Islam - What's your view on it?

[TenEightyOne]

This is true, but often when it comes to interpretation of the books the fundamentalists are more correct than most of us give credit. The well-behaved members of the religion who gloss over the rough passages in their holy books and re-interpret based on modern values often do not have the most solid of arguments.

You could argue an equal case on either side of that argument, moderate or fundamentalist. If you see the bible in its many centuries of creation as a text for social instruction then it's designed to be a text for its times, whenever they may be. Jesus's teachings (supposedly) ameliorate a millenium of the Torah into his "modern" times, ergot his lessons in his own times are moderate and anti-fundamentalist.

It seems clear (to me) that those who stand by fundamentalist interpretations of their religious texts aren't reading the scholars' messages properly and are allowing themselves to be led by questionable literal authority rather than true progressive morality.

 

[Danoff]

You could argue an equal case on either side of that argument, moderate or fundamentalist. If you see the bible in its many centuries of creation as a text for social instruction then it's designed to be a text for its times, whenever they may be. Jesus's teachings (supposedly) ameliorate a millenium of the Torah into his "modern" times, ergot his lessons in his own times are moderate and anti-fundamentalist.

It seems clear (to me) that those who stand by fundamentalist interpretations of their religious texts aren't reading the scholars' messages properly and are allowing themselves to be led by questionable literal authority rather than true progressive morality.

Here's a concrete example:

 

[mustafur]

-Finally at least something is happening even if it probably is meaningless.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/in-an-u...ebuke-china-for-its-mass-detention-of-uighurs

 

[TexRex]

Detractors of Islam sure do like to invoke the Sharia law bogeyman, but is Islam really the problem? Religious zealotry runs rampant in the absence of an entity to operate as a check against it, and while I'd absolutely consider the more brutal practices associated with Sharia law--those practices to which detractors constantly refer--emblematic of zealotry, it isn't defined by those practices and proponents of Sharia can [and regularly do] condemn those practices.

Indeed, the other religions that detractors like to cite as a basis for comparison to Islam haven't always been (and they really aren't now) sugar and spice and everything nice, so what happened to [kind of] drive similar practices out of favor?

Of course the absence of a check against zealotry isn't a situation unique to "Islamic countries", and even in the so-called land of the free you have government basing prohibitions--those including but by no means limited to that which regulate and restrict what an individual can with to their own body--on religious belief.

 

[UKMikey]

Detractors of Islam sure do like to invoke the Sharia law bogeyman, but is Islam really the problem? Religious zealotry runs rampant in the absence of an entity to operate as a check against it, and while I'd absolutely consider the more brutal practices associated with Sharia law--those practices to which detractors constantly refer--emblematic of zealotry, it isn't defined by those practices and proponents of Sharia can [and regularly do] condemn those practices.

Indeed, the other religions that detractors like to cite as a basis for comparison to Islam haven't always been (and they really aren't now) sugar and spice and everything nice, so what happened to [kind of] drive similar practices out of favor?

Of course the absence of a check against zealotry isn't a situation unique to "Islamic countries", and even in the so-called land of the free you have government basing prohibitions--those including but by no means limited to that which regulate and restrict what an individual can with to their own body--on religious belief.

Detractors of Islam also like to talk about taqiyya whenever a Muslim appears to be saying something reasonable and inclusive.

I'm not going to apologise for any kind of theocracy but seem to remember moderate Muslims arguing that any Sharia courts in the UK would be no more contradictory to the rule of British law than our batei din would be. Of course they could be lying, but so could anybody.

 

[TexRex]

Detractors of Islam also like to talk about taqqiya whenever a Muslim appears to be saying something reasonable and inclusive.

I'm not gonna lie, I had to look that one up as I was previously unfamiliar, but when I did look it up, I found this gem:

Though...they spelled "woke" wrong.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Equally he could have chosen not to make that comment as "I'm not a homophobe but gay sex is a sin" is a contradictory statement.

Why is that homophobic? And why are the Muslims who believe it homophobic?

I'd have to question the methodology of the poll as more up to date studies don't bear out anywhere near the same results. Does one cherrypicked poll by itself prove anything?

Firstly, that article links to a review of polls (by Ipsos Mori) that says that "There are a lot of similarities between the views of Muslims and the general public", and then doesn't give any examples on opinions towards homosexuality, among other contentious issues. They don't report this finding, from Ipsos Mori for example:

But most (71%) say they have no sympathy with young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria, although one in twenty (5%) say they have “a lot of sympathy”, and 25% of Muslim women say they have at least some sympathy.

Secondly, the "100% of British Muslims sampled found zero tolerance towards homosexual acts" was a Gallup poll and not the ICM one referenced in the article.

Thirdly, it talks about homosexuality itself being illegal, and quotes "around 1/3 of Muslims believing this (even though the ICM poll has 1/2)" and then compares this to Christian views on homosexuality and legality. Problem is the link doesn't back up the claim, and in no part of it are Christians asked whether they believe homosexuality should be legal.

Finally, if we look at what the article is concluding, it is saying that when Muslims are left in their own communities with other Muslims they tend to express more "unsavoury" beliefs

Christians most persecuted in the world? Where did you get that from? You mean in history or right now? Every religion gets persecuted. The only way that number is correct is because Christianity being the largest religion.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48146305
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...he-worlds-most-persecuted-people-9630774.html
https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2...-persecuted-for-their-faith-report-finds.aspx

Surely if it was just a case of Christians being the largest religious group, then Christian inspired violence should be higher than Islamic inspired violence too....

 

[HenrySwanson]

Sorry mods, double post.

 

[UKMikey]

Why is that homophobic? And why are the Muslims who believe it homophobic?

Because it asserts that simply by being born gay you are sinning against their God unless you elect to stay celibate all your life.

Firstly, that article links to a review of polls (by Ipsos Mori) that says that "There are a lot of similarities between the views of Muslims and the general public", and then doesn't give any examples on opinions towards homosexuality, among other contentious issues.

What do you want them to say? Here's an except from the survey the article links to.

Social attitudes
Muslims tend to have more conservative attitudes towards gender roles and homosexuality than the rest of the public, although many of these views were more widely shared by the British public as a whole not long ago. A majority (52%) of Muslims disagree that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, although attitudes among young Muslims are somewhat more liberal (18% of all Muslims but 28% of those aged 18-24 think that it should). Close to half of Muslim men and a third of Muslim women agree that “Wives should always obey their husbands”.

Aren't these the same attitudes the article compares to those of conservative Christians?

Secondly, the "100% of British Muslims sampled found zero tolerance towards homosexual acts" was a Gallup poll and not the ICM one referenced in the article.

The Gallup Coexist Index 2009? In what way does that make it more accurate than more up to date polls? Is it because the later article didn't mention it by name when it said...?

Many of the previous commercial polls about British Muslims, like this ICM survey for Channel 4 or this Survation survey for the Sun, have used problematic sampling techniques

I'm not sure that constitutes an endorsal of the methodology used by Gallup nine years ago.

Thirdly, it talks about homosexuality itself being illegal, and quotes "around 1/3 of Muslims believing this (even though the ICM poll has 1/2)" and then compares this to Christian views on homosexuality and legality. Problem is the link doesn't back up the claim, and in no part of it are Christians asked whether they believe homosexuality should be legal.

The article links to this report:

http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/attitudes-towards-gay-rights/

That looks like a third of surveyed Christians disagreeing with same sex marriage to me. The report goes onto say that even if the respondents in question thought homosexuality should be legal, they shouldn't be allowed to be their neighbours/teachers/adopters of children or have equal opportunities. I don't see how different these views are from those expressed by older Muslims in the Ipsos Mori report.

Finally, if we look at what the article is concluding, it is saying that when Muslims are left in their own communities with other Muslims they tend to express more "unsavoury" beliefs.

I'm not sure it's concluding anything of the sort. The report found older people held more conservative views wherever they were surveyed.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Because it asserts that simply by being born gay you are sinning against their God unless you elect to stay celibate all your life.

To be fair to them they are saying that acting on it is a sin. That's different to having homosexual feelings. And even if they believe that the actions are a sin, why is that homophobic?

What do you want them to say? Here's an except from the survey the article links to.
Aren't these the same attitudes the article compares to those of conservative Christians?

I can't see where Christians were asked about legality?

The Gallup Coexist Index 2009? In what way does that make it more accurate than more up to date polls? Is it because the later article didn't mention it by name when it said...?

The linked article only produced the methodology of one poll. It can't apply it to others, such as the Gallup poll.

The article links to this report:

http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/attitudes-towards-gay-rights/

View attachment 836000
That looks like a third of surveyed Christians disagreeing with same sex marriage to me. The report goes onto say that even if the respondents in question thought homosexuality should be legal, they shouldn't be allowed to be their neighbours/teachers/adopters of children or have equal opportunities. I don't see how different these views are from those expressed by older Muslims in the Ipsos Mori report.

That's same sex marriage, and if they agree with it. That's far from being the same thing as agreeing if homosexuality should be illegal

I'm not sure it's concluding anything of the sort. The report found older people held more conservative views wherever they were surveyed.

But it is saying that sampling from Muslim dominated areas is skewing the results negatively....

 

[UKMikey]

To be fair to them they are saying that acting on it is a sin. That's different to having homosexual feelings. And even if they believe that the actions are a sin, why is that homophobic?

Because it targets a demographic group regardless of their agency and indicates that they think they should live their lives in closeted denial. If you're unable to see how this is prejudicial then I'm not sure I can explain any further.

The linked article only produced the methodology of one poll. It can't apply it to others, such as the Gallup poll.

It only gives one poll (actually two) as examples and doesn't limit its conclusions to those two polls exclusively.

That's same sex marriage, and if they agree with it. That's far from being the same thing as agreeing if homosexuality should be illegal

Instead it's saying that they think homosexuals should be denied several basic human rights which are freely available to other groups.

How is that not homophobic?

But it is saying that sampling from Muslim dominated areas is skewing the results negatively....

But it concludes that younger people express more liberal attitudes regardless of where they live.

 

[TenEightyOne]

To be fair to them they are saying that acting on it is a sin. That's different to having homosexual feelings. And even if they believe that the actions are a sin, why is that homophobic?

You don't think it shows any prejudice at all? Really?

 

[UKMikey]

You don't think it shows any prejudice at all? Really?

Perhaps it's supposed to be those stupid gays' fault for refusing to embrace conversion therapy. If they have a choice in the matter, than how can they possibly be victims of prejudice?

 

[zzz_pt]

To be fair to them they are saying that acting on it is a sin. That's different to having homosexual feelings. And even if they believe that the actions are a sin, why is that homophobic?

According to muslims (or followers of any other abrahamic religion/sect) everyone but God/Mohammed/Jesus is a sinner and sins often throughout their lives.

But I don't see them worried about themselves or the people who kneel/sit beside them inside the mosque/church/sinagogue.

It's only gays for some reason. That specific sin is apparently worse. And the "sin" in question is a simple basic human behaviour, more often than not, involving feelings such as love and care, as any other human relationship between 2 consenting adults.

 

[PocketZeven]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48146305
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...he-worlds-most-persecuted-people-9630774.html
https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2...-persecuted-for-their-faith-report-finds.aspx

Surely if it was just a case of Christians being the largest religious group, then Christian inspired violence should be higher than Islamic inspired violence too....

I was reacting to the claim of 100's of millions killed by Muslims, what you failed to quote from my post. I am not arguing if christians are being persecuted. The report does reveal alarming data!

Where does it say that islam inspired violence is higher then christian inspired violence?

 

[TexRex]

To be fair to them they are saying that acting on it is a sin. That's different to having homosexual feelings. And even if they believe that the actions are a sin, why is that homophobic?

Christ on a bike! This is the intelligence thing all over again!

"My world view isn't supported by reality so reality must be wrong."

 

[FoRiZon]

Live now.

To give a context, you think that oppressed Xinjiang peoples in China are a pressing issue amongst muslim governments / countries, right? Western countries think so.

NOPE. Most of muslim countries actually supports China by denying it exists, as China will do. Gotta get and grind that sweet Chinese money right?

Proof that Muslim Brotherhood concept is just a myth, fake even.



Supporting videos:

 

[mustafur]

China has to be the most Orwellian Country to have ever existed, you could argue North Korea is, but China has the money and infustracture to really push their agenda to the living room.

 

[PocketZeven]

China has to be the most Orwellian Country to have ever existed, you could argue North Korea is, but China has the money and infustracture to really push their agenda to the living room.

China is a very mixed bag. You have lots of freedom to a certain degree and then the freedoms stop abruptly and there is severe punishment. If you live and work in China you wont notice it being orwellian at all. The postives are low crime and murders, but you all know all the flipside.

 

[Danoff]

China has to be the most Orwellian Country to have ever existed, you could argue North Korea is, but China has the money and infustracture to really push their agenda to the living room.

NK is definitely worse. Also, since we're going with "have ever" I'd go Soviet Union and Nazi Germany over present day China as well.

Edit:
Also probably Turkmenistan.

 

[PocketZeven]

NK is definitely worse. Also, since we're going with "have ever" I'd go Soviet Union and Nazi Germany over present day China as well.

Edit:
Also probably Turkmenistan.

I guess you've never been to china.

 

[TexRex]

I guess you've never been to china.

I seem to recall he has. Also, saying a thing is better than other horrible things is not saying that that thing is hunky-dunky-dory.

 

[PocketZeven]

I seem to recall he has. Also, saying a thing is better than other horrible things is not saying that that thing is hunky-dunky-dory.

Depends for what specific reasons one country is better then the other. I would understand his comment better if he is muslim.

 

[TexRex]

Depends for what specific reasons one country is better then the other. I would understand his comment better if he is muslim.

No it doesn't and he doesn't need to be; the latter coming perilously close to "your opinion doesn't count because it it doesn't affect you."

 

[PocketZeven]

No it doesn't and he doesn't need to be; the latter coming perilously close to "your opinion doesn't count because it it doesn't affect you."

No i didnt try to imply that at all. I was just trying to find out id he'd been there and why he has this opinion. Especially within the context of this thread.

 

[TexRex]

No i didnt try to imply that at all. I was just trying to find out id he'd been there and why he has this opinion. Especially within the context of this thread.

Except the opinion wasn't in the context of "Muslimity" so much as "Orwellness", and in that context, China, North Korea, the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany and Turkmenistan are all doubleplusungood.

 

[PocketZeven]

Except the opinion wasn't in the context of "Muslimity" so much as "Orwellness", and in that context, China, North Korea, the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany and Turkmenistan are all doubleplusungood.

So thats why I was curious if he'd been to china and why he'd pick it over the other mentioned countries.

Edit: also out of curiosity, what was wrong with the question?

 

[TexRex]

So thats why I was curious if he'd been to china and why he'd pick it over the other mentioned countries.

I have the nagging suspicion he's never been to the Soviet Union and I'm all but entirely sure he's never been to Nazi Germany. Having been somewhere is not the only basis on which an opinion of that place can be formed.

You should be addressing the statement and not the individual who made it. "Have you even--?" is just lazy.

Edit: And I'm done with this.

 

[PocketZeven]

I have the nagging suspicion he's never been to the Soviet Union and I'm all but entirely sure he's never been to Nazi Germany. Having been somewhere is not the only basis on which an opinion of that place can be formed.

You should be addressing the statement and not the individual who made it. "Have you even--?" is just lazy.

Edit: And I'm done with this.

Fair enough, but you started this conversation, about me trying to find out if he'd been to China. I was not directly criticising his opinion (because of lack of argumentation). But I am done with it too.

edit: also the individual and I have a history of discussions between eachother. A fact you perhaps didnt know.

 

[mustafur]

100% Confident with what I said about China, None of the countries mentioned have even a percent on China's surveillance infustracture, not only that they control their citizens very effectively when not at Home if they study abroad with there Student propaganda arm the "Confucious institute", the propaganda they use unlike what happened in Soviet Russia was very effective as well they have got alot of their people hooked on their propaganda.

Also if your going to mention countries like that @Danoff don't know how you missed Eritrea.