Islam - What's your view on it?

[mustafur]

That's a big question, there are a lot of aspects of the process and the stay. Overall I was surprised about the similarities between Chinese life and the US. I guess I was expecting something more foreign. I knew part of my trip would be in central China, and when I found out I would be taking a domestic flight for example, I didn't know whether to expect goats on the plane, a dirt runway, and a pilot sitting on a crate.

But no, of course there's an airfield of 747s, airport security that has basically the same rules and procedure as the US, terminals, concourses, and a McDonald's inside security. Of course. I guess I approached it with far fewer assumptions than many people do.

The thing is, there are no McDonalds in North Korea (although maybe that will change). I don't love McDonalds (or American fast food, or whatever), but the option is just not there. The option of eating at all is barely there. North Korea has a single (mostly empty) international airport serviced by 2 airlines with 4 total international destinations. Travel into and out of the country is tightly controlled. In China, you can tune in to CNN, BBC and CNBC (though granted not everything they broadcast makes it to Chinese citizens, censorship of those stations is of course a thing). CNN is not a thing for North Koreans. You get your news from North Korean Central Television, and that's it.

I'd wager none of us on this website have been to North Korea. It is wildly more controlled than China.

What about Tibet and Xinjiang?

Active population replacement and religious suppression is happening there.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I don't care to weigh in on religious discussions, but I will say that Islamic architecture is absolutely incredible, especially the stuff from the early years of Islam:

The complexity of the geometry is mind-bending, especially the Mosque in Isfahan.

 

[PocketZeven]

I don't care to weigh in on religious discussions, but I will say that Islamic architecture is absolutely incredible, especially the stuff from the early years of Islam:

The complexity of the geometry is mind-bending, especially the Mosque in Isfahan.

You are not even mentioning the worldchanging innovations from the middle east.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventions_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world

 

[Danoff]

What about Tibet and Xinjiang?

Active population replacement and religious suppression is happening there.

There is no religious freedom in North Korea of any kind.

"Punishable religious activities include propagating religion, possessing religious items, praying, singing hymns, and having contact with religious persons"

According to one report at least 200,000 Christians have gone missing since 1953

Pretty much whatever country is doing something bad, North Korea is doing worse.

Edit:

I actually personally witness a Buddhist blessing of a car at a temple (like the photo) while I was in China:

Meanwhile, one of the locals who was with us openly wore a Christian necklace at the Buddhist temple. Also several members of our group were Christian pastors, and were allowed into the country (having disclosed that fact) and inside the Buddhist temple.

By North Korean standards, that's time-to-go-away-forever type stuff.

I don't care to weigh in on religious discussions, but I will say that Islamic architecture is absolutely incredible, especially the stuff from the early years of Islam:

The complexity of the geometry is mind-bending, especially the Mosque in Isfahan.

Even for religious structures, I tend to view artwork as not being part of the religion. In many cases the option to NOT produce beautiful works of art for the oppressive religion of the region simply doesn't exist. So I wonder if there really is such a thing as "Islamic architecture". I mean, probably there is, but it seems tricky to identify. Similarly for Catholicism, etc.

You are not even mentioning the worldchanging innovations from the middle east.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventions_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world

Similar to the above, just because an innovation came from a region I would not automatically attribute it to a particular religion.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Even for religious structures, I tend to view artwork as not being part of the religion. In many cases the option to NOT produce beautiful works of art for the oppressive religion of the region simply doesn't exist. So I wonder if there really is such a thing as "Islamic architecture". I mean, probably there is, but it seems tricky to identify. Similarly for Catholicism, etc.

To be fair, Islamic architecture borrows heavily from the pre-Islamic cultures extant in the region (notably Persian). Those squinches are mighty fine though, still.

 

[PocketZeven]

There is no religious freedom in North Korea of any kind. I actually personally witnessed a Buddhist blessing





Pretty much whatever country is doing something bad, North Korea is doing worse.

Edit:

I actually personally witness a Buddhist blessing of a car at a temple (like the photo) while I was in China:

Meanwhile, one of the locals who was with us openly wore a Christian necklace at the Buddhist temple. Also several members of our group were Christian pastors, and were allowed into the country (having disclosed that fact) and inside the Buddhist temple.

By North Korean standards, that's time-to-go-away-forever type stuff.



Even for religious structures, I tend to view artwork as not being part of the religion. In many cases the option to NOT produce beautiful works of art for the oppressive religion of the region simply doesn't exist. So I wonder if there really is such a thing as "Islamic architecture". I mean, probably there is, but it seems tricky to identify. Similarly for Catholicism, etc.



Similar to the above, just because an innovation came from a region I would not automatically attribute it to a particular religion.

I purposely refererred to it as the "middle east"for that reason. The credit should go to the culture of which the region and religion are a part of. Like Islam is a part of arab culture not the other way around.

 

[mustafur]

There is no religious freedom in North Korea of any kind. I actually personally witnessed a Buddhist blessing





Pretty much whatever country is doing something bad, North Korea is doing worse.

Edit:

I actually personally witness a Buddhist blessing of a car at a temple (like the photo) while I was in China:

Meanwhile, one of the locals who was with us openly wore a Christian necklace at the Buddhist temple. Also several members of our group were Christian pastors, and were allowed into the country (having disclosed that fact) and inside the Buddhist temple.

By North Korean standards, that's time-to-go-away-forever type stuff.



Even for religious structures, I tend to view artwork as not being part of the religion. In many cases the option to NOT produce beautiful works of art for the oppressive religion of the region simply doesn't exist. So I wonder if there really is such a thing as "Islamic architecture". I mean, probably there is, but it seems tricky to identify. Similarly for Catholicism, etc.



Similar to the above, just because an innovation came from a region I would not automatically attribute it to a particular religion.

But can you honestly compare the parts of China you went to, to the parts it won't even let you go to.

 

[Danoff]

But can you honestly compare the parts of China you went to, to the parts it won't even let you go to.

There is no part of North Korea where you can exercise religious freedom. In no part of China that I went to (which was 4 cities) was religious freedom eliminated the way it is in North Korea. I don't know that they'd have tolerated just any religious practice, but certainly they tolerated some (Buddhism and Christianity I observed directly). Unlike 100% of NK. which tolerates zero religious freedom. You can't tune in to even censored international television in North Korea because they don't want you to see what people outside of North Korea are wearing, driving, eating. The clothes of the news anchors are problematic, banner ads are problematic, passing cars in the background of the shot are problematic.

There is no contest here. China is not free, not by a long shot, but it's unbelievably better than North Korea. If given the choice between North Korea and China, I'm moving to China every time. Every time. I don't need a heartbeat to think about it.

Honestly I'd take drastic steps to avoid visiting NK even for a short period. I wouldn't want to accidentally say something that gets me... suddenly ill.

Edit:

I mean, for crying out loud, I sent pictures of China back home to my family while I was there. If that were possible in NK (which I seriously doubt), it'd be entirely because I was foreign. While I china I had a chinese phone with a chinese sim accessing the internet the way everyone else does.

Radio or television sets which can be bought in North Korea are preset to receive only the government frequencies and sealed with a label to prevent tampering with the equipment. It is a serious criminal offence to manipulate the sets and receive radio or television broadcasts from outside North Korea. In a party campaign in 2003, the head of each party cell in neighborhoods and villages received instructions to verify the seals on all radio sets.[30]

According to the Daily NK, it is possible to broadcast news for North Korea through short-wave radio. Possessing a short-wave radio is against the law in North Korea, but the radios are allegedly confiscated and resold by corrupted agents of secret police.[32]

In 2006, Julien Pain, head of the Internet Desk at Reporters Without Borders, described North Korea as the world's worst Internet black hole,[46] in its list of the top 13 Internet enemies.[47]

Internet access is not generally available in North Korea. Only some high-level officials are allowed to access the global internet.[48] In most universities, a small number of strictly monitored computers are provided. Other citizens may get access only to the country's national intranet, called Kwangmyong.[49] Foreigners can access the internet using the 3G phone network.[50][51] However, the IT industry has been growing and Internet access is starting to increase within North Korea.[52]

Internet access is restricted to regime elites and select university students. The state has created its own substitute "internet" – Kwangmyong, but even this network is restricted to certain elite grade schools, select research institutions, universities, factories, and privileged individuals. Moreover, the intranet is filtered by the Korea Computer Center, which ensures that only information deemed acceptable by the government can be accessed through the network.[53]

The North Korean Ullim, an Android-based tablet computer available since 2014, has a high level of inbuilt surveillance and controls. The tablet takes screenshots of apps opened by the user and saves browsing history.[54]

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

There is no part of North Korea where you can exercise religious freedom. In no part of China that I went to (which was 4 cities) was religious freedom eliminated the way it is in North Korea. I don't know that they'd have tolerated just any religious practice, but certainly they tolerated some (Buddhism and Christianity I observed directly). Unlike 100% of NK. which tolerates zero religious freedom. You can't tune in to even censored international television in North Korea because they don't want you to see what people outside of North Korea are wearing, driving, eating. The clothes of the news anchors are problematic, banner ads are problematic, passing cars in the background of the shot are problematic.

There is no contest here. China is not free, not by a long shot, but it's unbelievably better than North Korea. If given the choice between North Korea and China, I'm moving to China every time. Every time. I don't need a heartbeat to think about it.

Honestly I'd take drastic steps to avoid visiting NK even for a short period. I wouldn't want to accidentally say something that gets me... suddenly ill.

Edit:

I mean, for crying out loud, I sent pictures of China back home to my family while I was there. If that were possible in NK (which I seriously doubt), it'd be entirely because I was foreign. While I china I had a chinese phone with a chinese sim accessing the internet the way everyone else does.

I'm inclined to agree...for example, Ai Weiwei exists. Granted, he faced extreme pressure from China and ultimately left, but there is nothing compatible from DPRK.

 

[PocketZeven]

I'm inclined to agree...for example, Ai Weiwei exists. Granted, he faced extreme pressure from China and ultimately left, but there is nothing compatible from DPRK.

I do have to admit that China is on a dangerous slope into moving to N-korea territory if the allegations are true about their treatment of Muslims. My experiences in China has always been that there arent alot of restrictions on practicing religion. But as an atheist I probably overlooked or was blind seeing those signals.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

From my perspective, religious extremism can be measured by how many degrees of seperation the extremists are connected to the mainstream religion. I don't know this for a fact, but I always imagined that from within a mosque that you'd only have to go down the chain 6 degrees or so of being vetted before finally getting into a group of militants that would facilitate your desire to commit a terrorist act.

A friend of mine was a lobbyists for a major christian church in Missouri and I jokingly asked him, how many phone calls it would take him to get me in touch with somebody that could facilitate blowing up an abortion clinic (something I would never do, I'm pro choice and not a psychopathic moron). Without hesitation he blurted out, "Three!" then he thought about it some more and said, "Actually, I could probably pull it off in two phone calls. I just remembered somebody."

So combine pro-life terrorism with white nationalist movement, who is quickly trying to radicalize disenfranchised white people to commit acts of terror and it's a no brainer which religion I fear the most.

So my view on Islam? It's another ridiculous religion. Technically a bad re-mix of Judea christian texts. The same con with a different outfit. However, I'm not scared of Islamic people. I'm far more worried about evangelical and white nationalist extremism.

 

[Dotini]

I do have to admit that China is on a dangerous slope into moving to N-korea territory if the allegations are true about their treatment of Muslims. My experiences in China has always been that there arent alot of restrictions on practicing religion. But as an atheist I probably overlooked or was blind seeing those signals.

You want Chinese persecution of religion? Check out what they do to the Falun Gong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong

degrees of seperation

At Mills, my mother was a student and close friend of Helene Meyer, who took orders directly from Adolph Hitler, but later defied them.

Helene Mayer, 1932 Stock Photo ...
alamy.com

 

[PocketZeven]

You want Chinese persecution of religion? Check out what they do to the Falun Gong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong

Have you ever seen the logo of the falungong, familiar?

 

[TexRex]

Have you ever seen the logo of the falungong, familiar?

It's seen in iconography all over, in many forms, and existed for a very long time prior to being appropriated by the Third Reich.

Edit: I actually addressed this elsewhere not too long ago.

 

[PocketZeven]

It's seen in iconography all over, in many forms, and existed for a very long time prior to being appropriated by the Third Reich.

Edit: I actually addressed this elsewhere not too long ago.

Thanks, but I actually can write some chinese. I know it has many origins and could fill pages and pages. In china it still exists in the vocabulary of chinese characters.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Thanks, but I actually can write some chinese. I know it has many origins and could fill pages and pages. In china it still exists in the vocabulary of chinese characters.

I thought the sauwastika was the Han character, not the swastika with its clockwise-facing arms?

 

[TexRex]

I thought the sauwastika was the Han character, not the swastika with its clockwise-facing arms?

The symbol pictured above certainly isn't the one appropriated by Nazis, as I'm sure isn't lost on you (or a number of others here for that matter), but I'd wager the majority of people who see either the sauwastika/sauvastika (as it relates to Buddhism among other uses) or the swastika (as it relates to Jainism among other uses) in its simplest form are going to immediately think of the Nazis...and that's what I think is so unfortunate. I think an effort should be [made*] to eradicate that confusion.

*Edit to add.

 

[PocketZeven]

The symbol pictured above certainly isn't the one appropriated by Nazis, as I'm sure isn't lost on you (or a number of others here for that matter), but I'd wager the majority of people who see either the sauwastika/sauvastika (as it relates to Buddhism among other uses) or the swastika (as it relates to Jainism among other uses) in its simplest form are going to immediately think of the Nazis...and that's what I think is so unfortunate. I think an effort should be to eradicate that confusion.

When it comes to iconography it is impossible to eradicate it. It is a part of history and personally I see it as something we all learn from. It is unfortunate, but mainly a western thing. The swastika in asia has very little connection to Nazi's. Coincidently I watch this video a few weeks ago that kinda shows the cultural differences:

 

[TexRex]

When it comes to iconography it is impossible to eradicate it.

Confusion.

 

[PocketZeven]

Confusion.

Apologies. I meant to say that its connection with Nazi's would be impossible to eradicate. I what what I was thinking writing that sentence.

 

[TexRex]

Apologies. I meant to say that its connection with Nazi's would be impossible to eradicate. I what what I was thinking writing that sentence.

I don't think that would be possible, and frankly I don't think that would be a worthwhile pursuit. There's an old saying about forgetting what happened in the past...

 

[PocketZeven]

I don't think that would be possible, and frankly I don't think that would be a worthwhile pursuit. There's an old saying about forgetting what happened in the past...

What wouldnt be possible? Now I am a bit confused.

But there also old sayings about learning from your mistakes.

 

[TexRex]

What wouldnt be possible? Now I am a bit confused.

Eliminating the link between the swastika and the Third Reich.

 

[PocketZeven]

Eliminating the link between the swastika and the Third Reich.

I agree, however werent you the one that supported an effort to eradicating it? Why suggest it, ony to say it wouldnt be possible?

I think an effort should be [made*] to eradicate that confusion.

*Edit to add.

In asia there is something similar ( less controversial ) with the japanese rising sun flag. A flag that has a deep link with WW2 and still in use. Imagine if Germany still used the Swastika though.

Imagine how the american flag is viewed in parts of the middle-east.

 

[TenEightyOne]

In asia there is something similar ( less controversial ) with the japanese rising sun flag. A flag that has a deep link with WW2 and still in use.

But isn't that the flag of the Japanese Navy? That's a military flag that's really no more or less controversial than a Red Ensign or a Luftwaffe cross, all used in WWII and all still in use today. I don't really see the comparison between the flag of a directed, military force and a symbol adopted by a dictatorial regime. I guess others don't either given the common acceptance of the military symbols today in comparison to the lack of acceptance of the swastika.

 

[PocketZeven]

But isn't that the flag of the Japanese Navy? That's a military flag that's really no more or less controversial than a Red Ensign or a Luftwaffe cross, all used in WWII and all still in use today. I don't really see the comparison between the flag of a directed, military force and a symbol adopted by a dictatorial regime. I guess others don't either given the common acceptance of the military symbols today in comparison to the lack of acceptance of the swastika.

View attachment 847161

To some asian countries it is still a symbol of the imperial japanese occupation.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...a-protests-over-rising-sun-flag-idUSKCN1MF0D7

 

[TexRex]

I agree, however werent you the one that supported an effort to eradicating it? Why suggest it, ony to say it wouldnt be possible?

Confusion. I said absolutely nothing of eradicating the symbol or even any particular association. It seems to me entirely too many people see the symbol (even in the "wrong" (re: "Nazi") orientation) and immediately associate it with Nazis, even to the point of ignoring its other uses now and through history. The association ought not be discounted, but it also ought not override others.

Good grief.

 

[PocketZeven]

Confusion. I said absolutely nothing of eradicating the symbol or even any particular association. It seems to me entirely too many people see the symbol (even in the "wrong" (re: "Nazi") orientation) and immediately associate it with Nazis, even to the point of ignoring its other uses now and through history. The association ought not be discounted, but it also ought not override others.

Good grief.

I guess there was a misunderstanding. I did not suggest eradicating the symbol, but reacting to you call to put effort into eradicating the link between the third reich and swastika, not the swastika itself.

 

[TexRex]

I guess there was a misunderstanding. I did not suggest eradicating the symbol, but reacting to you call to put effort into eradicating the link between the third reich and swastika, not the swastika itself.

Except I made no assertion that the link be eradicated. I've been referring to confusion for as long as I've said anything of eradication.

I sure hope this is cleared up now, since when I specified confusion I had no reason to suspect this back-and-forth would follow.

 

[HenrySwanson]

It illustrates built-in bias in testing.

And it's not the least bit surprising that you opted to address only that part of the post.

So it's biased because there is no universal testing for the admittedly different groups....And even then the biased argument would favour whites doing better when it's actually consistently found that East Asians outperform them....

You have to remember I've given links to studies that take into account biases such as the response test

Does that also mean that all other tests are biased when testing other metrics?