Islam - What's your view on it?

[Scaff]

I'm just replying to the belgian part of your post. I'm a flemish belgian, and the article you qouted is unnuanced at best, deliberatly misleading at worst.

There currently is a party running for election in the city elections. They did say they want to make belgium a sharia state while not breaking the constitution. (Don't see how that's possible but anyhow)

The segregation on the bus is said to be a measure against harrasment, but not a single belgian believes this. And there is public outrage about pretty much anything this party proposes, they currently can't get descent numbers unless they cleverly conveye their message something one of our rightwing parties succeeded at. (Acting moderate while being rather readical)

Molenbeek does have it's issues but it's not as grave as we should bomb it and.neither is it this single european jihadist hub.
You might not be avle to read the article from 'de morgen' but it clearly stated we found out a lot of those orginisations where found due to belgium waking up after 22march and they are combating this wahabi/salafist narrative. So it's less of a concern to me as it shows we are able to find the people who intend harm.

Also on flemish side a lot of parties want to ban the party ISLAM as they seemingly do not accept universal rights such as equality between male and female.

And to be honnest it's quite insulting to hear people who know jack about belgium to refer to arricles that say belgium needs to wake up against radical islam not knowing the efforts taken against it.

Or as some idiot (that got a lot of voted from even.bigger idiots) once said 'Brussels is a hellhole' yeah that was an accurate statement said no one ever....

Not that you don't have the right to but it does show only bias is important and facts apparently arent.

I had to use google translate on the articles in question and was able to gather the same basic understanding, that they are a fringe political outfit with contradictory claims about policy and aims (bonkers, but not exactly unique), which the Gatestone article exaggerate to a massive degree. Its good to have it confirmed however, so many thanks.

what is surprising however is that having already been shown that a Gatestone source was nonsense, @HenrySwanson then went and did the same by again failing to bother to check a different Gatestone article!

 

[Imari]

I dunno, I mean you'd have to say that none of the prominent European scientists would have materialised without Islam and....that's a pretty bold statement.

Are you familiar with Isaac Newton saying "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants"?

It means that you can be the greatest genius the world has ever seen, but realistically the work of any one man is a small addition to the massive body of work that led up to it. In the case of the Golden Age of Islam, not only are they largely responsible for preserving the scientific knowledge of the Greeks (who really were very advanced in many ways) they also built upon that foundation significantly. A lot of things that remain fairly fundamental to science were discovered during this time. Arguably, the scientific method itself.

So yes, without the Golden Age of Islam none of the prominent European scientists would have materialised. You might have had a Galileo or a Newton or an Einstein, but they wouldn't have had the scientific background to build their great contributions upon. They'd have done great things, no doubt, but we don't end up with our current society by chopping 600 years of progressive research and discovery out of history. Unless you think that things in the 1400s were largely similar to today. Like I said, cavorting druids, death by stoning and dung for dinner.

Do you have any rebuttal or is your criticism purely based on my statement being bold?

 

[Dotini]

Lucky Muslims in China receive free education.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-says-internment-camps-free-vocational-training-041630032.html

 

[Johnnypenso]

Lucky Muslims in China receive free education.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-says-internment-camps-free-vocational-training-041630032.html

Maybe it's just me but this story does not seem to be getting much attention in the world press. It's an egregious violation of human rights on a massive scale. I know it's China and information is tightly controlled but it seems to be flying under the radar.
Update from BBC:

 

[baldgye]

Lucky Muslims in China receive free education.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-says-internment-camps-free-vocational-training-041630032.html

BBC also picked up on this

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/China_hidden_camps

 

[HenrySwanson]

You will not call The Prophet a paedophile you silly woman

Are you familiar with Isaac Newton saying "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants"?

It means that you can be the greatest genius the world has ever seen, but realistically the work of any one man is a small addition to the massive body of work that led up to it. In the case of the Golden Age of Islam, not only are they largely responsible for preserving the scientific knowledge of the Greeks (who really were very advanced in many ways) they also built upon that foundation significantly. A lot of things that remain fairly fundamental to science were discovered during this time. Arguably, the scientific method itself.

So yes, without the Golden Age of Islam none of the prominent European scientists would have materialised. You might have had a Galileo or a Newton or an Einstein, but they wouldn't have had the scientific background to build their great contributions upon. They'd have done great things, no doubt, but we don't end up with our current society by chopping 600 years of progressive research and discovery out of history. Unless you think that things in the 1400s were largely similar to today. Like I said, cavorting druids, death by stoning and dung for dinner.

Do you have any rebuttal or is your criticism purely based on my statement being bold?

Really?

I dunno, that seems to mean that the Scientific Revolution would never have happened and Europeans would never have built up modern science using the scientific method.

 

[Johnnypenso]

You will not call The Prophet a paedophile you silly woman


Really?

I dunno, that seems to mean that the Scientific Revolution would never have happened and Europeans would never have built up modern science using the scientific method.

That link leads to a download.

 

[UKMikey]

Really?

I dunno, that seems to mean that the Scientific Revolution would never have happened and Europeans would never have built up modern science using the scientific method.

Yes, really.

The "scientific method" doesn't involve throwing out centuries of ancient scientific knowledge and reinventing the wheel from scratch.

 

[HenrySwanson]

That link leads to a download.

Oops

There is a DM article on it now:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...g-Prophet-Mohammed-paedophile-ECHR-rules.html

The download was to the original source.

Yes, really.

The "scientific method" doesn't involve throwing out centuries of ancient scientific knowledge and reinventing the wheel from scratch.

That's the preservation of others ideas.

Sure there was some ingenuity, particularly in the field of maths but substantial contributions? I'm not convinced.

Neither was Dawkins (with regards to contributions) when he said that the whole of the Islamic world had produced less Nobel winners in science than Trinity College Cambridge....

One college..
In one institution..
In one country..

However, I generally am a centrist (I think, I don't even know anymore) so I will acknowledge that the most popular surname for a doctor in the UK is Khan - an Islamic name (although it should be remembered that Asian surnames are less diverse than the indigenous - Patel is second for example)

 

[Imari]

Really?

I dunno, that seems to mean that the Scientific Revolution would never have happened and Europeans would never have built up modern science using the scientific method.

Yes, basically.

The Scientific Revolution might have happened eventually, but it might not have happened in Europe and it definitely wouldn't have happened when it did.

Modern science almost certainly comes around eventually, or something like it. But when and how is likely to be completely different.

That's the preservation of others ideas.

Sure there was some ingenuity, particularly in the field of maths but substantial contributions? I'm not convinced.

If you're actually interested:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_in_medieval_Islam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_science_and_engineering_in_the_Islamic_world

But if you don't want a lot of reading, then it's easiest to cut to the chase:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Revolution#Ancient_and_medieval_background

The Scientific Revolution was built upon the foundation of ancient Greek learning and science in the Middle Ages, as it had been elaborated and further developed by Roman/Byzantine science and medieval Islamic science. - Grant, E. (1996). The Foundations of Modern Science in the Middle Ages: Their Religious, Institutional, and Intellectual Contexts. pp. 29–30, 42–7.

I mean, it's pretty inarguable that the Scientific Revolution and modern science in general owed and owes a lot to the Greeks. Right? If you disagree, I think we can stop right here.

But if that's so, then the same can be argued for all the scientific development between the Greeks and the Scientific Revolution. All that stuff contributed, if it hadn't been there then either the people involved in the Scientific Revolution would have had to repeat that work for themselves (and it's not as simple as going out behind the shed for a couple of days and knocking out relationships between velocity, acceleration and force).

I mean, check out this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham

Sometimes called "the father of modern optics", he made significant contributions to the principles of optics and visual perception in particular, his most influential work being his Kitāb al-Manāẓir (كتاب المناظر, "Book of Optics"), written during 1011–1021, which survived in the Latin edition. A polymath, he also wrote on philosophy, theology and medicine.

Ibn al-Haytham was the first to explain that vision occurs when light bounces on an object and then is directed to one's eyes. He was also an early proponent of the concept that a hypothesis must be proved by experiments based on confirmable procedures or mathematical evidence—hence understanding the scientific method five centuries before Renaissance scientists.

His main work, Kitab al-Manazir (Book of Optics), was known in the Muslim world mainly, but not exclusively, through the thirteenth-century commentary by Kamāl al-Dīn al-Fārisī, the Tanqīḥ al-Manāẓir li-dhawī l-abṣār wa l-baṣā'ir. In al-Andalus, it was used by the eleventh-century prince of the Banu Hud dynasty of Zaragossa and author of an important mathematical text, al-Mu'taman ibn Hūd. A Latin translation of the Kitab al-Manazir was made probably in the late twelfth or early thirteenth century. This translation was read by and greatly influenced a number of scholars in Christian Europe including: Roger Bacon, Robert Grosseteste, Witelo, Giambattista della Porta, Leonardo Da Vinci, Galileo Galilei, Christiaan Huygens, René Descartes, and Johannes Kepler.

I think if you write a book on optics that is influencing Da Vinci, Galileo, Huygens and Kepler, you're probably doing all right. And there are dozens of similarly influential thinkers in that part of the world at around that period in time. I'm not going to dig them out for you one by one. If you're truly curious, I've given you enough information here for you to find some entry points. If you're not curious then you can't be convinced by reason anyway.

Neither was Dawkins (with regards to contributions) when he said that the whole of the Islamic world had produced less Nobel winners in science than Trinity College Cambridge....

One college..
In one institution..
In one country..

And as long as you're cherry picking your time period to only during the existence of the Nobel Prize, sure. And ignoring the inherent bias that the Nobel committees has had towards western and European work for most of their existence.

How many great thinkers did Trinity put out between 800 and 1400AD? None? Does that mean that Trinity isn't an excellent college? Of course not. That would be silly.

Dawkins is a smart guy, but he's also prone to saying inflammatory things purely for the sake of being inflammatory. And hey, when I go to look up that statement it turns out that there's some more that you omitted...

All the world's Muslims have fewer Nobel Prizes than Trinity College, Cambridge. They did great things in the Middle Ages, though.

Oh my. That sounds awfully like the point that you were arguing against. Did you seriously not get far enough through his tweet to read the second sentence?

 

[FoRiZon]

Dawkins is a smart guy, but he's also prone to saying inflammatory things purely for the sake of being inflammatory. And hey, when I go to look up that statement it turns out that there's some more that you omitted...





Oh my. That sounds awfully like the point that you were arguing against. Did you seriously not get far enough through his tweet to read the second sentence?

For people like Dawkins you would think that he is anti religion, not anti Muslim.

Ironically he could be less inflammatory that way.

 

[Carbonox]

That's some freakout over the lack of a death penalty.

I'd think that for people willing to go out there and smash things up, there'd be a lot of far more worthwhile hills to die on...

 

[Dennisch]

They're a special bunch.

 

[PocketZeven]

The same way I view all other religions. It is illogical to follow rules that arent adapted to modern times. People, society, laws etc. all evolve, except apparantly the written words in the bible and koran.

 

[UKMikey]

That's some freakout over the lack of a death penalty.

I'd think that for people willing to go out there and smash things up, there'd be a lot of far more worthwhile hills to die on...

This is disgusting behaviour.

Those sick ****ers.

I'm glad all Muslims don't behave in such a murderous fashion.

 

[SestoScudo]

Man that mob mentality is so prominent in places like Pakistan, India and Afghanistan.

An Afghan Muslim woman was accused of burning the Quran by a Sufi Leader because both got into a argument with him. The sufi religious leader was conning followers by selling charms that gives forgiveness to his followers. So she spoke out against this practice so the Sufi leader called on a lynch mob and beaten her to death.

Funny thing is this whole ordeal in Pakistan began as she drank from a well because she is from a certain caste they did not allow her to drink. She said something which insulted the Prophet but she actually denied saying such a thing.

 

[McLaren]

Asia was charged with insulting the prophet Muhammad after she drank from a cup of water before passing it to Muslim fruit-pickers.

All that protesting over this?

 

[Imari]

All that protesting over this?

I had to read a number of articles because I was sure there was something I was missing. I'm still pretty sure that's the case, because even killing someone for spitting in your cup of water seems pretty nuts.

 

[SestoScudo]

I had to read a number of articles because I was sure there was something I was missing. I'm still pretty sure that's the case, because even killing someone for spitting in your cup of water seems pretty nuts.

Caste system in Pakistan is pretty strong too the woman was from a certain caste.

Irony is she said one of the people called her a christian b word but also said Jesus is a bastard.

That is actually blasphemy itself because Jesus is a prophet in Islam you cant blaspheme any prophets of God.

 

[Imari]

Caste system in Pakistan is pretty strong too the woman was from a certain caste.

Well, I mean, if you're going to kill a peasant for essentially just being a peasant, then I reckon just say that. None of this beating around the bush with the cup of water.

It's still insane, but being killed for being the wrong colour/gender/caste/whatever is basically a tradition amongst humans. It's far less surprising and far more understandable than this bollocks about a cup.

 

[SestoScudo]

Well, I mean, if you're going to kill a peasant for essentially just being a peasant, then I reckon just say that. None of this beating around the bush with the cup of water.

It's still insane, but being killed for being the wrong colour/gender/caste/whatever is basically a tradition amongst humans. It's far less surprising and far more understandable than this bollocks about a cup.

India and Pakistan have long been trying to get rid of the caste system but are failing to do it.

We gotta remember these systems have been in place for 1000 years or so.

In Pakistan higher castes do not want lower castes being being buried in the same graveyard as the higher ones.

No such thing as caste system in Islam various Muslim rulers actually tried to get rid of it but they failed so instead they incorporated various castes into their rule hence why the higher castes were given the best positions.

Whole ordeal is ridiculous if somebody blasphemes and asks for forgiveness let the person go.

Pakistan takes its religion and culture too seriously. The country is a very divided one im not Pakistani I do have a lot of Pakistani friends they love their country but they also critise on what happens.

The problem is a lot of religious leaders in Pakistan do have power they even con their followers to give them money.

 

[zzz_pt]

Another amazing progressive move by an islamic state:


Saad al-Anzi, who heads the Kuwait International Literary Festival, told AFP the information ministry had banned 948 books including Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamazov, a novel set in 19th century Russia that explores morality, free will and the existence of God.

Dostoyevsky joins a growing list of writers banned in the relatively moderate Gulf state, where a conservative trend in politics and society is rising.

More than 4,000 books have been blacklisted by Kuwait's information ministry over the past five years, including Victor Hugo's The Hunchback of Notre-Dame and One Hundred Years of Solitude by Colombian author Gabriel Garcia Marquez -- Gabo to his fans.

All titles on show at the 43rd edition of Kuwait's book fair, which runs through November 24, were screened in advance by a censorship committee as per Kuwaiti regulations.

The committee works under a 2006 law on "press and publications", which outlines a string of punishable offences for publishers of both literature and journalism.

Offences include insulting Islam or Kuwait's judiciary, threatening national security, "inciting unrest" and committing "immoral" acts.

Activists took to the streets of the capital twice in September to protest against rising censorship.

Through the 1970s and 1980s, Kuwait was a regional publishing hub, home to the high-brow, pan-Arab cultural journal "Al-Arabi" and a string of popular scientific and literary books.

But in recent years, religious conservatives and tribal leaders have gained ground in parliament, paralleled by changing societal trends. Kuwait is the only Gulf state with elected lawmakers.

source

 

[UKMikey]

Not sure whether this belongs on the Islam thread but a number of people have been arrested in Morocco in connection with the gruesome murders of two Scandinavian women in Morocco last week.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...o-scandinavian-women-in-morocco-idUSKCN1OO00R

Moroccan authorities have described the suspects as "lone wolves" with no formal connection to IS.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Not sure whether this belongs on the Islam thread but a number of people have been arrested in Morocco in connection with the gruesome murders of two Scandinavian women in Morocco last week.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...o-scandinavian-women-in-morocco-idUSKCN1OO00R

Moroccan authorities have described the suspects as "lone wolves" with no formal connection to IS.

No formal connection but....

The four main suspects, aged between 25 and 30 years, had pledged allegiance to Islamic State in a video made three days before the bodies were found, but without agreeing this in advance with any foreign group, police and domestic intelligence spokesman Boubker Sabik said on the state 2M TV channel on Sunday.

Also:
The alleged ringleader of the brutal slayings, 25-year-old Abdesamad Ejjoud, was arrested on Tuesday, authorities said. Abdelhak Khiam, the head of Morocco’s central office for judicial investigation said Ejjoud had “formed a kind of cell that discussed how to carry out a terrorist act inside the kingdom… targeting the security services or foreign tourists.”

 

[UKMikey]

No formal connection but....

The four main suspects, aged between 25 and 30 years, had pledged allegiance to Islamic State in a video made three days before the bodies were found, but without agreeing this in advance with any foreign group, police and domestic intelligence spokesman Boubker Sabik said on the state 2M TV channel on Sunday.

That sounds pretty much like an independent cell to me. Has anyone from Islamic State come forward and pledged support for their actions?

 

[Xavier2342]

It is religion that gets a lot of bad press. Like any other religion or belief there are extreme ends and there's a median. Besides, most Muslims I have interacted with in the US and abroad have never shown any form hate towards me and I have nothing against them.

 

[ECGadget]

No Muslim should ever have anything against somebody in any fashion like that. Nor should they hate a person at all. Maybe hate what they do, but not the person. A key part of Islam is protection. A Muslim is (among other things) an individual from whose hands and tongue another individual is safe.

 

[UKMikey]

Testimony such as the above is why I have a hard time believing people like Sam Harris when they say that one in five Muslims world wide is an extremist bent on global jihad. I know to them that makes me a regressive leftist for not believing them, but I'm prepared to live with that.

To me the Moroccan murderers are just psychopathic criminals and not the vanguard of a worldwide movement to wipe out non-Muslims.

 

[zzz_pt]

It is religion that gets a lot of bad press. Like any other religion or belief there are extreme ends and there's a median. Besides, most Muslims I have interacted with in the US and abroad have never shown any form hate towards me and I have nothing against them.

I think there's a difference between countries where Muslims are a minority or have been "westernized" and countries where they are a majority and have political power.

I believe most people are not hateful in simple daily interactions, anywhere. But to see how tolerant they are you have to do something that tests their tolerance.

If you're atheist or gay, try to wear a T-shirt saying "Allah is fiction" or "I'm gay" in a majority Muslim country. Or publish a book criticizing Islam.

In western countries you can do that, you can publish books criticizing any ideology or religion, you can wear whatever you want (not the swastika in some European countries).

Testimony such as the above is why I have a hard time believing people like Sam Harris when they say that one in five Muslims world wide is an extremist bent on global jihad. I know to them that makes me a regressive leftist for not believing them, but I'm prepared to live with that.

To me the Moroccan murderers are just psychopathic criminals and not the vanguard of a worldwide movement to wipe out non-Muslims.

Sam didn't say that.

He cited studies who pointed to 20%, including Jihadists and Islamists. Jihadists being the ones who act, and Islamists the ones who support their actions.

Also, how do you distinguish between psychopathic criminals and jihadists? That's one of the problems in all of this. People refusing to believe the words of these lunatics when they say they do what they do in the name of Allah and when the holy book they follow can be interpreted to support it (kill infidels).

Islam needs peaceful muslims to push for a reformation.

@ECGadget I believe most Muslims are peaceful people. The problem is not the peaceful people though. Is the people who want Sharia, who want Jews to be wiped out, who think women should be treated as cattle, who think critics of Islam and Mohammed should be killed, etc. Those are the problem and most of their victims are peaceful Muslims.

 

[Imari]

Testimony such as the above is why I have a hard time believing people like Sam Harris when they say that one in five Muslims world wide is an extremist bent on global jihad. I know to them that makes me a regressive leftist for not believing them, but I'm prepared to live with that.

I think that if the sort of assessment of Muslims that makes that seem reasonable was applied to Christians, you'd end up with a lot more that 20% either personally dedicated to or supportive of "global domination".

At which point one begins to question whether this is a problem with humanity in general, or actually not a problem but just something to chastigate an enemy for while hoping that the populace doesn't notice that they very much do this themselves.