate with the evolution of man?

 

[Scaff]

Have you embraced it? How could you ever know what many Christians have, as well as non believers experienced before they chose to follow Christ?

You mean like you did with me?

It's before the big bang that requires blind faith. Actually much more faith that Christianity, because at least we had God come to earth, yet we had too much pride, and put Him on a cross 2000 years ago.
But 13 or 12 or 40 billion years ago, plus whatever before that. Hmmm.

Science quite readily acknowledges that we do not know what happened before the Big Bang, that's not blind faith (which would be to make something up and then refuse to change that view regardless of the evidence).

As for what happened after the Big Bang, well more evidence exists for that than does for the life of Jesus.

 

[DCP]

You mean like you did with me?



Science quite readily acknowledges that we do not know what happened before the Big Bang, that's not blind faith (which would be to make something up and then refuse to change that view regardless of the evidence).

As for what happened after the Big Bang, well more evidence exists for that than does for the life of Jesus.

Who is science? A few men who studied and claimed to know what they claim to know?
Nearly every nation and culture and religion has heard about Jesus, including satanists. Even the word evidence can be misused in these days of evil, wickedness and deception.

My question was addressed to you, not science. What do you believe happened before, or caused the big bang?
Is it not possible that there just might by an All Powerful, All knowing God outside of time and space and the realm of laws and physics, No?

Tell me, do you think man on earth tells other men of all things, or are they hiding some things? Anything extraordinary.

 

[Scaff]

Who is science? A few men who studied and claimed to know what they claim to know?
Nearly every nation and culture and religion has heard about Jesus, including satanists. Even the word evidence can be misused in these days of evil, wickedness and deception.

My question was addressed to you, not science. What do you believe happened before, or caused the big bang?
Is it not possible that there just might by an All Powerful, All knowing God outside of time and space and the realm of laws and physics, No?

Tell me, do you think man on earth tells other men of all things, or are they hiding some things? Anything extraordinary.

Science.

You simply do not know what it means.

Evidence (to a scientific standard).

You don't know what that means either.

Define both please.

 

[DCP]

Science.

You simply do not know what it means.

Evidence (to a scientific standard).

You don't know what that means either.

Define both please.

That which we can use our five senses to observe and test, right?
So how can we observe something we cannot see in space, not test in space at the same time?
Any case, off topic. You missed my question about man.

 

[Scaff]

That which we can use our five senses to observe and test, right?
So how can we observe something we cannot see in space, not test in space at the same time?

Now aside from the fact we have many more than five sense, no.

Science simply means knowledge, and evidence to a scientific standard is not just what we can observe and test.

Science is not fixed, its is (and must) be subject to rigorous review, correction and include new evidence to he point of abandoning or changing based on what is now known. The scientific method is core to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Evidence has to be falsifiable (God isn't), robustly tested via controlled methods, repeatable and robustly peer reviewed.

Belief has nothing at all to do with any stage of it.

Oh and it never ends, its always open to new evidence and from that review and revision.

Any case, off topic. You missed my question about man.

I didn't miss it, its pointless until you actually understand what science and evidence really mean.

Now I don't actually expect you to bother to read this, but it covers what we know about how the universe formed (based on evidence to a scientific standard and the current, very robust, theory).

http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html

 

[sumbrownkid]

Guys, you will keep going on in circles trying to justify Islam in which ever way you choose.
Best you read the Islamic sources of Muhammed. The hadiths www.sunnah.com
The last ten years of Muhammeds life was filled with violence among other things.
in Islam, Muhammed is the code of conduct for ALL muslims. Perhaps they were told only one side of Muhammed's life, and today, many cannot accept or believe the other side.

Radical Islam will continue to try and take over the world. They've never stopped trying.
It's fitting that Muhammed said he was made victorious through terror.

Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 52 :: Hadith 220
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand."

Funny how The prophet is always the violent one when he was the one who was forced on the defensive from the get go. It took his uncle begging him to drop plying for a diplomatic solution when the Makkans demanded his head and that of his followers. War was brought to him and his first Muslims.

And even when he did fight he did not condone fighting everyone and anything, no he demanded his soldiers must contain themselves. Why is it stories that are verifiable come out that even his enemies trusted him more than their own allies?

Let's forget earlier that I mentioned the Quran also had background history to it. Let's just blindly say the prophet was a war mongeror because the jihadists who spout any inane Hadith or sunnah even though many of them have been proven to be false or not verifiable.

Like I said earlier about haddith or sunnah: Take it with a grain of salt.

Can't wait to see how I'm an apologist now.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

I'm not sure Mohammad was always defensive my friend....

 

[ToyGTone]

@ECGadget and all other Muslims out there, can you help me please on this? I'm not some kind of scholar Imam who know everything about Islam and Sharia Laws.

So by now, we probably all heard about how Adultery and Rape are treated the exact same in Islam. Like both sides gets lashed and such.

So out of curiosity, I asked my parents and one of my brother (which I did at different times so I could ask them separately and to make sure) about the laws for these acts. The answers were...well.. The adultery part were mostly the same compared to how people on the Internet said. The rape part however was different. I first asked my dad then my mum and brother just to make sure (It felt wrong to talk about something like this with my family but I had to) and well they said the same as my dad did.

It had me believing that it's the government fault at misleading some rape crimes as adultery. That or one of the couple lied about being raped so she gets away but it's unlikely.

Since i'm away from home, currently in bosnia and herzegovina, i want to ask some Muslims over here about the law for that just to see if my family is correct or not.

 

[ECGadget]

@ECGadget and all other Muslims out there, can you help me please on this? I'm not some kind of scholar Imam who know everything about Islam and Sharia Laws.

So by now, we probably all heard about how Adultery and Rape are treated the exact same in Islam. Like both sides gets lashed and such.

So out of curiosity, I asked my parents and one of my brother (which I did at different times so I could ask them separately and to make sure) about the laws for these acts. The answers were...well.. The adultery part were mostly the same compared to how people on the Internet said. The rape part however was different. I first asked my dad then my mum and brother just to make sure (It felt wrong to talk about something like this with my family but I had to) and well they said the same as my dad did.

It had me believing that it's the government fault at misleading some rape crimes as adultery. That or one of the couple lied about being raped so she gets away but it's unlikely.

Since i'm away from home, currently in bosnia and herzegovina, i want to ask some Muslims over here about the law for that just to see if my family is correct or not.

It is a brilliant question, since Adultery and Rape are of course two very different things.
The first thing to note is the punishments - all punishments actually - are at the discretion of the judge IF all conditions are met without any doubt. This is where I see the first issue with many countries who impose the laws. They do not seem to wait for all conditions to be undeniably met before handing out top level punishments. This is against Islam to start with.

Back to rape. Why does it seem to be treated the same, i.e. the victim is punished too. Is this right? In short terms. No. This is a crime in itself.

The maximum punishment for Adultery is a punishment in itself. The maximum punishment for rape is capital punishment for the one who assaulted. And the victim is not to be punished. Rape in Islam is classed as a form of terrorism.

What is proof of rape then?
- The victim first claims they were raped.
- If anyone witnessed it, they must come forward (course this is rarely the case)
- If the assaulter confesses
- Any physical evidence through scientific means

Which is of course the same was what we have here. You claim you were raped, the police get proof and the assaulter is punished. Under NO circumstances is the victim to be punished in this. That is Islam.