Islam - What's your view on it?

[FoRiZon]

Interesting article.
http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-2524-im-liberal-ex-muslim-this-my-life.html

Agreed on most parts.

 

[ToyGTone]

I know this is more of a cultural thing but most western believe it's due to religion.
Anyways...
I find it ironic when people complained about KSA not allowing women to drive yet when Saudi Arabia announced that they are going to allow it, they all went "meh, they still hate women anyways and would abuse them"

Right away, King Salman also announced an anti women harassment law in Saudi Arabia yet no one even cared about this. They jailed some bunch of religious sheiks/imams yet same barely any reaction.

Talking about hypocrisy.

 

[Liquid]

It's a start.

However, in all seriousness and out of curiosity:

I know this is more of a cultural thing but most western believe it's due to religion.

Where is the line drawn to these things being a cultural issue and being a religious issue? I don't immediately know, given that many countries in the Arabic world, like Saudi Arabia, are both confessional states and theocratic states. This influences the society and by extension the culture.

 

[Sage Ages]

Right away, King Salman also announced an anti women harassment law in Saudi Arabia yet no one even cared about this. They jailed some bunch of religious sheiks/imams yet same barely any reaction.

Honestly never heard about this before. Wonder if it’s just not getting any news coverage or what.

 

[ToyGTone]

Honestly never heard about this before. Wonder if it’s just not getting any news coverage or what.

I first heard it on several sub reddits and several comments...
Well...here's a Google search, not sure if it's actually true or not.
https://www.google.com/search?q=kin...droid-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

It's a start.

However, in all seriousness and out of curiosity:



Where is the line drawn to these things being a cultural issue and being a religious issue? I don't immediately know, given that many countries in the Arabic world, like Saudi Arabia, are both confessional states and theocratic states. This influences the society and by extension the culture.

From what I heard, the only reason why they banned women driving is because of "fear of women getting harassed on the road" and "It might ruin the clitoris of females" or something like that.

For some reasons, whatever a new technology arrives to people in Saudi Arabia, a lot of them tends to have some weird conspiracy theories and some even starts spreading some rumors on how bad X thing is. They did this with Cellphones, the Internet, video games, several TV shows and plenty other stuff.

Anyways, a large part of problems (from outsider) in KSA tend to be religious, Political or Econmical. I'll have a hard time pointing out exactly what's religious and one that's simply cultural. Like you said.

 

[AdamA998]

I know this is more of a cultural thing but most western believe it's due to religion.
Anyways...
I find it ironic when people complained about KSA not allowing women to drive yet when Saudi Arabia announced that they are going to allow it, they all went "meh, they still hate women anyways and would abuse them"

Right away, King Salman also announced an anti women harassment law in Saudi Arabia yet no one even cared about this. They jailed some bunch of religious sheiks/imams yet same barely any reaction.

Talking about hypocrisy.

My advice for you is you shouldn't be looking for a reaction from the outside world, do what you deem fit for your people and country. After all, all this reform is directed for your society and your people know best how to approach reform within restraints of the culture/religion. Whether this be your country in Qatar or Saudi's in Saudi.

 

[ToyGTone]

My advice for you is you shouldn't looking for a reaction from the outside world, do what you deem fit for your people and country. After all, all this reform is directed for your society and your people know best how to approach reform within restraints of the culture/religion. Whether this be your country in Qatar or Saudi's in Saudi.

I'm actually from Bahrain but close enough
The whole women driving ban was only a saudi thing since it's been allowed in the rest of the gulf states for ages. Our country is a lot more "relaxed" in laws wise compared to Saudi Arabia but there's still a long way to go.

 

[AdamA998]

I'm actually from Bahrain but close enough
The whole women driving ban was only a saudi thing since it's been allowed in the rest of the gulf states for ages. Our country is a lot more "relaxed" in laws wise compared to Saudi Arabia but there's still a long way to go.

Oh darn, I keep mixing up the flags!

Yeah the driving ban was odd and had no source in religion, really. So everyone's glad MBS banned it. Bahrain is definitely considered a really fun place in the ME, a lot of people I know flock from Saudi Arabia or UAE to vacation there. People here would be surprised.

 

[Lord Kacperov]

Islam is like Christianity, but far worse. Christianity is now only a belief, a belief that there is a bigger being that created us, and more. That is how religions should work like. But Islam isn’t exactly like that. Islam is also, in more than a dozen countries, the law of the land through Sharia Law, which is a barbaric, racist, sexist and homophobic law. It supports the punishment of gay people just for being homosexual, the stoning of women, the killing of “infidels” or non-believers, pedophilia, gender segregation, and more. All of these can be found in the Quran.

And unlike Christianity, Islam hasn’t reformed yet. And despite the massive differences in values and political views, it is the darling of the West, more specifically of the (far) left. It’s also worrying that over 60% of muslims support some kind of Sharia Law (according to the Pew Research Center:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ndings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/?amp=1). And the EU isn’t worried about taking hundreds of thousands of these people.

That is why I support Poland and Hungary’s anti-immigration policies.

 

[Scaff]

Islam is like Christianity, but far worse. Christianity is now only a belief, a belief that there is a bigger being that created us, and more. That is how religions should work like. But Islam isn’t exactly like that. Islam is also, in more than a dozen countries, the law of the land through Sharia Law, which is a barbaric, racist, sexist and homophobic law. It supports the punishment of gay people just for being homosexual, the stoning of women, the killing of “infidels” or non-believers, pedophilia, gender segregation, and more. All of these can be found in the Quran.

And unlike Christianity, Islam hasn’t reformed yet. And despite the massive differences in values and political views, it is the darling of the West, more specifically of the (far) left. It’s also worrying that over 60% of muslims support some kind of Sharia Law (according to the Pew Research Center:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ndings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/?amp=1). And the EU isn’t worried about taking hundreds of thousands of these people.

That is why I support Poland and Hungary’s anti-immigration policies.

Good job no Christian country has every tried to impose religious based laws that do the same thing then......

Oh wait.

 

[Lord Kacperov]

Good job no Christian country has every tried to impose religious based laws that do the same thing then......

Oh wait.

Actually, I mentioned that in the first paragraph. I mentioned that in the second sentence.

 

[Scaff]

Whoops. I knew I forgot something.

You may want to read the entire thread as you seem to be about to re tread some very tired and innacurate ground.

 

[Lord Kacperov]

You may want to read the entire thread as you seem to be about to re tread some very tired and innacurate ground.

I don’t want to read through 141 pages though, I don’t have enough time for that. Or at least, not in one go.

 

[TexRex]

Actually, I mentioned that in the first paragraph. I mentioned that in the second sentence.

What?

Christianity is now only a belief, a belief that there is a bigger being that created us, and more.

Am I missing something? Is that not the second sentence? Or is the "and more" the mentioning you refer to?

 

[Scaff]

Actually, I mentioned that in the first paragraph. I mentioned that in the second sentence.

You actually think it's stopped.

Take a guess which group in which country just block a proposed law to ban child brides?

What about women's rights in some European countries?

Trans rights and murders in Catholic South American countries?

Russia's use of religion to target women's rights and gay rights?

The LARA?

As for 'things in the Koran', the Bible supports the exact same thing.

Followers of both are capable of using religion as a tool for good or bad.

 

[Lord Kacperov]

You actually think it's stopped.

Take a guess which group in which country just block a proposed law to ban child brides?

I don’t know, but I have a bad feeling that that might either be Poland, Hungary or the US.

 

[Scaff]

I don’t know, but I have a bad feeling that that might either be Poland, Hungary or the US.

The US, in which some states still have no minimum age for marriage.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_States

You may want to read the rest of the, very incomplete, edit.

 

[Dotini]

Islam is like Christianity, but far worse. Christianity is now only a belief, a belief that there is a bigger being that created us, and more. That is how religions should work like. But Islam isn’t exactly like that. Islam is also, in more than a dozen countries, the law of the land through Sharia Law, which is a barbaric, racist, sexist and homophobic law. It supports the punishment of gay people just for being homosexual, the stoning of women, the killing of “infidels” or non-believers, pedophilia, gender segregation, and more. All of these can be found in the Quran.

And unlike Christianity, Islam hasn’t reformed yet. And despite the massive differences in values and political views, it is the darling of the West, more specifically of the (far) left. It’s also worrying that over 60% of muslims support some kind of Sharia Law (according to the Pew Research Center:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ndings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/?amp=1). And the EU isn’t worried about taking hundreds of thousands of these people.

That is why I support Poland and Hungary’s anti-immigration policies.

Even accepting all that, we are constrained to work with Islamic countries, as some have our oil under their ground, some control strategic global crossroads, and others are military allies. And all have conquered their lands fair and square, are seated at the United Nations, and have rights to be respected. We cannot go abroad in search of dragons to slay. As for the far left supporting unreformed Islam (like ISIS rebels over the westernized Assad), well, maybe one from-the-top-down authoritarian supporting another trumps allowing too much freedom and liberty from the ground up.

 

[Lord Kacperov]

What?


Am I missing something? Is that not the second sentence? Or is the "and more" the mentioning you refer to?

With the “and more” stuff, I meant that Christianity is also about believing in Jesus. I meant that Christianity is just a belief that doesn’t affect the law or politics that much anymore, because the Church lost its power in a lot of countries, though not necessarily everywhere.

Now as for Islam, what is the general truth about it? I was apparently using “tired and inaccurate information”.

 

[TexRex]

I meant that Christianity is just a belief that doesn’t affect the law or politics that much anymore, because the Church lost its power in a lot of countries, though not necessarily everywhere.

Or, ya know, anywhere...as seems to be the case presented in examples provided above.

 

[Scaff]

With the “and more” stuff, I meant that Christianity is also about believing in Jesus. I meant that Christianity is just a belief that doesn’t affect the law or politics that much anymore, because the Church lost its power in a lot of countries, though not necessarily everywhere.

Except that's not the case at all.

It does still very much affect the law and politics of a large number of countries, as numerous examples have already shown, and more can certainly be provided should you need them.

Now as for Islam, what is the general truth about it? I was apparently using “tired and inaccurate information”.

The closest you are going to get to a general truth for any religion is that the majority believe because they are brought up to believe and little more than that, its social conditioning.

Within that some will be more ardent believers, but be of little impact to others, for a very, very, very small minority of all religions they will use it to target others.

That's as true for Christianity, Judaism, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists as it is for Muslims.

What you however seem to have done is bought into some nationalist, right-wing propaganda that only one faith actually does this, which is demonstrably not the case, as has been shown over and over again in this very thread.

 

[ECGadget]

It has been quite a while since I have posted on this thread at all. But I think there are a few things that perhaps need to be cleared up somewhat. Again, before I say anything I always must admit that I am no super scholar in terms of Islam, so there may be discussions here that I am unable to continue due to lack of knowledge.

As @ToyGTone quite rightly has said, there is this problem of culture vs religion, and not knowing what is what from an outside perspective. I can go further than that and argue that even from an inside perspective there are problems in knowing which is which, too. An example of this is of course the driving laws in Saudi Arabia. A lot of people thought, and still think, that this was a religious issue and that women are of a lower status than men in the religion of Islam. This is of course not their fault, because that is what they see. If I were a total outsider looking in I would be disgusted at the faith as I see it, but instead I am not disgusted at the faith but rather disappointed in those who claim to uphold the faith. To highlight how odd and wrong this whole ban in the first place was, I'll say something that I believe I have said before.

The Prophet Muhammad, may peace be upon him, was happily found to race his wife on camels. Not only was his wife Aisha one of the smartest women in Islam, she also rode camels (so no difference to a car) but even raced them. Nobody ever has heard of Islam going about making that forbidden, and thus the basis for Saudi to ban women driving was not to be found in religion at all, because there was nothing wrong with women using a mode of transportation to get around. Similarly, there is no basis in Islam for women to be second class citizens. In fact, whilst the world was in a dark age concerning women, Islam had women freely owning houses, plantations, businesses, livestock and the like, with nothing stopping them or any ill will towards them. Culture unfortunately changed this, and it is taking far too long for this to be broken amongst Muslims.

@Lord Kacperov, I am more than happy to discuss some points of Islam with you, and of course I respect what you believe and see of the religion because quite frankly, if I were to see the abomination that is ISIS, and the way some cultures follow Islam and then treat other people, animals, property and such like dirt, I would be led to the same conclusions as you.

 

[Imari]

I meant that Christianity is just a belief that doesn’t affect the law or politics that much anymore...

Maybe Belgium is different, but at least in English speaking countries you'll still find that most of the culture, law and politics is based around Christianity. Less vocally so than it once was perhaps, but a pig in a wig is still a pig.

 

[Scaff]

Maybe Belgium is different, but at least in English speaking countries you'll still find that most of the culture, law and politics is based around Christianity. Less vocally so than it once was perhaps, but a pig in a wig is still a pig.

Here in the UK it's still the state religion, still has automatic seats and voting rights in the House of Lords and is still lead by the Monarch.

To claim it's not a part of politics and law is nonsense, and we are one of the milder examples.

The likes of Ireland (north and south of the border), Spain, Italy, Portugal are all still far more wedded to it than us. As exampled by the DUPs influence from Northern Ireland on UK politics, and they are a bat **** crazy creationist party who do all they can to hold back women's and gay rights (no same sex marriage or abortion in NI, how religiously progressive).

That's without that theocratic city state guarded by heavily armed mercenaries called the Vatican.

 

[Mr Tree]

Maybe Belgium is different, but at least in English speaking countries you'll still find that most of the culture, law and politics is based around Christianity. Less vocally so than it once was perhaps, but a pig in a wig is still a pig.

As a belgian it's a bit weird. We still have (a very limited number of) people who'd like to see gay rights reversed. Thing is it's hard to call it a religious thing. I notice this most with the more conservative people and I think this is an important diffrence.

While the old idea's do come from religion 'culture' has started calling them they're own. And conservatives like to keep things as they are/where so they've kept religious ideas.
Important is they dot justify this through religion. It's not that gays shouldn't be able to get maried because 'muh bible'. It's because marrage has always been between a man and a woman. (My parents are those people and they don't go to church at all)

This is why I find it harder as americans or englishmen to not single out Islam. Luckily I have tge internet and have the means to discover this is only a bias and other religions are as bad for society.

My issue with muslims in our majority secular society is a minority, yet i think a significantly large part of their community, would like it if some form of sharia would be imposed. This is from converations so it's pure anecdotal and I hope I get some points that counter my bias here
My issue here is most of those people refuse to state exactly what they mean with this.

If yoy ask specific questions most refuse to answer and if they answer it's indirect. (Which is just dishonnest) example: should be infidels be killed? Most who'd like some form of sharia law refuse to answer this question. And if they do it's with the worst statement ever. 'it's not for me to judge but for allah' which is not an answer to said question.

Again I'd like to stress a minority! They're just vocal enough to be a nuissance.

Before I get labeled a xenofobe. I have very similar issues with jehova's withnesses in belgium. Or with certain conservatives (the ones with as only argument 'it's always been this way') or with the catholic church, or with ....

@Scaff dud you guys ever have or still have sharia-courts in the uk. I heard they existed for the people who went there out of free choice and they aren't stateoperated. Is this true?

 

[Scaff]

As a belgian it's a bit weird. We still have (a very limited number of) people who'd like to see gay rights reversed. Thing is it's hard to call it a religious thing. I notice this most with the more conservative people and I think this is an important diffrence.

While the old idea's do come from religion 'culture' has started calling them they're own. And conservatives like to keep things as they are/where so they've kept religious ideas.
Important is they dot justify this through religion. It's not that gays shouldn't be able to get maried because 'muh bible'. It's because marrage has always been between a man and a woman. (My parents are those people and they don't go to church at all)

This is why I find it harder as americans or englishmen to not single out Islam. Luckily I have tge internet and have the means to discover this is only a bias and other religions are as bad for society.

My issue with muslims in our majority secular society is a minority, yet i think a significantly large part of their community, would like it if some form of sharia would be imposed. This is from converations so it's pure anecdotal and I hope I get some points that counter my bias here
My issue here is most of those people refuse to state exactly what they mean with this.

If yoy ask specific questions most refuse to answer and if they answer it's indirect. (Which is just dishonnest) example: should be infidels be killed? Most who'd like some form of sharia law refuse to answer this question. And if they do it's with the worst statement ever. 'it's not for me to judge but for allah' which is not an answer to said question.

Again I'd like to stress a minority! They're just vocal enough to be a nuissance.

Before I get labeled a xenofobe. I have very similar issues with jehova's withnesses in belgium. Or with certain conservatives (the ones with as only argument 'it's always been this way') or with the catholic church, or with ....

@Scaff dud you guys ever have or still have sharia-courts in the uk. I heard they existed for the people who went there out of free choice and they aren't stateoperated. Is this true?

We have Sharia courts in the UK in the same way that we have Christian and Jewish ones (and likely other faiths as well).

http://www.lawandreligionuk.com/201...-in-the-united-kingdom-and-the-united-states/
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/sharia-la...din-court-example-muslim-legal-system-1540381

They exist to settle religious disagreements and to some degree contact laws as it pertains to religion.

They hold no weight in regard to English law in either criminal or civil matters.

Now that's not to say that some have no attempted to abuse that situation (across all faiths), but they are not a threat in any real way to English civil or criminal law. Nor is Sharia a self contained, agreed upon set-in stone legal system. It has as many variations as sects within Islam...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#Branches_of_law

...as such the term Sharia Court is so vague as to be useless to any real discussion. Yet plenty of people would like you to think that a Sharia count in the UK (which has no legal authority at all) is the exact same thing as the Sharia Courts of Saudi or the former Taliban ones in Afghanistan.

What you do need to keep in mind however is that this.....

"Important is they dot justify this through religion. It's not that gays shouldn't be able to get maried because 'muh bible'. It's because marrage has always been between a man and a woman. (My parents are those people and they don't go to church at all)"

....is effectively cultural Christianity at work. This desire to keep the status quo, is one that is based on laws, customers and norms that are very much established by Christianity (what source do you think they used to get that definition of marriage).

Now the minority you refer to also exist in every faith, including the cultural one of Europe, as such attempting to paint the whole based on that is what can only be described as absurd, and worse of all is exactly what far right nationalists want to happen.

 

[ECGadget]

As a belgian it's a bit weird. We still have (a very limited number of) people who'd like to see gay rights reversed. Thing is it's hard to call it a religious thing. I notice this most with the more conservative people and I think this is an important diffrence.

While the old idea's do come from religion 'culture' has started calling them they're own. And conservatives like to keep things as they are/where so they've kept religious ideas.
Important is they dot justify this through religion. It's not that gays shouldn't be able to get maried because 'muh bible'. It's because marrage has always been between a man and a woman. (My parents are those people and they don't go to church at all)

This is why I find it harder as americans or englishmen to not single out Islam. Luckily I have tge internet and have the means to discover this is only a bias and other religions are as bad for society.

My issue with muslims in our majority secular society is a minority, yet i think a significantly large part of their community, would like it if some form of sharia would be imposed. This is from converations so it's pure anecdotal and I hope I get some points that counter my bias here
My issue here is most of those people refuse to state exactly what they mean with this.

If yoy ask specific questions most refuse to answer and if they answer it's indirect. (Which is just dishonnest) example: should be infidels be killed? Most who'd like some form of sharia law refuse to answer this question. And if they do it's with the worst statement ever. 'it's not for me to judge but for allah' which is not an answer to said question.

Again I'd like to stress a minority! They're just vocal enough to be a nuissance.

Before I get labeled a xenofobe. I have very similar issues with jehova's withnesses in belgium. Or with certain conservatives (the ones with as only argument 'it's always been this way') or with the catholic church, or with ....

@Scaff dud you guys ever have or still have sharia-courts in the uk. I heard they existed for the people who went there out of free choice and they aren't stateoperated. Is this true?

I like the questions posed in this post. Let me see what I can do to answer them. Also, I would not class you as a xenophobe in any way from that post. Your questions are based on what you see and what you wish to learn, far from a xenophobe.

Let me focus on the pure basic form of shariah law, or some aspects of it. Shariah is not, as often portrayed, a lawset that deals with punishments of mankind willy nilly. Shariah is actually split in to five sections, covering everything from punishments (as focused upon) to transactions between a shopkeeper and a customer, to how to behave in public. In essence, the majority of Shariah law is about being a good human being. There is an element of absolute justice through it all, yes. But that core rule of Shariah is pretty much the rule of every single civilised human being. We all want justice for a murder, or for a theft, or a robbery. There is no focus on a religion here when it comes to justice. A just King or Queen or President or Prime Minister would be carrying out part of the Shariah in his or her everyday life. Police Officers persue justice; that is Shariah, too. Signing a written contract between businesses, or supplying a receipt of goods received or work carried out is Shariah. Helping a trapped animal is Shariah, as is helping a neighbour bring thier shopping in.
So now the question that does come up is what is all this about Shariah courts and the like? Well, this is not what people make it out to be. A Shariah court is merely an instrument that allows an individual to carry out certain aspects of faith according to Islam. Example, the traditional marriage ceremony, or writing a will. That is what a Shariah court does.

Aside from that, Shariah states very clearly that the law of the land is the law to be obeyed. If you are going against the law of the land (provided it is just) then you are not following Shariah. Furthermore, Shariah law in any form does NOT apply to anybody who is not a Muslim, ever. So a non-Muslim is not bound by a law governing marriage, or prayer - if we were to look at the spiritual side of Shariah. But of course if you look at the laws of many lands across the world, you will see Shariah actually applies heavily in many, particularly with regards to contracts or criminal activity. That is pretty much it.

And if you take away the spiritual side, i.e. the whole aspect of prayer and connection with God, it boils down to basic human and animal rights. Right to property, life, safety, education, religious freedom, etc. Hopefully that gives you a bit more understanding.

And to answer that last part about the killing of infidels. The answer is found in both the Qur'an and Hadith.
In the Qur'an it clearly says to fight those who oppose you, yes - In very specific circumstances. But it also makes it clear that you must only fight them when they fight you, not the other way around. And the instant an enemy stops fighting a Muslim, they must also cease. Otherwise the Muslims are in error. Similarly, a Muslim is not allowed to fight in anger at all. An example of this would be of a companion of the Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) who went by the name of Ali. In a battle he was faced with an enemy who spat at him. Ali lowered his sword and told the enemy he cannot fight him anymore. When asked why, he replied that initially he was fighting because he was defending his faith and way of life, but when he had be subject to the spitting he became angry, and his motivation for fighting was now anger and revenge, and that no longer made it just or right to fight that particular person. That is also Shariah by the way. But I digress.
Now, the Hadith states the following, emphasising the Qur'an instructing the very fine limits on fighting and killing.
"Whoever takes a life unlawfully, it is as though he has killed all of mankind. Whoever saves a life, it is as though he has saved all of mankind"
So from this, what possible excuse could any decent Muslim come up with for killing anybody who has done nothing at all? There is no excuse.


A totally unrelated note: no idea why my font has changed.

 

[novcze]

@ECGadget and how many muslims share your version of islam? ... as unorganized as islam is one have to wonder if this understanding of Qur'an and Hadith is something common for all sects or only yours particular sect.

 

[Scaff]

@ECGadget and how many muslims share your version of islam? ... as unorganized as islam is one have to wonder if this understanding of Qur'an and Hadith is something common for all sects or only yours particular sect.

From my personal experience it's the norm by quite a long way.

 

[TexRex]

A totally unrelated note: no idea why my font has changed.

I blame the Times New Roman Catholics.