Islam - What's your view on it?

  • Thread starter SalmanBH
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What's the myth you are referring to?
Religion (all of them).



Look, I don't want to put you in the difficult situation of having to moderate the discussion (or **** storm) that would ensue by opening that article for debate. So you really don't have to answer that question. In any case, almost all possible viewpoints have been covered in its comments section unless the ones less favourable to the author's views have been moderated by the newspaper.
My ability to moderate and my ability to post have never come into conflict and nothing in this thread comes even close to that.


The only reason I brought up the article was to highlight the extent to which the media will go to push agendas that restrict liberalism in the first place. It's even more ironic when women that possibly may be mothers write such articles and 'recommend' it.
I believe that I posted quite clearly that this was part of a tit for tat between two opposing sides, this particular piece however is not limited to a single woman ranting (as most of the far-rights articles do) but rather extends the same discussion that those who study Islam have come to (i.e. if this person did exist we almost certainly don't know exactly how old she was - age wasn't really counted in the same way - my mother-in-law who is in her seventies doesn't know exactly how old she is as records were not kept accurately in India when she was born).


If you have a problem with people in the 'far right' that is fine. It doesn't mean you have to lose your moral compass just to spite them.
Moral compass has not been lost at all, I'm using the article as exactly what it is, a counter-point to claims by an opposing group that focuses on the point that group wants to make. Does it contain bias? Yes of course it does, pretty much any time a person puts pen to paper or speaks the result contains bias.

I do however consider the bias contained within it to be on a smaller scale that the logic the far-right use, which goes along the lines of "Mohammed married a nine year old so that makes all Muslim men pedophiles". Now even if you take the first part of that at face value (which no sensible person would - its part of a myth that has been rewritten many times), that doesn't mean that it can then be extended to every follower of the Religion.

And do consider that you did ask why articles of this nature have started to appear and all I have do is answer your question.
 
^Yeah I don't think that show would go over too well with Muslims in the States.

Speaking of cartoons, South Park actually depicted the Prophet, albeit with fire powers, in the episode: Super Best Friends in the year 2001.

Interestingly enough, it took Jihadists around 10 years to find out that the Prophet was depicted, and the classic "Hey if you don't withdraw the episode, we'll try to hurt you, even though the possibility of that happening is less than that of Grandma winning the lottery."

So Netflix and other internet streaming services along with Comedy Central pulled it from their line up in appeasement, which I believe is cowardly to begin with.

The episode itself was humorous, and actually depicted him in a positive light fighting the statue of Abraham Lincoln. There was hardly any controversy about it back then oddly enough, but hey I guess it's convenient to suddenly rage about something that didn't really mean any offense at all.

Now what lesson can we learn from this boys and girls?

The world is full of dumb asses.

Dumb asses in the Western world for choosing appeasement (You can't appease someone filled with religious hatred) and dumb asses in the Muslim world for not realizing that even if people draw the Prophet to ridicule and mock his message, it still doesn't change the fact that he is a figure that no doubt changed the course of history in the region and indeed the world. 1.6 billion followers and 1400 years of history is not going to be undone by a few fellows who at least have the balls to say what they think.

What's even more aggravating is that some of my fellow Muslim brethren are ignorant in the fact that the Prophet was depicted many times over the years. Dante's Inferno anyone? Or how about Persian/Arabic art that showed various instances of the Prophet traveling to Heaven and giving sermons to his congregation?

The banality of all this is that this type of stuff ain't new. It just took on new forms. I really doubt the Prophet himself would feel that insulted as Muslims do today.
 
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^Yeah I don't think that show would go over too well with Muslims in the States.

Just to confirm, because I can't tell whether you've "got it" or not, the Onion is a satirical news site, and that program isn't actually real. But it is taking the mick out of the recent situations where completely harmless things like cartoons are causing a massive fuss with people who can't take a joke.
 
Religion (all of them).

My ability to moderate and my ability to post have never come into conflict and nothing in this thread comes even close to that.

Really? At the risk of a banhammer or a lock (oh the irony), let me state this,

Your tone has been consistently harsh and especially condescending towards me even though I have never attacked Islam or muslims in this thread. However, people trying to defend radicals and Islam by bringing up every known atrocity against muslims (and lying and making wild guesses to boot) while at the same time using the harshest of languages get a light "I fully understand you feel passionate about this" rap on the wrist.

Furthermore, when I said in one of my posts that any criticism of Islam is greeted with attacks against other books, religions or groups you took that very personally (by assuming that I'm accusing you) and produced an astonishing essay that essentially went into detail about the Old Testament thereby ignoring every statement about comparisons of religions I have been making in this thread. You will never improve the mentality of a people if you keep giving them excuses to be violent. Just because a verse exists in one religion about the need for violence it doesn't absolve the existence of another verse calling for the killing, conversion or subjugation of infidels in another religion. You also seem to imagine that I hold the Old Testament as a guide on how to lead one's life and Abraham as the ultimate man. Couldn't be farther from the truth.

All of this compounded with an increasing tendency to club my views with those of the far-right. So should my conclusion be that you regard anyone with criticisms of Islam as a right-wing bigot? Even if those criticisms and reservations are presented calmly without making assumptions about all muslims?

I believe that I posted quite clearly that this was part of a tit for tat between two opposing sides, this particular piece however is not limited to a single woman ranting (as most of the far-rights articles do) but rather extends the same discussion that those who study Islam have come to (i.e. if this person did exist we almost certainly don't know exactly how old she was - age wasn't really counted in the same way - my mother-in-law who is in her seventies doesn't know exactly how old she is as records were not kept accurately in India when she was born).

Tit for tat arguments don't call for countering a ridiculous argument with another ridiculous argument. We'd still be on the playground if everyone thought like that.

Moral compass has not been lost at all, I'm using the article as exactly what it is, a counter-point to claims by an opposing group that focuses on the point that group wants to make. Does it contain bias? Yes of course it does, pretty much any time a person puts pen to paper or speaks the result contains bias.

I do however consider the bias contained within it to be on a smaller scale that the logic the far-right use, which goes along the lines of "Mohammed married a nine year old so that makes all Muslim men pedophiles". Now even if you take the first part of that at face value (which no sensible person would - its part of a myth that has been rewritten many times), that doesn't mean that it can then be extended to every follower of the Religion.

And do consider that you did ask why articles of this nature have started to appear and all I have do is answer your question.

And yet once again, you justify posting that article because some guys are making enormous generalizations. Which you assume I make too.

If you like I can edit all of my posts in this thread to say 'Islam is the ultimate religion of peace'.

Let's not have a discussion at all.
 
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Just to confirm, because I can't tell whether you've "got it" or not, the Onion is a satirical news site, and that program isn't actually real. But it is taking the mick out of the recent situations where completely harmless things like cartoons are causing a massive fuss with people who can't take a joke.

Oh I know it was fake.:)

The whole South Park thing is not though unfortunately, and that depiction was the farthest thing from mockery.
 
Really? At the risk of a banhammer or a lock (oh the irony), let me state this,

Your tone has been consistently harsh and especially condescending towards me even though I have never attacked Islam or muslims in this thread. However, people trying to defend radicals and Islam by bringing up every known atrocity against muslims (and lying and making wild guesses to boot) while at the same time using the harshest of languages get a light "I fully understand you feel passionate about this" rap on the wrist.
He got a two day ban for it.



Furthermore, when I said in one of my posts that any criticism of Islam is greeted with attacks against other books, religions or groups you took that very personally (by assuming that I'm accusing you) and produced an astonishing essay that essentially went into detail about the Old Testament thereby ignoring every statement about comparisons of religions I have been making in this thread. You will never improve the mentality of a people if you keep giving them excuses to be violent. Just because a verse exists in one religion about the need for violence it doesn't absolve the existence of another verse calling for the killing, conversion or subjugation of infidels in another religion. You also seem to imagine that I hold the Old Testament as a guide on how to lead one's life and Abraham as the ultimate man. Couldn't be farther from the truth.
Actually I have the exact same issue with all religion, which is why I bring up other religions when attempts (by anyone) are made by anyone to state that one is worse than the other in this regard.





All of this compounded with an increasing tendency to club my views with those of the far-right. So should my conclusion be that you regard anyone with criticisms of Islam as a right-wing bigot? Even if those criticisms and reservations are presented calmly without making assumptions about all muslims?


Tit for tat arguments don't call for countering a ridiculous argument with another ridiculous argument. We'd still be on the playground if everyone thought like that.



And yet once again, you justify posting that article because some guys are making enormous generalizations. Which you assume I make too.

If you like I can edit all of my posts in this thread to say 'Islam is the ultimate religion of peace'.

Let's not have a discussion at all.
I've certainly not grouped you in with anyone, you posted an article and asked why ones of that nature had become more common in the news and I explained why.

That you have taken that to mean I group you with the far-right would have a lot more to do with how you view your own feelings on this than anything I have said (as I'm not aware of you posting an opinion either way on it).
 
I'm trying imagine what would happen if a UK government minister came out with a statement like this:

"I will pay whoever kills the makers of this video $100,000. If someone else makes other similar blasphemous material in the future, I will also pay his killers $100,000."

"I call upon these countries and say: Yes, freedom of expression is there, but you should make laws regarding people insulting our Prophet. And if you don't, then the future will be extremely dangerous."

I know the UK government wouldn't realease a statement saying this;

His Awami National Party (ANP) party, which is part of the ruling coalition government in Pakistan, said this was a personal statement, not a party policy. He, however, added that it would not take any action against him.

:crazy:


 
I'm trying imagine what would happen if a UK government minister came out with a statement like this:





I know the UK government wouldn't realease a statement saying this;



:crazy:

Add in that the fatwa against Salman Rushdie has been pushed to the front again (it was of course never fully lifted)...

http://www.theweek.co.uk/people-new...ues-fatwa-salman-rushdie-film-protests-spread

....which is equally as daft as the above (and a lot longer running).

One slightly better piece of new is that the militia responsible for the attack on the US embassy have been forced out of the base they had by locals unhappy with the actions of the militia.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...lam-ahmad-bilour_n_1905949.html?utm_hp_ref=uk
 
So an Islamic theocracy [Iran] is again calling for the death of somebody who wrote something they don't like?

Tell me again about this "religion of peace" thing... something's not adding up here.
 
These kind of events (the embassies under attack) are the reason why this religion is so frowned upon. I don't think the United States would attack any country just because they made a video making fun of Jesus. (I think that's what happened, maybe I misunderstood what I heard)

Islam is serious business.
 
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These kind of events (the embassies under attack) are the reason why this religion is so frowned upon. I don't think the United States would attack any country just because they made a video making fun of Jesus. (I think that's what happened, maybe I misunderstood what I heard)

Islam is serious business.

The US embassy was almost certainly not attacked because of the film (plenty of other attacks can be put to that issue), but rather was a pre-planned Al-Qaeda attack that would have happened anyway,

The analogy that the US would attack an embassy is also misleading, Libya didn't attack the US embassy (Libyan security forces did however secure the compound and ensure the loss of life was not greater) an Al-Qaeda militia cell did. The same cell that was then driven out of its base by the local population.

That violent acts are most certainly carried out in the name of Islam, its quite miss-leading to then paint every Muslim as supporting those acts or even being involved in similar acts. The Libyan security forces who helped save embassy staff and the locals who forced the Al-Qaeda militia out are also Muslim.

Thw whole situation is not as black and white as it may appear.
 
BobK
So an Islamic theocracy [Iran] is again calling for the death of somebody who wrote something they don't like?

Tell me again about this "religion of peace" thing... something's not adding up here.

Are you being serious right now?
 
So an Islamic theocracy [Iran] is again calling for the death of somebody who wrote something they don't like?

Tell me again about this "religion of peace" thing... something's not adding up here.

So America supported Anti-Communist dictators during the Cold War?

Tell me again about this "Great supporter of Democracy" thing...Something's not adding up.:)

Hypocrisy is everywhere bro.
 
You can question it all you want, but Islam has serious problems regarding radicals. And an idiot in a powerful position giving out money for a murder doesn't help either.
 
You can question it all you want, but Islam has serious problems regarding radicals. And an idiot in a powerful position giving out money for a murder doesn't help either.

True, and don't worry we're getting on it. Like those folks who took down that Islamists HQ in Libya?

That said, this is Iran we are talking here. They issued Fatwas on stupid crap. This isn't anything new.

Once again it's Iran. Need I say more?
 
Dennisch
You can question it all you want, but Islam has serious problems regarding radicals. And an idiot in a powerful position giving out money for a murder doesn't help either.

Substitute Islam for Iran, Libya, or whatever war-torn middle eastern country you care to mention.
 
Substitute Islam for Iran, Libya, or whatever war-torn middle eastern country you care to mention.

Why? It's all in the name of 'Islam'. Not Iran, Libya or any other country. The majority of muslims should take an example of the Libyans that took that HQ down. Fight the radicals, not the other religions or 'free' world.
 
The majority of Muslims do oppose those retards Dennisch. You don't see it because it happens behind the doors of Mosques, homes, and in the minds of Muslims.

People just need to stop being pusses about radical Islam. Especially in the West.

North Korea kept threatening that they have nukes, but wait these bozos in the middle east that hurt more of their own people than the few of the "infidels" they mean to target deserve our attention more.

Iran always talks full of crap anyway, so take whatever they say with a grain of salt. That fatwa on Rushdie is as empty as my soda can.
 
The majority of Muslims do oppose those retards Dennisch. You don't see it because it happens behind the doors of Mosques, homes, and in the minds of Muslims.

It's not so much opposition as zero tolerance needed to control the extremists. Completely denouncing them, cutting off funding when possible - you can bet some sects are funded by larger areas of the religion - and positive action to turn around the image of the religion.

Islam isn't the only religion guilty of being seen to be doing very little - the same can equally be said about pedophiles in the Catholic Church. They seem to get little more than a slap on the wrist from the wider church or the Pope, and and further action left to the laws of whatever country they're abusing kids in. It shouldn't get that far - it should be curtailed swiftly and harshly, just as radical Islamists need to be swiftly cut off.

In the case of Islam, it might help if even peaceful Muslims didn't seem to overreact so much to any opposition to their religion. Some members on this forum are evidence enough of that - I can't remember who it was, but whoever made a massive fuss about a flippant comment by Famine a few weeks back. Want to know why your religion has the "image" it does? Losing it like that, that's why.
 
No, the image mostly stem from the few who were dumb enough to strap bombs to themselves and make a meat party of it.

The few peaceful who do overreact take the issue to heart too much without logically thinking it through. Now the financiers of the guys that are willing to blow themselves have to be brought to justice as well, and I'll agree with you on that.

I'll suggest by starting with the Saudi royal family.

Edit: Wait which image are you referring to here, that Islam being overly aggressive, or the one that makes Muslims think they are always the victims?

In any case, both images are stupid.
 
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In any case, both images are stupid.

Both, but right or wrong, stereotypes wouldn't exist with no reason. I don't personally think all Muslims are like that (frankly, as with any religion, I'm basically fine with it as long as it's kept well away from me), but I can absolutely understand why people do think that.

Case in point: The aforementioned massive overreaction at an off-the-cuff comment that Famine made a while back about something looking like Muhammad. Wasn't inflammatory, wasn't offensive, wasn't a piss-take, yet someone still took it upon themselves to interpret it as all three - a classic example of playing the victim. And this is just a videogames forum. It's not an isolated example, in the wider world.
 
To me, person can say whatever they want about the Prophet, and at the of the day I wouldn't really be bothered by it. If the Prophet himself can be ridiculed in his day, but yet be able to shrug it off and continue his work, then those Muslims who take great offense at his mockery need to learn that aspect of him.
 
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To me, person can say whatever they want about the Prophet, and in the of the day I wouldn't really be bothered by it. If the Prophet himself can be ridiculed in his day, but yet be able to shrug it off and continue his work, then those Muslims who take great offense at his mockery need to learn that aspect of him.

Posts like this make me wish we still had the rep system.
 

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